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November-Movement Discussion Thread


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2 minutes ago, Ultrajesus said:

También vamos a prohibirte a ti también, por el bien de prohibir cosas al azar.

I'm going to explain something to you (So that you understand I would explain it to you with drawings, but the forum does not allow it). Well, suppose your win Condition for you, is a Gyarados, against a Garchomp under a sandstorm, Garchomp is not damaged or intimidated and with a waterfall you don't do ohko, you are slower, it makes you 2hko ... Well, now suppose that ice fang is your only option, do you follow me there? Ice fang has a chance to fail, and with sandstorm + sand veil those chances can find even more. Failures, they make you 2hko ... In case you didn't understand, it's a hax ability, and the game is about ability, not rng. If you don't even know that, don't give your opinion, focus on asking to learn, thank you.

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2 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

I'm going to explain something to you (So that you understand I would explain it to you with drawings, but the forum does not allow it). Well, suppose your win Condition for you, is a Gyarados, against a Garchomp under a sandstorm, Garchomp is not damaged or intimidated and with a waterfall you don't do ohko, you are slower, it makes you 2hko ... Well, now suppose that ice fang is your only option, do you follow me there? Ice fang has a chance to fail, and with sandstorm + sand veil those chances can find even more. Failures, they make you 2hko ... In case you didn't understand, it's a hax ability, and the game is about ability, not rng. If you don't even know that, don't give your opinion, focus on asking to learn, thank you.

Yes, I know that Garchomp is a great user of Sand Veil and it's a bit uncompetitive but the thing is: Sword Dance on Garchomp is no more a thing. He doesn't have the opportunity to put a Substitute and boost his attack while all the attacks fails to hit him. Of course, Hone Claws is a thing but it's not so powerful as Swords dance so...

Let's wait a bit; if the ability is definitely broken it should be quick banned again, but if not then let it be.

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7 minutes ago, Ultrajesus said:

.Sword Dance on Garchomp is no more a thing.

Exactly, you're absolutely right, Gliscor doesn't access Sword Dance either, right?
If you are going to say that my point is invalid, I would appreciate a minimum review that pokémon have this ability and how they would be favored. Don't just stick with Garchomp's example.

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7 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Exactly, you're absolutely right, Gliscor doesn't access Sword Dance either, right?
If you are going to say that my point is invalid, I would appreciate a minimum review that pokémon have this ability and how they would be favored. Don't just stick with Garchomp's example.

We just had the change happen. Before assuming stuff, lets wait for a couple weeks and see what ladder players say about it after experiencing it for real.

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15 minutes ago, EricRasp said:

We just had the change happen. Before assuming stuff, lets wait for a couple weeks and see what ladder players say about it after experiencing it for real.

I still believe that we will have a hard month if the sand veil is enabled, but you are also right, we will have to see...

27 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

Im sure glad garchomp is back to save us from hydreigon 

I hope so

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On 10/25/2020 at 7:15 PM, ThinkNicer said:

Im gonna lose my mind if this tc will allow Hydra further. Oh I already know what the excuse is going to be. 'We know that Garchomp will be moving down soon which magically makes Hydreigon not the threat it used to be and everyrhing is fine. We will need to examine the metagame for the next 5 months to see how Garchomp affects the viability of Hydreigon'

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Edited by Ultrajesus
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I don't think people understand what is the issue about sand veil. 

It's not broken in the uber sense of the word. It's not op in the sense that gives you more wins. In fact, statistically, its crap.

However, it completely removes any control a player might have over the course of some turns just for the sake of it (And not an added effect, let's say, ice beam freeze), which means its uncompetitive. And please note that being uncompetitive is much different than being broken, and both are not mutually exclusive.

Ofc the degree of uncompetitiveness is subjective (looking at you gbwead), but please don't come with "broken or not" arguments on an uncompetitive mechanic because it doesn't make sense at all.

Edited by pachima
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@MunyaI don't understand the ban of Mienfoo. 
There is a lot of difference between an useful pokemon and a broken pokemon. 
In the case of Mienfoo in LC, the pokemon is USEFUL, as it keeps the momentum of the game, it can knock off, have a priority, can sd and sub, have a good speed... 
When you see that, you understand why Mienfoo is used by player. 
But, in each team, you have 1, 2, 3 counters to mienfoo ! It get countered by a lot of poison type (arena trap is in the gam ? Mienfoo will rise in the usage as the counters can be trapped and killed and what happened when AT was not disabled anymore ? Mienfoo rised in usage by 15/20%), by a lot of ghosts type (yamask, gastly, frillish), is threatened by the second most played poke : vullaby, threathened by a lot of mon faster than him : staryu whith psychic, ponyta wow,  for example... 
So, the pokemon is not broken, it's useful for the team.

What I want to know here, who, in the tier council, has voted for the ban the mienfoo and who was against.
I want to know who are these players. If they actually play LC and how many they were.
Thank you. 

Edited by Stelian
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5 minutes ago, Stelian said:

@MunyaI don't understand the ban of Mienfoo. 
There is a lot of difference between an useful pokemon and a broken pokemon. 
In the case of Mienfoo in LC, the pokemon is USEFUL, as it keeps the momentum of the game, it can knock off, have a priority, can sd and sub, have a good speed... 

This fits Uber support characteristics.

5 minutes ago, Stelian said:

But, in each team, you have 1, 2, 3 counters to mienfoo ! 

And this is called centralization.

 

6 minutes ago, Stelian said:

But, in each team, you have 1, 2, 3 counters to mienfoo ! It get countered by a lot of poison type 

Finally this is not true. Sd Mienfoo, for instance, can remove most of those poison types.

 

The only thing that could eventually go against a mienfoo ban this month is the fact Arena Trap got banned as well. Without AT mienfoo is certainly not the complete insane batshit it was, but after gathering yours and other arguments, I believe it is safe to at least consider it Uber support.

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I actually don’t think mienfoo fits Uber support, I think something like wobbu with the old shadow tag fits Uber support better. A huge part of foo’s appeal is that it can hold its own with a solid move pool and attack, even though forcing switches, bouncing in and out while regaining health is also very useful. Overall though it seems to fit overcentralizing and unhealthy to a greater degree - it’s hard for a meta game to evolve and grow if one pokemon is stifling team building so much that 80% of people slap it on by default, and if it’s also considered normal to devote two, three teamslots to answer it lol 

 

Again, best way to deal with this kind of suspect is to test ban for a month or two and look at usage post ban. How does the tier look - if 6-10 new Pokémon see a nice rise in usage to fill the void, that’s good! Diversity is healthy 

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Upload Untier to Mienfoo, 1 day before TT, when this month there is LC ... I'm not bad with their ban (However, I would have preferred just nerf), but I think they banned it one day before a major tournament is a Error... I hope the next time you want to change something important, you will do it with the change of month

Edited by DiosSlurpuff
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38 minutes ago, pachima said:

And this is called centralization.

 

Finally this is not true. Sd Mienfoo, for instance, can remove most of those poison types.

 

The only thing that could eventually go against a mienfoo ban this month is the fact Arena Trap got banned as well. Without AT mienfoo is certainly not the complete insane batshit it was, but after gathering yours and other arguments, I believe it is safe to at least consider it Uber support.

What you called centralization is not. These counters work for all the fighting type and are an integral part of the synergy of a lot of teams and have a lot of utilities, other than stop mienfoo. 
- Vullaby won't be played as much with the ban of mienfoo ? No, it will be played more as is nearby the only efficient user of knock off for bronzor left. 
- Gastly, frillish, yamask won't be as much with the ban of meinfoo ? No, they still have their utility to hit hard (Gastly), check all the water types and clamperl (frillish) and toxik spikes/memento yamask. 
Etc Etc Etc... 

So, why SD mienfoo is not played as much ? If it has SD, it can't do the work against a lot mon as it has not u-turn or knock off and will be countered by a lot of faster pokemon as Mienfoo won't have eviolite for the bulk and flying gem. 

Even with Arena trap, mienfoo is not an insane batshit. With arena trap, it HELPS the team to work. With your definition of mienfoo, having a mienfoo in you team give you better chances to win if you kill the mienfoo in face, the answer is no. 
It's not uber material here. 

Edited by Stelian
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12 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Upload Untier to Mienfoo, 1 day before TT, when this month there is LC ... I'm not bad with their ban (However, I would have preferred just nerf), but I think they banned it one day before a major tournament is a Error... I hope the next time you want to change something important, you will do it with the change of month

Can't because it is done manually and TT this month would have ended after the clock rolls over.  That said Bear is looking into options for Foo in TT.   It might see an unban for it since we don't have LC matchmaking.

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49 minutes ago, pachima said:

This fits Uber support characteristics.

What you call uber characteristics is when a pokemon have a lot of set and has not counter cause it's too much powerful : LF hydreigon in OU.
Mienfoo has naturally always counters if you can teambuild, that's the difference. 

 

Edited by Stelian
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4 hours ago, Stelian said:

What I want to know here, who, in the tier council, has voted for the ban the mienfoo and who was against.
I want to know who are these players. If they actually play LC and how many they were.
Thank you. 

@Munyacould you answer to this question please. 

Edited by Stelian
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3 hours ago, Stelian said:

What you call uber characteristics is when a pokemon have a lot of set and has not counter cause it's too much powerful : LF hydreigon in OU.
Mienfoo has naturally always counters if you can teambuild, that's the difference. 

 

What you are describing doesn't = Uber support, which is what pachima mentioned. Completely different things.

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10 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

What you are describing doesn't = Uber support, which is what pachima mentioned. Completely different things.

So, Pachima puts SD Mienfoo as counter to poison type.. But if it has SD, it's not a support. 
With u-turn, mienfoo is not dangerous at all. It brings momentum like all the mon that have u-turn/volt switch. As it's a fighting type and is looked for, it is useful to the team. It doesn't hit hard. 
So where is the problem ? The only thing I can agree is when arena trap is in the tier, mienfoo can be a uber support. Not when it's banned. If you ban mienfoo when you ban Arena trap, there is a huge problem. 
And where was the last time Pachima and you played LC ? 
All i see here is people who don't play the tier talking about it. 

Edited by Stelian
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2 minutes ago, Stelian said:

So, Pachima puts SD Mienfoo as counter to poison type.. But if it has SD, it's not a support. 
With u-turn, mienfoo is not dangerous at all. It brings momentum like all the mon that have u-turn/volt switch. 
It doesn't hit hard. 
So where is the problem ? 
And where was the last time Pachima and you played LC ? 
All i see here is people who don't play the tier talking about it. 

The difference between U-Turn from Mienfoo and U-turn/Volt Switch from something else, is that Mienfoo can do it better and for longer, healing itself everytime it pivots on something. Mienfoo might not be dangerous on its own, but it enables other dangerous mons to come in freely, after it sponges a hit from most of the meta. It's also the premier Knock Off user and has Fake Out to deal with some setup sweepers. The problem with it is that it has become too splashable, to the point where you see it in 80% of the teams. I don't play LC here because I think it's a waste of resources breeding for a tier with no matchmaking and the occasional tournament worth playing once in a while, and also Devs just look at it as a joke. I've played LC from gens 5 to 7 and I have a set of eyes which enable me to spectate matches and analyze the metagame. You seem really bothered by this ban, I hope you can teambuild in the future without effortlessly putting a Mienfoo on the 6th slot.

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