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How Conkeldurr invalidates pure Hyper Offense


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44 minutes ago, Abhuday said:

Removing flame orb + conkeldurr and toxic orb + conkeldurr and removing ability guts does the same thing. They both stop conkeldurr from boosting it's attack from 211 to 316.5 . As you say guts is defining trait of conkeldurr so I also think that it will be good to ban flame orb and toxic orb for conkeldurr.

 

8 minutes ago, Kaitha said:

Can’t you see the difference? Lmfao

Hmm I was mistaken. I have recalculated it . (Sorry for that mistake)

 

40 minutes ago, pachima said:

It doesnt double attack lmao.

 

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252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 222-262 (63.2 - 74.6%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 148-175 (42.1 - 49.8%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 192-227 (54.7 - 64.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 169-199 (48.1 - 56.6%)

Sheer Force doesn't make Conk that much weaker. Makes it weaker in STABs but stronger in coverage. So that's something to consider.

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2 hours ago, Abhuday said:

Removing flame orb + conkeldurr and toxic orb + conkeldurr and removing ability guts does the same thing. They both stop conkeldurr from boosting it's attack from 211 to 316.5 . As you say guts is defining trait of conkeldurr so I also think that it will be good to ban flame orb and toxic orb for conkeldurr.

That is not true. As stated above removing Guts enables burn as a way to deal with Conk. Lefties Guts can be as oppressive for the meta as Flame Orb Guts Imo. Not even Haze Cofa can 100% counter Lefties Bulk Up Guts.

 

5 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 222-262 (63.2 - 74.6%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 148-175 (42.1 - 49.8%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 192-227 (54.7 - 64.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 169-199 (48.1 - 56.6%)

Sheer Force doesn't make Conk that much weaker. Makes it weaker in STABs but stronger in coverage. So that's something to consider.

To add to that: CB Sheer Force Conk can reliable OHKO Bold Mence and full HP Gengar with Ice Punch without Rocks iirc (even tho it might be niche). This way we keep Mach to keep Hydreigon in check as well.

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Let's just change Guts so that it only lasts for 3 turns? Also, sheer force on conk can only work for stab moves. Let's shave its Attack down by 10 BP too. Mach punch with conk - now does 30 BP instead of 40. Done - easy, simple, not complex at all. I see no problems with any of this, but if anyone would like to respond with arguments as to why they truly know what is the problem with conk, please feel free. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Been gone for a while, this isn't think nice's alt account Is it? I feel like think nice wouldn't post something like this.

 

Also is pokemmo nerfing Pokemon because they kill a subset of a team archetype? I feel like if offensive teams is still valid but HO isn't so much so that's not really an issue is it?

 

P.S.

Love the fact that they are complex banning now. I spent a lot of time in my younger days fighting for this

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On 10/17/2020 at 4:24 AM, Rache said:

I think my biggest question with Conkeldurr is "what exactly makes it overwheming"? Like with most discussions around complex bans (outright removals in our case), there are several ways to effectively nerf it, but it's difficult to determine which trait is the one that pushes it over the edge. Conkeldurr isn't a straightforward Pokemon, there are multiple things that make it as good as it is.

  • If you take away Mach Punch, it's more vulnerable to being outsped and hit hard by faster threats. Worth noting though, this option ruins existing Conks forever if it's re-added to its learnset later due to it being an egg move.
  • If you take away Drain Punch, it's no longer absurdly resilient. Damage on it becomes permanent without team support, making it much less capable of applying constant pressure, allowing it to beat fewer things 1v1, and making sacking something healthy to it less devastating.
  • If you take away Guts or Flame/Toxic Orb compatibility, is this actually enough to unbreak it? It weakens both of the above moves a bit if it's running Life Orb and makes Facade unviable, but the Pokemon itself still largely functions the same way.

We can take something away from it if it's determined to be broken, but which one (if any) is the right one and why? What makes it a better solution than the rest?

 

Note: This isn't a confirmation that something will be done to it.

 

Personally, I think the way to go is to remove Guts from Conkeldurr. 

 

I don't think LO Sheer Force is that much weaker, but it definitely performs differently and in a healthier way. An important consideration is that without Guts, it is actually vulnerable to status. A huge strength of Guts with Flame Orb is that Conk can't be crippled. Giving it room to be hit by toxics and burns that debuff it (instead of buffing it) would give it some needed counterplay. Additionally, Drain Punch sustains a little less with Life Orb because you take 10% from using Drain Punch instead of the 6% from burn ticks. Leftovers + Bulk Up is probably worse than a LO set because again, there is room for Conk to be crippled.

 

Mach Punch is also significantly weaker without Guts because it doesn't benefit from Sheer Force. I think removing Mach Punch (and keeping Guts) would definitely be overkill. Although part of what's so strong about Conk is that chipped fast threats can't come in to finish it off, if Mach Punch was indirectly nerfed by Conk losing Guts, there would be more room to threaten it out. 

 

Removing Guts also has the added benefit of not invalidating current Conkeldurr, as you pointed out could happen by removing Mach Punch. Compared to disallowing the use of Flame Orb and/or Toxic Orb, it's also more intuitive that Conkeldurr simply doesn't have Guts rather than it arbitrarily not being allowed to have a certain hold item. The more isolated the changes are, the better they are. Disallowing Flame/Toxic Orb involves another factor (items), and removing Guts keeps the changes limited to Conkeldurr itself.

 

 

 

 

Edited by ihzi
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There hasn't been honestly too much chatter in the thread here about Conkeldurr. In my experience, Conk is a teambuilding nightmare and you have to bring at least 2 checks on your team and even at that it can still be a prediction nightmare. New additions to PokeMMO with the most recent update threaten Conkeldurr, namely Hurricane Salamence (although unreliable 70% accuracy outside of rain) and Nasty Plot Hydreigon, meaning Hydreigon needs to have chip damage for Conkeldurr to feel safe. While these aren't surefire answers to this offensive behemoth, it does add some sense of reliability. 

 

Previousy, Conkeldurr had numerous set up opportunities in the face of Draco Meteor Hydreigon, as it loved coming in after a sack with a -2 SpAtt drop for a free Bulk Up. It also freely switched in on commonly played Pokemon like Tyranitar, Blissey, Chansey, and Ferrothorn. Common checks include Rocky Helmet Gliscor or Hippowdon, although neither can truly stop a Bulk Up set (excluding Whirlwind Hippo that takes chip damage in the process), also included are Bold Reuniclus, Salamence, Pelipper, Gengar, Skarmory and Cofagrigus. Unfortunately, Gliscor, Salamence, Pelipper, and Gengar can easily be one shot by coverage moves thanks to Guts, so that's where the prediction comes in. Reuniclus is 2hko'd by Guts Facade and Skarmory can be 2hko'd by Guts Close Combat. Cofagrigus remains the most the closest thing to a counter, thanks to Hex + Mummy.

 

Offensive teams struggle with Conkeldurr as a Guts-boosted Mach Punch threatens many offensive pokemon and switching safely kills momentum. Scarf mons like Garchomp, Infernape, Gengar, Rotom-Wash, and Hydreigon all become set up bait or predicted switches once Conk is in against them.

 

The best way to handle Conkeldurr as noted above is to carry at least 2 checks (there is no true counter, excluding Cofagrigus) and to play extremely smart. Chip damage is your friend, as Conk is losing health to Flame Orb every turn it attacks, and despite resisting Stealth Rocks, that 6.25% damage is handy. Add in Sandstorm and suddenly Conkeldurr is begging for Drain Punch recovery.

 

Are we all willing to play with something that restricts play so much? I've personally won many matches with Conk and lost many matches to Conk. It's a great Pokemon, but is it just too great?

 

Spoiler

Possible remedies include: Ban to Ubers or modify to remove either GUTS, Mach Punch, Bulk Up, or Drain Punch among others.

 

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:11 PM, DoubleJ said:

There hasn't been honestly too much chatter in the thread here about Conkeldurr. In my experience, Conk is a teambuilding nightmare and you have to bring at least 2 checks on your team and even at that it can still be a prediction nightmare. New additions to PokeMMO with the most recent update threaten Conkeldurr, namely Hurricane Salamence (although unreliable 70% accuracy outside of rain) and Nasty Plot Hydreigon, meaning Hydreigon needs to have chip damage for Conkeldurr to feel safe. While these aren't surefire answers to this offensive behemoth, it does add some sense of reliability. 

 

Previousy, Conkeldurr had numerous set up opportunities in the face of Draco Meteor Hydreigon, as it loved coming in after a sack with a -2 SpAtt drop for a free Bulk Up. It also freely switched in on commonly played Pokemon like Tyranitar, Blissey, Chansey, and Ferrothorn. Common checks include Rocky Helmet Gliscor or Hippowdon, although neither can truly stop a Bulk Up set (excluding Whirlwind Hippo that takes chip damage in the process), also included are Bold Reuniclus, Salamence, Pelipper, Gengar, Skarmory and Cofagrigus. Unfortunately, Gliscor, Salamence, Pelipper, and Gengar can easily be one shot by coverage moves thanks to Guts, so that's where the prediction comes in. Reuniclus is 2hko'd by Guts Facade and Skarmory can be 2hko'd by Guts Close Combat. Cofagrigus remains the most the closest thing to a counter, thanks to Hex + Mummy.

 

Offensive teams struggle with Conkeldurr as a Guts-boosted Mach Punch threatens many offensive pokemon and switching safely kills momentum. Scarf mons like Garchomp, Infernape, Gengar, Rotom-Wash, and Hydreigon all become set up bait or predicted switches once Conk is in against them.

 

The best way to handle Conkeldurr as noted above is to carry at least 2 checks (there is no true counter, excluding Cofagrigus) and to play extremely smart. Chip damage is your friend, as Conk is losing health to Flame Orb every turn it attacks, and despite resisting Stealth Rocks, that 6.25% damage is handy. Add in Sandstorm and suddenly Conkeldurr is begging for Drain Punch recovery.

 

Are we all willing to play with something that restricts play so much? I've personally won many matches with Conk and lost many matches to Conk. It's a great Pokemon, but is it just too great?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Possible remedies include: Ban to Ubers or modify to remove either GUTS, Mach Punch, Bulk Up, or Drain Punch among others.

 

Anything happened with this since behind closed doors? Or no.. I was opposed but now after thinking a bit more I am interested in a conk test ban tbh

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