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ThinkNicer

How Conkeldurr invalidates pure Hyper Offense

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There he is again going off about Conkeldurr. Now that the discussion around Hydreigon has mostly been 'completed', I would like to talk about Conk, which has been the bane of my existence in teambuilding. It is not because Conkeldurr is impossible to wall, but that it's raw power output and bulk makes it very hard to deal with this mon for a HO team.

 

To clarify a HO (Hyper Offense) team differentiates itself from offense teams by forgoing any kind of 'wall' or 'defensive pivot' and in stead not letting up the pressure with fast and hard hitting Pokémon. Offense teams can run a defensive Pokemon like Bold Jelliscent or Rotom. Or something like Gastrodon to act as glue. While HO could also utilize these Pokémon it would be as offensive variants. So they won't have defensive natures or items like Leftovers. Offensive teams therefore have more options to check Conkeldurr, while HO teams have absolutely no switch ins.

 

Now you are probably thinking, how is Conk different from any other hard hitting mon? It's normal for HO teams to aggressively sack mons or take a lot of damage on switching in. This is true, but Conk is different from most mons because it combines multiple favorable facets, making it a complete monster.

 

1. Conk has the typing and bulk to take a hit and kill back.

Mono fighting type has a resistance to Stealth Rocks and two weaknesses that are both not very common in the metagame. Flying and Psychic. Our most common Psychic user is Reuniclus and it has the problem that it is much slower than Conk. On a HO team, Reuni would run LO, and this is how it looks when Reuniclus switches in.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 172 HP / 84 Def Reuniclus: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 24.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 172 HP / 84 Def Reuniclus: 302-356 (74.7 - 88.1%)

Yes, offensive Reuni can't afford to switch in on a resisted hit, because it dies to Facade after. This is a common story for every Pokémon that somewhat checks Conk in HO teams.

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 157-185 (44.3 - 52.2%)

0 Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 308-366 (81 - 96.3%)

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (46.7 - 55.1%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 65-77 (24.9 - 29.5%)

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-351 (77.8 - 92.3%)

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 287-338 (109.9 - 129.5%)

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Conkeldurr: 207-243 (54.4 - 63.9%)

 

These are the few Pokémon that can come in on conk, but only Starmie and Gliscor have a chance to OHKO. Almost nothing else safe from Golurk can come in on Conk in a HO team. Every time Conk is on the field against a HO team, it's a 50/50. But this alone is not enough do differentiate Conk, there are a lot of Pokémon that have immense offensive pressure that can kill anything a HO team has. Which brings me to my second point.

 

2. Conk has immediate power without opportunity cost

Many unwallable Pokémon come with a cost. Take CB Darmanitan for instance, incredible power with Flare Blitz, but it damages itself hard while SR makes it harder for it to come in repeatedly as well. Lucario is a very threatening Pokémon after a set up, and so are Pokémon like Dragonite and Scizor. Most Pokémon need an item like Life Orb to really put a dent in teams, or a choice item. But Conk only needs Flame Orb and his signature move even heals him. A wallbreaker like Specs Hydreigon locks itself into Draco, which leaves it wide open to attack. In fact, HO benefits from all Choice locked Pokémon. But Conk has its power without having to lock itself into anything, and it doesn't have problems like recoil or a SR weakness. Many setup Pokemon are frail and/or weak to priority moves, again Conk doesn't have this problem. Setup Pokemon can also often be countered because they are missing a crucial coverage move. While Conk has all 4 slots free for attack. And all its needs for HO is Mach / Drain / SE / Facade. The only shortcoming Conk has is its speed. And even then Conk enjoys its slow speed because it can soak up a hit and heal back with Drain Punch, and Mach Punch can do even 1/4th on offensive Pokémon that resist it.

 

3. Conk beats Focus Sashers

This might seem like a minor boon, but because we are talking about HO it is actually quite relevant. Sashers are very important on any offensive team and Conk basically invalidates them. Of course Pokémon like Mamoswine also have this niche, but Mamoswine doesn't have the same benefits as Conk as we listed in point 1 and 2. The thing about sashers is that they can take a hit from a locked mon, or they can come in as a pokemon sets up. But none of these things matter because Conk ignores all these rules and has all the benefits without the drawbacks. All in all, Conk will almost always trade 1 for 1,5 against HO (thanks to Mach Punch) and that's a really big deal.

 

If HO had more options to deal with a threat like this, to have more chances to outplay the conk player I wouldn't think it was worth looking at. But the fact is that we lack such things, like the Lati twins, Lando-T,  or even poison heal on gliscor. Speaking of things we don't have, it's worth it to look at the BW meta, to see how HO teams there have adapted to Conk. After all Conk has access to all of the same moves and items.

 

The short answer to how BW HO teams deal with Conk is..... they don't. Because Conk is a Pokemon that is not used in the BW OU metagame at all. Conk simply does not have the power to get through Regenerator walls like Amounggus, Slowbro or Tangrowth. Psychic types are more prominent with Celebi, Jirachi, Alakazam, Latios and Crescelia. And while the coverage of Stone Edge and Facade is enough to cover offense teams in PokeMMO. Ice Punch is crucial for conk forcing it to drop either Stone Edge or Facade. Conk is just a very bad Pokémon against balance, stall and offense. Probably only being alright at dealing with HO. Which is why Conk hasn't been used once in 10 weeks of SPL (the OG PSL).

 

We lack all of these Pokémon so our meta is wildly different. Even offense has very limited capabilities of dealing with Conk and most of them are very passive. Like RH Reuni, RH Gliscor or Jelliscent. I'd argue that Cofagrigus is even too passive of a Pokémon to have on a offensive team, even as a pivot. So really, for offensive teams there is not much room to experiment, which leaves the OU meta stale with balance and stall being the best options.

 

But Conk of course is not invincible. It has a hard time coming in on non-resistant hits and it needs one turn in the game to activate Guts. Even against offense though, balanced and stall teams can find multiple opportunities to get Conk in safely. Like on a SR, Taunts or U-turns, or set up moves like DDance or SD all very common moves in HO teams. With the new addition of Teleport, most teams can even activate Guts without risk. Anyway this small paragraph is all I could come up with for Conks weaknesses. I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on this as well.

 

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So, hypothetically if this thing is decided to be banworthy, what do you think would unbreak the mon, for the current meta, so no legendary wishes out of this hypothetical please.


Preferably, at least in my opinion not sure what devs think, in the least pokemon altering way, so fewest changes possible.

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10 hours ago, Munya said:

So, hypothetically if this thing is decided to be banworthy, what do you think would unbreak the mon, for the current meta, so no legendary wishes out of this hypothetical please.


Preferably, at least in my opinion not sure what devs think, in the least pokemon altering way, so fewest changes possible.

Maybe banning Mach Punch on it or preventing it from running Flame Orb.  Removing Mach Punch on Conk makes it easier to be revenge killed.  If you stop Conk from using Flame Orb, it could still activate Guts by using Toxic Orb but at the cost of an increased 6% chip per turn.

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On 10/13/2020 at 7:52 PM, ThinkNicer said:

These are the few Pokémon that can come in on conk, but only Starmie and Gliscor have a chance to OHKO. Almost nothing else safe from Golurk can come in on Conk in a HO team. Every time Conk is on the field against a HO team, it's a 50/50. But this alone is not enough do differentiate Conk, there are a lot of Pokémon that have immense offensive pressure that can kill anything a HO team has. Which brings me to my second point.

I do agree with most points you make but Imo it would be false to review Conkeldurr and HO in a vacuum. The Problem for HO is not "only" Conk, even tho it certainly is something that limits teambuildings and can rip certain HO teams apart for sure. The combination of Conk and Rotom-W is actually what pretty much shuts down HO teams as an archtype to a certain extend. SD Glis always had a huge pressure when it came in on Conk and could potentially sweep depending on the set (Taunt vs Agility mostly) and therefore matchup but Rotom-W just shuts it down so hard it is rarely a reliable option. Starmie most certainly doesn't like Rotom-W as well and that just enables Conk to oppress HO as much as it does. Before Sinnoh I had no problem building and running HO teams that worked well despite Conk, the new pairing made it a lot worse tho.

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11 hours ago, Munya said:

So, hypothetically if this thing is decided to be banworthy, what do you think would unbreak the mon, for the current meta, so no legendary wishes out of this hypothetical please.


Preferably, at least in my opinion not sure what devs think, in the least pokemon altering way, so fewest changes possible.

fairy types

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I think my biggest question with Conkeldurr is "what exactly makes it overwheming"? Like with most discussions around complex bans (outright removals in our case), there are several ways to effectively nerf it, but it's difficult to determine which trait is the one that pushes it over the edge. Conkeldurr isn't a straightforward Pokemon, there are multiple things that make it as good as it is.

  • If you take away Mach Punch, it's more vulnerable to being outsped and hit hard by faster threats. Worth noting though, this option ruins existing Conks forever if it's re-added to its learnset later due to it being an egg move.
  • If you take away Drain Punch, it's no longer absurdly resilient. Damage on it becomes permanent without team support, making it much less capable of applying constant pressure, allowing it to beat fewer things 1v1, and making sacking something healthy to it less devastating.
  • If you take away Guts or Flame/Toxic Orb compatibility, is this actually enough to unbreak it? It weakens both of the above moves a bit if it's running Life Orb and makes Facade unviable, but the Pokemon itself still largely functions the same way.

We can take something away from it if it's determined to be broken, but which one (if any) is the right one and why? What makes it a better solution than the rest?

 

Note: This isn't a confirmation that something will be done to it.

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5 hours ago, CHUCKunso said:

I do agree with most points you make but Imo it would be false to review Conkeldurr and HO in a vacuum. The Problem for HO is not "only" Conk, even tho it certainly is something that limits teambuildings and can rip certain HO teams apart for sure. The combination of Conk and Rotom-W is actually what pretty much shuts down HO teams as an archtype to a certain extend. SD Glis always had a huge pressure when it came in on Conk and could potentially sweep depending on the set (Taunt vs Agility mostly) and therefore matchup but Rotom-W just shuts it down so hard it is rarely a reliable option. Starmie most certainly doesn't like Rotom-W as well and that just enables Conk to oppress HO as much as it does. Before Sinnoh I had no problem building and running HO teams that worked well despite Conk, the new pairing made it a lot worse tho.

I can see that, but I still think Conk is the root of this problem. Wash still does not enjoy strong psychic STAB from Starmie, Slowbro or Alakazam. But the last 2 arent even viable because they are missing HA. Wash is a strong pivot because it pairs so well with many attackers, helping them all out basically. 

 

16 hours ago, Munya said:

So, hypothetically if this thing is decided to be banworthy, what do you think would unbreak the mon, for the current meta, so no legendary wishes out of this hypothetical please.


Preferably, at least in my opinion not sure what devs think, in the least pokemon altering way, so fewest changes possible.

It's hard to pinpoint what is exactly broken with Conk, like Rache said. But if I had to choose one solution it would be to ban Guts on Conk. Conk's identity will mostly be kept intact, it'll keep all its moves and stats. And Sheer Force works a lot like Guts (boosting attack power) so the mon will retain the same function in teams. I would assume all Conks ingame automatically revert to Sheer Force so people will not really lose much investment (maybe a Flame Orb). Some more points on why I think SF is not as bad as Guts for offense:

 

- part of the problem with Guts is that it lessens prediction burden (as long as there is no Ghost) because Facade hits insanely hard. Which makes things like offensive Gliscor, Toxiccroak, Starmie and even Tentacruel barely a check. 

 

- Without Guts there are more ways for offense to deal with Conk than damage alone. Burns can now actually affect it and it can no longer freely come in on Spore or Sleep Powder.

 

- The overall damage output of Conk is slightly nerfed without altering stats and moves, while also adding a cost to Mach Punch and Drain Punch. This change will make Conk less viable in every team, because things like RH Hippo now actually threaten it a lot.

 

Long term solutions:

- Addition of HA will make Guts fine again I think. Conk will naturally be used less with Amounguss and Slowbro making it to OU. That alone makes HO more viable again.

- Fairy typing (including the moves) would fix sooo many problems that this meta has, including this one (altho the game might not be ready for magic guard cosmic power Clefable lol). I'm pretty sure devs have no intention of adding Fairy type. But maybe if you guys annoy them enough we could see it happen, eh?

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2 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

It's hard to pinpoint what is exactly broken with Conk, like Rache said. But if I had to choose one solution it would be to ban Guts on Conk. Conk's identity will mostly be kept intact, it'll keep all its moves and stats. And Sheer Force works a lot like Guts (boosting attack power) so the mon will retain the same function in teams. I would assume all Conks ingame automatically revert to Sheer Force so people will not really lose much investment (maybe a Flame Orb). Some more points on why I think SF is not as bad as Guts for offense:

 

- part of the problem with Guts is that it lessens prediction burden (as long as there is no Ghost) because Facade hits insanely hard. Which makes things like offensive Gliscor, Toxiccroak, Starmie and even Tentacruel barely a check. 

 

- Without Guts there are more ways for offense to deal with Conk than damage alone. Burns can now actually affect it and it can no longer freely come in on Spore or Sleep Powder.

 

- The overall damage output of Conk is slightly nerfed without altering stats and moves, while also adding a cost to Mach Punch and Drain Punch. This change will make Conk less viable in every team, because things like RH Hippo now actually threaten it a lot.

 

Long term solutions:

- Addition of HA will make Guts fine again I think. Conk will naturally be used less with Amounguss and Slowbro making it to OU. That alone makes HO more viable again.

- Fairy typing (including the moves) would fix sooo many problems that this meta has, including this one (altho the game might not be ready for magic guard cosmic power Clefable lol). I'm pretty sure devs have no intention of adding Fairy type. But maybe if you guys annoy them enough we could see it happen, eh?

This is prolly the best approach. Banning Flame orb on it won't cut it in my opinion because Bulk Up Conk can be as much of a problem with Lefties but with Guts gone there is actually a proper counterplay to negate the pressure Conk brings to the table and that would be to burn it. Sheer Force Conk doesn't lack the damage to still be a threat in our current Meta and would still be able to pressure Hydreigon decently (even tho the Draco problems might still get out of hand then!).

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I think that conkeldurr is a necessary evil, the meta of PokeMMO is already fat, without conk we are fucked to kill wall since the other good fighters (infernape and lucario) are extremely weak defensively. We are already without garchomp imagine without conkeldurr, blissey will reign even more, it is possible that a blissey wins alone

6 walls is already a nightmare imagine without conk to break these ridiculous teams, Does the Tier Council only ban wallbreakers? Ban reuniclus also ban chansey ban everything

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Before starting with conkeldurr, talk about hydreigon, by banning garchomp hydreigon goes freer by removing the most used check it has, now assuming they ban conkel, a rk is removed that is also widely used, we would give hydreigon a goal served , conkel can be a problem, but I think hydreigon is now the biggest problem, I think they would be solved with things like HA or legendary (mew)

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I’d like to add that the potential nerfing of conk could hurt timbur in lc as well. Removing mach would be especially bad i hope this is taken into consideration before anything is done.

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On 10/17/2020 at 11:24 AM, Rache said:

I think my biggest question with Conkeldurr is "what exactly makes it overwheming"? Like with most discussions around complex bans (outright removals in our case), there are several ways to effectively nerf it, but it's difficult to determine which trait is the one that pushes it over the edge. Conkeldurr isn't a straightforward Pokemon, there are multiple things that make it as good as it is.

  • If you take away Mach Punch, it's more vulnerable to being outsped and hit hard by faster threats. Worth noting though, this option ruins existing Conks forever if it's re-added to its learnset later due to it being an egg move.
  • If you take away Drain Punch, it's no longer absurdly resilient. Damage on it becomes permanent without team support, making it much less capable of applying constant pressure, allowing it to beat fewer things 1v1, and making sacking something healthy to it less devastating.
  • If you take away Guts or Flame/Toxic Orb compatibility, is this actually enough to unbreak it? It weakens both of the above moves a bit if it's running Life Orb and makes Facade unviable, but the Pokemon itself still largely functions the same way.

We can take something away from it if it's determined to be broken, but which one (if any) is the right one and why? What makes it a better solution than the rest?

 

Note: This isn't a confirmation that something will be done to it.

what if it doesnt have guts? i think it will still good but it wont be that broken

Edited by Rynner

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On 10/18/2020 at 3:26 PM, Rynner said:

what if it doesnt have guts? i think it will still good but it wont be that broken

Yes,I also think that it's ability guts should be removed. After that it will be easier to kill.And also it will not be useless because of it's huge attack.

Edited by Abhuday

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I personally think that banning flame orb and toxic orb would be for the best. Guts is Conks defining trait and I think removing it would just hurt Conk and make it trash. 

 

Lets guts stay on and ban toxic orb and flame orb. Then you just have to be smart with predicts and switch in on a wisp or toxic. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, EricRasp said:

I personally think that banning flame orb and toxic orb would be for the best. Guts is Conks defining trait and I think removing it would just hurt Conk and make it trash. 

 

Lets guts stay on and ban toxic orb and flame orb. Then you just have to be smart with predicts and switch in on a wisp or toxic. 

 

 

Removing flame orb + conkeldurr and toxic orb + conkeldurr and removing ability guts does the same thing. They both stop conkeldurr from boosting it's attack from 211 to 316.5 . As you say guts is defining trait of conkeldurr so I also think that it will be good to ban flame orb and toxic orb for conkeldurr.

Edited by Abhuday

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1 minute ago, Abhuday said:

Removing flame orb + conkeldurr and toxic orb + conkeldurr and removing ability guts does the same thing.

I wouldn't say its the same since you can still be smart with your switches to try and get guts activated. This allows for more skill based play with conk which I think is a win in a competitive system like Pokemon. 

Just now, Quinn010 said:

ban the whole item flame orb ? cuz that sounds dumb

Ban it on conk I mean :P 

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42 minutes ago, pachima said:

It doesnt double attack lmao.

It boosts attack by half means from 211 to 316.5 .

Screenshot_20201019-190647.png

Edited by Abhuday

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