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Munya

September-Movement Discussion Thread

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48 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

tbh mienfoo got only high usage not even sky high win % i hope it stay in lc 

(i hate bronzor more ) 

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EDIT : is bronzor moved ? 

Bronzor as a pokemon is ok, it's more the berry juice recycle as I said 

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Regarding Roserade in NU and Bronzor or Mienfoo in LC, if you really feel strongly that these mons are problematic enough to deserve a ban, some explanation more detailed than "x is broken" would be helpful.

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bronzor and other recycle juice mons are easier to kill than mienfoo, that thing is absurdly resilient

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how likely is it to find myself in vermilion city with a summoned hydreigon if now i decide to spend my money to teach him draco meteor + pp max it?

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9 hours ago, gbwead said:

Regarding Roserade in NU and Bronzor or Mienfoo in LC, if you really feel strongly that these mons are problematic enough to deserve a ban, some explanation more detailed than "x is broken" would be helpful.

Where was the explanation for Garchomp? All I've seen from you every month since it was implemented is 'Ban Garchomp' and nothing else. 

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252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Conkeldurr: 349-412 (84.2 - 99.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Edited by Paulo300991

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19 minutes ago, hannahtaylor said:

Where was the explanation for Garchomp? All I've seen from you every month since it was implemented is 'Ban Garchomp' and nothing else. 

On 4/14/2020 at 10:40 PM, gbwead said:

Now, I want to talk about my favorite OU problem: Garchomp. This pokemon is a little bit like Hydreigon since it is also a fan favorite mon that few are willing to look at objectively. Imo, it fits offensive uber characteristics because unlike the threats I talked about previously (except Wobbuffet) there isn’t really any viable counter play to that pokemon. Garchomp is first of all fast; this means only 6 OU pokemon are faster: Dugtrio, Gengar, Starmie, Jolteon, Infernape and Mienshao. Garchomp is also extremely bulky with several resistances (namely rock) and only has 2 weaknesses: Ice x4 and Dragon x2. Garchomp also has a great offensive typing and stats which provides it an advantageous coverage backed up with power. In order to start what I hope could be a healthy discussion about Garchomp, I would like to reach some common ground. What I mean here is that I suspect Garchomp to fit offensive uber characteristics and therefore I will mainly focus on the Garchomp traits that reflect those characteristics. Don’t get me wrong, I know Garchomp can do more than just potentially wallbreak or sweep. I realise Garchomp can provide a lot of utility to a team by setting up rocks, by unexpectedly outspeeding threats with a Choice Scarf or taking some hits for the team with or without a Rocky Helmet. However, for the sake of focusing namely on what allows imo Garchomp to fit offensive uber characteristics, I will look mainly at one set, so keep in mind every counter play suggested against this set will not be risk free. The set I have in mind is this one:

 

Garchomp @ Yache Berry 

Ability: Sand Veil 

Level: 50 

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe 

Jolly Nature 

- Dragon Claw 

- Earthquake 

- Fire Fang 

- Swords Dance

 

With that set, Garchomp is outsped under normal conditions by only 6 OU mons and none of them have an OHKO against Garchomp even with a Choice Spec or a Choice Band. I think this is very important because the lock risk that comes with using these items is not properly rewarded here. Garchomp also has OHKO possibilities against most of them. Ofc, since chip dmg seems to be a big factor when it comes to Garchomp, we should talk about it right away.

 

Choice Band Dugtrio needs at least 40% prior chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 112-133 (60.8 - 72.2%)

Choice Specs Gengar needs at least 35.9% prior chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 118-140 (64.1 - 76%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 118-139 (64.1 - 75.5%)

 

Choice Specs Starmie needs at least 20.7% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 146-174 (79.3 - 94.5%)

Choice Specs Jolteon needs at least 42.4% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 106-126 (57.6 - 68.4%)

Infernape needs at least 25% chip dmg inflicted to Garchomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 138-163 (75 - 88.5%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 102-120 (55.4 - 65.2%)

Choice Band Mienshao needs at least 8.2% chip dmg inflicted to chomp in order to secure the KO.

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252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (91.8 - 108.1%)

With all that said, I want to insist on the fact that most of these mons are not super viable as locked mons. For instance, Gengar is a highly vulnerable to Pursuit trapping from Ttar and Scizor and locking itself on Shadow Ball or HP Ice comes at a huge cost on top of the lock risk already mentioned. I also want to point out that the chip dmg against chomp is not something small like switch on Stealth Rocks or Rapid Spin, we are talking about 40% chip sometimes.

 

Since I just displayed what kind of chip dmg is required to KO Garchomp by faster mons, I think it is only fair I do the same with Chomp against these faster mons.

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Dugtrio

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252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 147-174 (133.6 - 158.1%)

23.8% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Gengar

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252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 103-123 (76.2 - 91.1%)

26.7% chip dmg is required to secure the KO on Starmie.

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252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 99-117 (73.3 - 86.6%)

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Jolteon

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252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 258-306 (184.2 - 218.5%)

0% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Infernape

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252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 224-266 (148.3 - 176.1%)

7.9% chip dmg required to secure the KO on Mienshao

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252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%)

As you can see, the chip dmg required by Garchomp to KO the faster threats is quite neglieable compared to the amount of chip dmg required by them to KO Garchomp. This is even more troubling when taking into account the fact that unlike them Garchomp doesn’t have to be locked to threathen them and that most of them are often played with Life Orb which will result in chipping themselves the little dmg required for Garchomp to KO them.

 

Priority moves can also be used in order to outspeed Garchomp. Here are some noteworthy ones and the chip dmg required to secure the KO on Garchomp:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 88-105 (47.8 - 57%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 63-75 (34.2 - 40.7%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 80-95 (43.4 - 51.6%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 61-73 (33.1 - 39.6%)

252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 66-78 (35.8 - 42.3%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 116-140 (63 - 76%)

 

Sadly, none of those have OHKO possibilities and aside from Mamoswine that isn’t even OU by usage, all of them deal less than 50% dmg with their priority move. Thankfully, Conkeldurr, Cloyster and Mamoswine are not at risk of getting OHKO by Garchomp and can threathen Garchomp with better moves than their priority move. However, none of them have a resistance against one of Garchomp’s two stab, Dragon Claw or Eq and both Conkeldurr/Mamoswine are at risk depending on their ev spread of being OHKO after a SD from Garchomp or getting 2HKO by 2 stab moves. This means that as answers to Garchomp, if they are not used as healthy revenge killers, they will realistically be forced to use their priority move unsuccessfully against Garchomp.

 

We can also look at Choice Scarf Pokemon in the tier against Garchomp:

 

Cloyster:

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252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 190-240 (103.2 - 130.4%)

Salamence:

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252+ SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-294 (134.7 - 159.7%)

252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88 - 104.3%)

Dragonite:

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252+ SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (127.1 - 150%)

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88 - 104.3%)

Hydreigon:

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252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 180-212 (97.8 - 115.2%)

Out of those 4 scarf mons, Salamence and Dragonite are imo incredibly unviable as Choice Scarf users, especially Dragonite. And aside from Cloyster, all of them take a huge risk when switching into Garchomp. Other scarfers may be capable to dealing good damage to Garchomp, but nothing noteworthy imo or better than what Dugtrio/Gengar/Starmie/Jolteon/Infernape/Mienshao can do.

 

Kingdra can also threathen Garchomp under rain, but once again it requires support for this to be achieved. I also personally believe rain teams are highly unviable without trapping support and since Wobbuffet shouldn’t even be allowed in OU as far as I am concerned, I think it is appaling to incentize the usage of one Uber mon to stop another. I realise my opinion about rain team might not be shared by many, so if you don’t agree, that’s completely fine and take what I just said with a grain of salt.

 

With all that being said, I believe offensive checks to Garchomp are very limited, risky for some and and often require prior chip dmg support to work. Garchomp is a huge threat for offense as a playstyle, but since Garchomp fits also imo offensive uber characterisitics, it’s also a huge asset for offensive teams. I think some people might get confused because of that. Offense is more viable than before and I think many would agree. However, if you play Offense without Garchomp, offense as a playstyle is not really more viable than before and I would argue that offense players are somewhat forced to run Garchomp because the ressources to deal with it offensively are subpar at best.

 

For this reason, offensive teams often need to slow down and incorporate mons they would normally avoid or rarely consider since it makes them lose momentum and momentum is the most important gameplay aspect of any offensive team. Bulky Rotom Wil-O-Wisp can be considered for instance. However, if Garchomp stays against Rotom, Rotom will take a lot of dmg and depending on the ev spread, Rotom may still be in KO range after Garchomp gets burned. Garchomp is also free to switch out after getting burned and through Heal Bell or Healing Wish support can get rid of the burn status. There is also an important miss factor to take into consideration when relying on Wil-O-Wisp to deal with Garchomp and that’s not ideal at all. Don’t get me wrong Bulky Rotom is still a great answer to the Garchomp set I want to focus on, but if it’s another Garchomp set involving Substitute or Lum Berry, Rotom is screwed.

 

Since I already discussed some of the biggest threats in our metagame, I will compare some of them to Garchomp. Conkeldurr is extremely difficult to counter, but fortunately suffers from 4mss, gets chipped much more easily than Garchomp and can be offensively checked. When mons like Gengar, Chandelure or Starmie get switched into Conkeldurr on the right predicted move, they have the ability to then pose a great threat to Conkeldurr. Is there anything that can really switch in free on a predicted Dragon Claw against Garchomp? Not much and that is a problem. There is a risk free aspect to chomp as an offensive threat and that isn’t the case for Conkeldurr. Togekiss also has some offensive checks, mostly Rotom, Dnite and Jolteon. You are not forced to run Ttar scarf or Magnezone scarf to offensively check Togekiss, there are other options too. Garchomp got none of those options, no free offensive check on Dragon Claw unlike the several offensive checks to Air Slash Togekiss.

 

As for defensive playstyle against the Garchomp set I want to focus on, there are fewer options. Thanks to Yache Berry, Milotic or Porygon2 can’t OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam, but they get 2HKO after a SD. These are therefore not good against this Garchomp set.

 

Umbeon and Mandibuzz are now being played more and more in OU to stop Garchomp with stab Foul Play. Unfortunetly, Foul Play is not a guaranteed KO against +2 Garchomp:

Since chip dmg is realistically much more difficult to inflict when playing a stall team, a 56.3% chance to OHKO is much more problematic considering Garchomp can 2HKO these mons after a SD. Rocky Helmet Mandibuzz can help out in that matter tho. It’s also important to realise that both Umbreon and Mandibuzz are not even OU by usage and their viability is very questionable, almost to the same extent as using Hitmontop to stop Tyranitar in Gen 3 OU.

 

We can also look at Skarmory since it resists to both Dragon Claw and Earthquake from Garchomp. However, Skarmory can’t do much against Garchomp beside Counter or Whirlwind which only leads to 50/50 plays. And this is a huge problem. For instance, if Garchomp does SD on a Skarmory that switches in and then if Skarmory fails the 50/50, it is as good as dead. If Skarmory does Whirlwind and Garchomp does Fire Fang, this is what happens:

If Garchomp does another SD and Skarmory does Counter, the next two turns will be the end of Skarmory:

This represents 69 HP maximum dealt to Skarmory so it will do twice to Garchomp through Counter, so 138 HP max dmg. Since Garchomp has a total of 184 HP, this isn’t close to handling Garchomp.

Skarmory is afterwards in KO range:

As you can see Garchomp is not countered by Skarmory at all here and the worse part is that if this was a mixed Garchomp with Fire Blast, the situation would be even more difficult for Skarmory.

 

Then we have Cofagrigus. It’s significantly more bulky than a Bulky Rotom, but the same it still lacks the necessary recovery to deal with Garchomp long term and takes an enormous risk when attempting to do wow since it could miss or Garchomp could have another set. Anyhow, Cofagrigus can on paper stop this specific Garchomp set, but imo that is an underwhelwing answer because it resists neither of Garchomp’s stabs.

 

Overall, I believe Wobbuffet fits Supportive Uber Characteristics and Garchomp fits Offensive Uber Characteristics. Both should be banned.

I'm not going to get involved about whether or not Chomp was banworthy, but its not exactly fair to say GB hasn't given any explanations for his stance. This is just ONE of his many arguements, and Im pretty sure its longer than my dissertation

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55 minutes ago, Paulo300991 said:

What the community/tc think about Drizzle + Swift Swin Kingdra?

It's better against Hyper Offense than it is against balance or stall, but other than that I don't think it's much of an issue. We have Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn,  Milotic, Gastrodon and other walls that can switch into Kingdra relatively safely. We also have very viable Sand Stream mons like Hippo and Ttar that are also a huge pain for rain teams. Overall, I don't believe Rain teams are that impressive anymore because Wobbuffet is no longer there to take out the big walls I mentioned and without Garchomp in OU, you no longer need a rain Kingdra to revenge kill it.

 

2 hours ago, hannahtaylor said:

Where was the explanation for Garchomp? All I've seen from you every month since it was implemented is 'Ban Garchomp' and nothing else. 

You probably missed a lot of my Garchomp posts. You can find several of those in the July discussion thread, in the OU support request thread and in that ridiculous "time to balance Garchomp" thread.

 

Edited by gbwead

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

You probably missed a lot of my Garchomp posts. You can find several of those in the July discussion thread, in the OU support request thread and in that ridiculous "time to balance Garchomp" thread.

why is NU the way it is today? several very strong pokemons descended into the tier, generating an imbalance, where the pokemons that were used in NU before lost space in the middle there are so many strong pokemons.

do you know if they will ban the rhyperior? it's enough for me to have to readjust the team, then I make the pokemon and ban it
I made 2x garchomps 1 5x31 and another 6x31e banned

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7 minutes ago, mateusvictor said:

why is NU the way it is today? several very strong pokemons descended into the tier, generating an imbalance, where the pokemons that were used in NU before lost space in the middle there are so many strong pokemons.

do you know if they will ban the rhyperior? it's enough for me to have to readjust the team, then I make the pokemon and ban it
I made 2x garchomps 1 5x31 and another 6x31e banned

I think you are missing the point. No one can tell exactly whether a mon will or not be banned. A small group of "players" are needed to discuss and only after that happens we can know what will happen to whatever pokemon they discussed. 

For Garchomp, it has been discussed since April, and therefore whoever decided to invest money into making one is/or should be aware of the risk. 

Also, you probably didnt waste the money because Garchomp will come back as a nerfed version of itself sometime soon tm.

 

Edited by pachima

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12 minutes ago, mateusvictor said:

why is NU the way it is today? several very strong pokemons descended into the tier, generating an imbalance, where the pokemons that were used in NU before lost space in the middle there are so many strong pokemons.

Unlike OU, NU is subjected to usage movements every months, so there will always be huge threats moving up and down. This will indeed generate imbalances and there isn't much that can be done to prevent this aside from perhaps reworking the way pokemon are moved up and down.

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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Unlike OU, NU is subjected to usage movements every months, so there will always be huge threats moving up and down. This will indeed generate imbalances and there isn't much that can be done to prevent this aside from perhaps reworking the way pokemon are moved up and down.

got it, this is sad

a question, if creating a new RU tier and playing these very strong pokemons there would solve?

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Just now, mateusvictor said:

got it, this is sad

a question, if creating a new RU tier and playing these very strong pokemons there would solve?

You'd be simply shifting the issue towards a new tier. New NU would be "fixed", but the new RU would be literally our current NU with the same issues it possesses.

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Glad/sad Chomp is gone, but thank the lord we aren't doing that bullshit complex ban nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, mateusvictor said:

got it, this is sad

a question, if creating a new RU tier and playing these very strong pokemons there would solve?

There is somewhat of a butterfly effect that you can expect with usage movements. OU will always be more stable, but a very tiny metagame change in OU will lead to several usage movements in UU and these will create significant metagame changes there which will lead to even more usage movements in NU. If you add RU to this chain, you can expect complete chaos at the bottom of the chain. Furthermore, adding a new tier would also mean dividing our competitive scene in 6 groups instead of 5 groups. It's important to consolidate our current structure beforing thinking of expanding because otherwise the first things that will collapse is the most fragile tiers like NU.

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23 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Glad/sad Chomp is gone, but thank the lord we aren't doing that bullshit complex ban nonsense.

If you are talking about a actual complex ban i don't think we've ever done one?

If you are talking about nerfing an aspect of garchomp, hate to break it to you but it'll probably happen

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong since I literally started PVPing since the update, but for the case of Garchomp in OU, it seemed like he had incredibly niche and limited checks and counters to do well against him. Umbreon/Mandibuzz seemed to do okay at best against him as a whole, but it seems that a lot of the metagame has outright problems with killing him. People have mentioned scarfed dragons, but this forgets the fact that they cannot make a switch in versus Garchomp as well, and someone confidently sending out their dragon to fight Garchomp is just a sign that they're scarfed (and that point completely forgets the fact that if scarfed dragons were common enough to start countering Chomp, Garchomp would just start running scarf himself).

I introduced him to my team halfway through last month and I was just surprised at how much stuff I was getting away with even in a Jolly Life Orb/Swords dance set.

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26 minutes ago, Raichuforyou said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong since I literally started PVPing since the update, but for the case of Garchomp in OU, it seemed like he had incredibly niche and limited checks and counters to do well against him. Umbreon/Mandibuzz seemed to do okay at best against him as a whole, but it seems that a lot of the metagame has outright problems with killing him. People have mentioned scarfed dragons, but this forgets the fact that they cannot make a switch in versus Garchomp as well, and someone confidently sending out their dragon to fight Garchomp is just a sign that they're scarfed (and that point completely forgets the fact that if scarfed dragons were common enough to start countering Chomp, Garchomp would just start running scarf himself).

I introduced him to my team halfway through last month and I was just surprised at how much stuff I was getting away with even in a Jolly Life Orb/Swords dance set.

garchomp deserved the ban fk that poke

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1 hour ago, Munya said:

If you are talking about a actual complex ban i don't think we've ever done one?

If you are talking about nerfing an aspect of garchomp, hate to break it to you but it'll probably happen

Uh, there've absolutely been complex bans. The draco ban on hydreigon was a complex ban, for example. Going way back in time, we once complex banned curselax, too (though that one was arguably warranted, since a lot of people made solid arguments that an OU metagame without snorlax would devolve into absolute chaos)

 

And, ps, nerfing an aspect of garchomp will also be a complex ban - except arguably more confusing for new players

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

there isn't much that can be done

Lol have you ever heard about Quickban ? You know when something too strong is supposed to go down, as a Tier Council your job is to make the relevant calcs and decide on whether it seems all right or not to let it go down by usage. Saying "Nothing can be done" is really a shame because the only truth is "We don't want to do anything"

Revoke TC, hire active players, make useful decisions, that's what can be done 

 

Edit : Forgot to mention I'm fully satisfied with your work as TC gb and I know we can't expect so much from you, that's also why I want new (active) TC members

Edited by TohnR

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I would like to take a moment to appreciate and thank GB as he is pretty much the only TC member who actively discusses with us, even though I do not always agree with him.

 

also I pretty much don't play anymore so I'd make a perfect TC candidate, pm me guys I'm up

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