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September-Movement Discussion Thread


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23 minutes ago, Paulo300991 said:

Like Z crystals and Mega Stones?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but mega stone came one gen later after the knock off new BP. Also, that inst so important. Knock Off act more like a support atk for offensive teams and the mmo have tools to cheese against it since steel types still resist it and Ferrothorn can also rocky helmet and barbs the user. Also, bulky garchomp with rough skin too.

Ferrothorn will deffinitely enjoy switching on all those fighting mons that can knock off. 

Also, ever wondered why they made those items deny knock off?

 

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41 minutes ago, Paulo300991 said:

Like Z crystals and Mega Stones?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but mega stone came one gen later after the knock off new BP. Also, that inst so important. Knock Off act more like a support atk for offensive teams and the mmo have tools to cheese against it since steel types still resist it and Ferrothorn can also rocky helmet and barbs the user. Also, bulky garchomp with rough skin too.

Z-Crystals came out one gen after the Knock Off buff, but mega stones existed in the same gen that the knock off buff was introduced.  

Edited by NikhilR
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5 minutes ago, pachima said:

Ferrothorn will deffinitely enjoy switching on all those fighting mons that can knock off. 

Also, ever wondered why they made those items deny knock off?

 

>Ferrothorn will deffinitely enjoy switching on all those fighting mons that can knock off. 

Im some cases, yes. In general, no. So what? We should not implement the Knock off new BP because we need to preserve Ferrothorn against conks that will eventually run Knock off? lol

>Also, ever wondered why they made those items deny knock off?

Those items deny knock off because they bring a new centralized way to play the game. it means that you pokemon with Z Crystal/mega stone has been built around that. The possibility of denying a mega transformation/z move would bring several balance complications to the meta game since some Pokemon would be more susceptible to receive a Knock off/Thief. Also, the person who has denied to mega transform and use Z move would be in a huge disadvantage just because ONE move that the opponent has used.

So, no. Those itens are not knock off denying because we needed itens to "counter" knock off". But it can be used in that way.

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9 minutes ago, Paulo300991 said:

>Ferrothorn will deffinitely enjoy switching on all those fighting mons that can knock off. 

Im some cases, yes. In general, no. So what? We should not implement the Knock off new BP because we need to preserve Ferrothorn against conks that will eventually run Knock off? lol

>Also, ever wondered why they made those items deny knock off?

Those items deny knock off because they bring a new centralized way to play the game. it means that you pokemon with Z Crystal/mega stone has been built around that. The possibility of denying a mega transformation/z move would bring several balance complications to the meta game since some Pokemon would be more susceptible to receive a Knock off/Thief. Also, the person who has denied to mega transform and use Z move would be in a huge disadvantage just because ONE move that the opponent has used.

So, no. Those itens are not knock off denying because we needed itens to "counter" knock off". But it can be used in that way.

Why should knock off be buffed? You're the one seeking to change the status quo, you need to provide better reasoning other than "actualize knock off BP please"

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28 minutes ago, pachima said:

Also, ever wondered why they made those items deny knock off?

 

This might have a chance of being valid if it weren't for the fact we've had gen 8 for a good while now, it doesn't have megas or z-crystals, and you know what? knock off isn't broken there, good? Sure, no where near ban worthy. The only argument ive heard so far that seems "valid" for keeping a nerfed knock off is that Conk becomes a monster with it, but since we're going down a path of complex bans/modification to pokemon that should not be an issue.
Since its another argument I hear often "We dont have fairies" I will say that we probably dont even need fairies in mmo to balance knock off, seeing as steal resist dark here. But even if it didn't Im not convinced that fairies are the things that keep knock off balanced, and not the fact that knock off just isnt a broken move

3 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Why should knock off be buffed? You're the one seeking to change the status quo, you need to provide better reasoning other than "actualize knock off BP please"

To more closely align MMO mechanics to pokemon mechanics, thus allowing newer players to learn and develop in this community better

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26 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

 

To more closely align MMO mechanics to pokemon mechanics, thus allowing newer players to learn and develop in this community better

How do we know that newer mmo players are more acclimated with new generation mechanics than old generation mechanics? Perhaps more players who start playing MMO either aren't familiar with new gen knock off, or not familiar with any existing mechanics.

 

Also to address what you said to pachi, there's a big difference between fairies and steels when it comes to handling knock off. Most steels are susceptible to fighting which is a very common type that abuses knock off, whereas fairies don't have the same exposure.

Edited by Gunthug
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1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

How do we know that newer mmo players are more acclimated with new generation mechanics than old generation mechanics? Perhaps more players who start playing MMO either aren't familiar with new gen knock off, or not familiar with any existing mechanics.

Thats fair, that being said the current competitive scenes that are most active(I understand people do play older gens still, just less active) is one of the generations in which knock off is buffed. Not just on showdown, but wifi battles. Meaning there are more resources that are readily available for players to learn it. Also seeing as we have updated movepools to gen 8 movepools, it would make sense that we continue to update our mechanics to match it, which is something we've already begun to do with weather, speed boost taking place immediately, etc. I understand MMO will always have a unique metagame with unique mechanics, but we can still attempt to lessen the divide by updating these old mechanics too

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45 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Why should knock off be buffed? You're the one seeking to change the status quo, you need to provide better reasoning other than "actualize knock off BP please"

I really doesnt understand why we have gen 8 learn sets and actualization in the game but not Knock off actualization. I'm sure that this discussion has been done in the past and i would be glad if someone can explain to me why it doesn't have been added yet.

Why i think that knock off should be in the game: Knock off help to balance some aspects of the game.

First off, stall teams doesn't have only acess to eviolite, but it have access to teleport -6 too. So, the stall teams gained a new tool and the offensive/stallbreak teams lack of one tool from a older generation. I dont think that its fair.

 

Without Lum Berry:
 

0 Atk Life Orb Hasty Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 159-187 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0+ Atk Life Orb Lonely Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 174-205 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Naive Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 148-177 (41.4 - 49.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lonely  Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 161-192 (45 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



I doesnt think that Chansey with eviolite is broken or etc... I just wonder why not implement knock off? I was never was broken in the game and i dont think that would be here.
 

Also, i have seen in this topic that some arguments to ban Garchomp are around its unpredictable item. Yache Berry, Focus scarf and etc... Knock off brings a way to play that you can punish your opponent even if he brings a counter in front of your Pokemon (independent of the garchomp topic). Also, you can be punished too just after that. So i don't know why knock off was not implement yet.

Edited by Paulo300991
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40 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

This might have a chance of being valid if it weren't for the fact we've had gen 8 for a good while now, it doesn't have megas or z-crystals, and you know what? knock off isn't broken there, good? Sure, no where near ban worthy. 

Correct me if I am wrong, cuz Im now venturing through stuff Im not sure about. I played gen8 for a while, but not much. 

Is it fair to compare gen8 knock off with gen5 knock off?  If I'm not mistaken, in gen8 (or maybe earlier), there is a massive powerspike compared to gen5 or below. And since knock off wasn't updated to accompany the evolution, the fact it was not changed means it's actually weaker in relation to gen8 meta, when compared to gen5 meta. 

TLDR; Knock off might not be broken in gen8, but the meta is super difference there, and that may have influence on knock off actual viability. And again, sorry if I'm wrong.

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2 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

They would likely remove knock off from Conk (at least in competitive) like they did with draco on hydreigon

while at that remove it from everyone then buff :^)

Personal opinion, but no, we already have enough to deal with rn, knock off would become a really strong move, which honestly is already viable on some teams even with near negative bp.

And also pls don't compare gen8 to ours, as someone who plays it, just don't, the powercreep between both is insane, fairy existing too.

Edited by razimove
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3 minutes ago, pachima said:

Correct me if I am wrong, cuz Im now venturing through stuff Im not sure about. I played gen8 for a while, but not much. 

Is it fair to compare gen8 knock off with gen5 knock off?  If I'm not mistaken, in gen8 (or maybe earlier), there is a massive powerspike compared to gen5 or below. And since knock off wasn't updated to accompany the evolution, the fact it was not changed means it's actually weaker in relation to gen8 meta, when compared to gen5 meta. 

TLDR; Knock off might not be broken in gen8, but the meta is super difference there, and that may have influence on knock off actual viability. And again, sorry if I'm wrong.

I may be wrong/bias here, but as far as Im aware a lot of the powercreep thats happened over the last few gens was largely reverted to a large extent through the infamous dexxit, with monsters, before the last dlc, people were running spdef clefables, meaning the main knock off resist didnt even have to run max def (but yeah clef does at least resist it even as a fairy,  so I understand its not the best example) Im not a gen 8 expert, but besides clef the only real mechanic pokemon thats been added from gen 5 to gen 8 that as prominent in the gen 8 ou meta game that helps with knock off is regen toxapex, which is just a whole different bag of worms, but sure maybe thats enough defensive boost to make your point?  But even then the power creep would work both offensively and defensively, with thinks like adapt crawdaunt, or urshifu. Even with powerhouses like those hanging around I have yet to see a single person complain knock off is broken. Again, Im not saying knock off wont be good, it will be, but I dont think it will be broken, and tbh I kinda think its a good think to have, it can certainly disrupt some of the concerns people are having with screen teams and stuff. (not saying its a screen counter, just that removing light clay helps a lot). All im saying is I feel like a lot of people are panicking over knock off being some insane powerful breaking move, when I really dont think that will be the case, I'll see if I can run a through calcs so I can see if this panic is justified, or if im just naive

 

6 minutes ago, razimove said:

while at that remove it from everyone then buff :^)

Personal opinion, but no, we already have enough to deal with rn, knock off would become a really strong move, which honestly is already viable on some teams even with near negative bp.

To be honest, the only pokemon that can get away with running knock off right now are support mons, to give up a slot on your offensive mons to run a base 20 move is a joke, especially seeing as one of the major drawbacks of offensive mons can be their 4 moveslot syndrome. I can see why knock off conk is scary, but I dont see mienshao suddenly getting access to knock off as being super powerful and something to fear.

 

Oh and one final remark on the lack of z-crystals and megas, if you really think that theyre the only reason knock off didnt break the game, just run a mon with an item, and use it as your designated knock off target, not saying its the best a good strat, but there are ways to mitigate that knock off dmg increase without z-crystals and megas

 

 

 

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So there would be a lot of calcs to do if you wanted a full understanding of the impact, but I ran a few (at level 100 because im a dummy, and for steels I just replaced steel typing with fairy to simulate the resistances) I do also know that there are plenty of thinks im not accounting for, Im mostly just sharing this for the sake of continuing the discussion

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 148-177 (46.2 - 55.3%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 101-120 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 81.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Cofagrigus: 74-88 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 70.2% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 156-185 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 38-45 (11.3 - 13.4%) -- possible 8HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Reuniclus: 117-138 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 49-58 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 258-304 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 146-172 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 146-172 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
excluding Conk, scizor and mien would be the main abusers I can see in OU (offensively speaking), and it will apply more pressure on reuni and cofag (obviously) but they will still struggle with other mons, if either are already in when you go for knock off, you risk burn (vs cofa) psychic from reuni, or even just a safe recover from reuni, in which case it wont be dying to you. Sets can also evolve to run colbur berry so that knock off really is doing 0, and after the berry is used, you still get the benefit of weak knock offs. I do think it may cause a stir up in lower tiers potentially, mainly with mons like bisharp and azu, but thats not a bad thing necessarily, I dont see either being broken in OU

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 81-96 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 36-43 (10.7 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 38-45 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 121-143 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 115-136 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 213-251 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

tl'dr: Knock off buff doesnt seem to be broken for anyone else besides conk, meta can evolve to even further reduce the threat with the inclusion of colbur berries etc. Im also bad at calcs

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Considering the chaos that is NU right now, I think it's fair to say that stability is quite important if we seek to build a balanced metagame that will be able to naturally evolve. There is a lot of mechanics that have not been updated simply because they are worth testing. Updating the Knock Off mechanic comes at a huge stability cost in the event this mechanic needs to be reverted back to what it used to be. It's ideal to test and then talk, but it's utopic to think everything should be tested out. I personally do not feel confident at all about the newer gen Knock Off in PokeMMO, so I would not advise staff/devs to test it out. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 12:44 PM, DarylDixon said:

Regardering roserade, id kinda need 2 many calcs to demostrate hows hella strong it is that thing, and  that kinda of poke is smashing the entire tier, id wouldnt even watch the combo with rhyperor, people in ranked can't be forced to play all the times stuff like bronzor and clefable to walls it.

Choice specs vs Clefable:

  Reveal hidden contents

252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 126-148 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 63-75 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

(it can even get a chance to kill it with -2)

  Reveal hidden contents

252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 136-162 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

  Reveal hidden contents

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Ok, sludge bomb it's a 3hko, gigadrain 4, but you should consider there are some specsed  , i know it's 3%, but id kinda consider that.

Drapion: (id would consider there are around that combo roserade + rhyperior which is being really strong, and drapion kinda can't do nothing vs it, 

  Reveal hidden contents

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 61-73 (42 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 102-120 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 71-84 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

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252 Atk Drapion Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sniper Drapion Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior on a critical hit: 171-202 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sniper Drapion Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior on a critical hit: 171-202 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 146-174 (100.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (in the back rhyperior can 1hko it even as wall with some atk invest)

 

@gbwead im just giving you my opinion, id can be wrong or whatever u want but id still rater roserade should need a test, and id would consider the combo with rhyperior. my bad for my english

Sorry for not answering you sooner. Looking at the calcs you linked, I assume your point is that Roserade can wallbreak extremely well when holding a spec and I think that's accurate. However, I feel that is the case for all Choice Spec or Choice Band users. The purpose of Choice Spec and Choice Band is wallbreaking afterall. For instance, I would argue that the choice locked wall breaking prowess of Roserade is somewhat similar to the wall breaking capabilities of Alakazam Spec in UU or Darmanitan Choice Band in OU. When you predict correctly you are highly rewarded and if you mispredict, you get heavily punished. Choice Specs is a double edge sword item, making it possibly very good or very bad.

 

Roserade got really good coverage, but it's important to note that its main 2 stabs can be resisted very well. Unlike Choice Spec Draco Meteor Hydreigon that will deal a minimum of 40% dmg to w.e it encounters, Choice Spec Roserade can get in pretty iffy situations when locked on Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb, since some mons can resist these moves very well (x1/4 or x0). 

 

Don't take me wrong though. I'm not saying Roserade is completely fine and should under no circumstance be banned. I just mean that your Choice Spec calcs are not enough for me to warrant a ban. I realise though that the Choice Spec set is part of Roserade overall versatility and if people add to what you are saying, we would be able to have a more complete picture of Roserade as a threat.

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13 hours ago, gbwead said:

Sorry for not answering you sooner. Looking at the calcs you linked, I assume your point is that Roserade can wallbreak extremely well when holding a spec and I think that's accurate. However, I feel that is the case for all Choice Spec or Choice Band users. The purpose of Choice Spec and Choice Band is wallbreaking afterall. For instance, I would argue that the choice locked wall breaking prowess of Roserade is somewhat similar to the wall breaking capabilities of Alakazam Spec in UU or Darmanitan Choice Band in OU. When you predict correctly you are highly rewarded and if you mispredict, you get heavily punished. Choice Specs is a double edge sword item, making it possibly very good or very bad.

 

Roserade got really good coverage, but it's important to note that its main 2 stabs can be resisted very well. Unlike Choice Spec Draco Meteor Hydreigon that will deal a minimum of 40% dmg to w.e it encounters, Choice Spec Roserade can get in pretty iffy situations when locked on Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb, since some mons can resist these moves very well (x1/4 or x0). 

 

Don't take me wrong though. I'm not saying Roserade is completely fine and should under no circumstance be banned. I just mean that your Choice Spec calcs are not enough for me to warrant a ban. I realise though that the Choice Spec set is part of Roserade overall versatility and if people add to what you are saying, we would be able to have a more complete picture of Roserade as a threat.

Id feel roserade more as a strategist poke, and you cant even know what kinda of type it is, many are offensive with spikes or sleep, or full attacking moves which it can get even to destroys  poison types like nidoqueen and golbat with extrasensory,and with a good strategy rose can hurt enough, we are just forced to play stuff like mantine to walls it in general...  i will never get why we can't get a test on it, and also if we have  to call stuff like drapion and skuntank, don't think people will spam it since there are afraid of rhyperior which it does a great core with roserade, as doing some calcs even as wall it does alot of damage at certain pokes excluding the spdef wall mons..

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2 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

Roserade might be comparable in power to Alakazam in UU and Darmanitan in OU, but I don't think they are comparable to NU Roserade. Roserade will have a much easier time switching in on things. While Darmanitan and Alakazam don't even want to take a hit from a wall. 

Ya, I just meant that in terms of raw power shown by some calcs, Roserade isn't anything crazy. There is more to the story than just the calcs. Roserade switch in capacity is a very good point.

 

19 minutes ago, DarylDixon said:

Id feel roserade more as a strategist poke, and you cant even know what kinda of type it is, many are offensive with spikes or sleep, or full attacking moves which it can get even to destroys  poison types like nidoqueen and golbat with extrasensory,and with a good strategy rose can hurt enough, we are just forced to play stuff like mantine to walls it in general...  i will never get why we can't get a test on it, and also if we have  to call stuff like drapion and skuntank, don't think people will spam it since there are afraid of rhyperior which it does a great core with roserade, as doing some calcs even as wall it does alot of damage at certain pokes excluding the spdef wall mons..

I agree that sending something like Golbat against Roserade gives usually Rhyperior a free switch in. However, that kind of argument is used if you want to make a case for Roserade being unhealthy and sadly it's not really possible to determine that as long as the meta is unstable.  

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6 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

Roserade podría ser comparable en poder a Alakazam en UU y Darmanitan en OU, pero no creo que sean comparables a NU Roserade. A Roserade le resultará mucho más fácil cambiar las cosas. Mientras que Darmanitan y Alakazam ni siquiera quieren recibir un golpe de una pared. 

 

Roserade has a mediocre physical defense, on the other hand there is a difference between kazam and roserade, the speed

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