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2 minutes ago, Paul said:

Maybe this is harsh, and not a direct attack at you, but you should not have a 157/155 win/loss record and expect to get the same reward as the #1 OU player.

 

Sure, you have to grind more or improve at PvP, but you still have the ability to earn the same rewards, just at a slower pace.

The only way a top player can get more than 1-2 points a game seems to be to stall games out. Because the elo to reward point scaling system wasn't in place when I climbed to the #1, all of the potential bonuses that I could've had are nonexistent. So as a player on the top half of a ladder, I'm not a fan of this either 

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9分钟前,Paul 说:

Maybe this is harsh, and not a direct attack at you, but you should not have a 157/155 win/loss record and expect to get the same reward as the #1 OU player.

 

Sure, you have to grind more or improve at PvP, but you still have the ability to earn the same rewards, just at a slower pace.

We are players,We are not champions.

If only the champion can get this.

So it is bound to be opposed by ordinary players.

Most of the players just want this dress instead of being the champion, don't they?

Although I didn't play very well, it doesn't mean that I can get this right away if I play well.

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1 minute ago, Hibikl said:

We are players,We are not champions.

If only the champion can get this.

So it is bound to be opposed by ordinary players.

Most of the players just want this dress instead of being the champion, don't they?

You don't have to be the best to earn the reward, you can still earn it, just not at the same pace as the #1 player. How is this not fair to you? You have 3 months per season to earn it, not sure why you're trying to do it in 4-5 days as you said earlier. 

 

5 minutes ago, calidubstep said:

The only way a top player can get more than 1-2 points a game seems to be to stall games out.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I see this as a big problem. I'm not on the leaderboard so I can't test it myself, but the purpose of this update would be meaningless if you are still only getting 2 points

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2分钟前,Paul 说:

You don't have to be the best to earn the reward, you can still earn it, just not at the same pace as the #1 player. How is this not fair to you? You have 3 months per season to earn it, not sure why you're trying to do it in 4-5 days as you said earlier. 

It's like you are shopping. You only need 10 dollars at first, but later he repents to ask you for 30 dollars. Can you accept this?

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I feel that the update itself wasn’t necessarily needed right this minute either, 

there’s no doubt the bug reports were impressively large though..
it’s gg to all of the top players, while a big rip to anyone grinding it out on the low ladder end for the rewards, is this a “early bird gets the worm” moment? 

there’s been so many of the more “casual” players really upset that they couldn’t get a Togekiss, or just about anything they were aiming for. Some might of been simply fulfilment on the end game to complete the rewards section. 
 

while on the topside, you can now earn double the rewards which is a bonus. 
but definitely pissed off a lot of players globally.

 


 

 

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As someone who is basically joining this system as of this new update, it is quite daunting...

 

I like to do quick maffs on these sort of things and this is what I'm coming up with...

 

(assuming you need a minimum 30 minute game to get the 10 points, which maybe is a bad assumption, idk)

30 minutes/match

10 pts/match

70% winrate (seems like a rough average for the top 100 leaderboard?)

4 minutes waiting for a match

1250 vanity required points

 

10 / (30+4) = .206 pts/minute = 12.35 pts/hour

 

1250 / 12.35 = 101.2 hours

 

So I have to dedicate 100 hours in a 3 month period to purely PvP in order to earn the vanity (again assuming a 70% winrate...). Or, essentially, over an hour per day.

Lower the winrate to 50% and you tack on an extra 40 hours needed.

 

If the intention was to make these vanities exclusive to the good PvP players, they should just be awarded based on leaderboard placements at the end of the season, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

My opinion is that this needs more fine tuning.

 

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24 minutes ago, Gilan said:

Or, essentially, over an hour per day.

There's no way I'm the only one who thinks this is reasonable though right? (Assuming your math is all accurate) 

 

PvE players are OK with spending 8 hours grinding gyms & farming berries, but when you ask them to PvP for an hour, now we're going too far? Going off of your math, a 50% winrate would still only be around an hour & a half per day, which in no way is unreasonable to ask of. 

 

A common argument used is that some people don't have the time to play for an hour every day, OK. 

I don't have the time to grind RS anymore, so should I just get all the skill capes because I... want them? What about WoW mounts people have grinded years for, should they hand them to me because I think they look cool but don't have time to grind bosses?

 

Personally I'm fine either way they go with this, but I'd just like to retain the rarity & value of these items, especially considering (imo) they don't look that great, so there's no point going for them otherwise.

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One thing that I noticed is that you will get more mmrwp points if your game goes over 10 minutes. So with games that I have won in 7-8 minutes I'll timer stall to hit 10 minutes for the extra point. This is unhealthy for both sides in my opinion and still hardly dents into the amount of points needed to complete this.

 

I'm not saying that this should be something that's completeable in 2 days, but most people no-lifing (like me) would've been projected to have it done in 10-15 days, which isn't bad at all as most people will soon (or already do) have other things in life to do. Also people playing high ladder for the past couple days have been getting less (2 points) than if you just played an off ladder random to a 10 minute game now (3 points), which feels kinda scammy (lf rescale of old points). 

 

 

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i always play 6-7 min matches so i can stop playing hyper offensive and start playing stall? or stop playing ladder bc this update is pure bs. 

and if i need 10min before a bonus you get shit qaulity matches where i tried to stall the timer. 

imagine i make pokemmo video's and i say now i stall the timer bc this is how the system works. you guys think people see this and think omg i like this game so much or i skip this game wtf is this for shit system. 

 

 

and for people that play balanced/stall, the old system wasnt bad. i played stall in 20min matches.

 

now this doesnt feel like pvp, more as a grind where i play 1 playstyle that i dont like 

 

edit : i think the old system is good and what about if you play 30min+ games reward you 4 points so stall players can also get the reward fast and you dont effect any players 

 

R.I.P. old reward system

Edited by Quinn010
fuck stall anyways
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For my last 6 wins i got 5 Points lol, games are either over in 5 turns or people loose 2 mons and let the timer run down. Should i stop playing critdra in dubs now if I want  to grind of lesser skilled ppl? Thats bullshit I should not get a penalty for playing a specific team.

 

 

Edit: 14 wins now and i got 26 Points, thats just dumb lol

Edited by CaptnBaklava
wrote 6 instead of 5 turns :D
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Just tested it out after continuously getting feedback on this joke of a update, 

this isn’t game breaking meta at all, this is forcing players both rookie & advanced level to play a different play style all together, either you need to stall out 40+ turns with the timer, or you need to purposely lose some matches that’s going to affect your W/L score in the long run just in order to get a match to get more points. 
 

forget HO, forget Gimmicks, forget strategy. Just straight up stall the turns/timer count per match or click spam opponents in the long run to lose. 
 

this is going to impact so many newer players getting into PvP as well, thinking their sets are good when it ain’t going to do shit outside of Matchmaking. 
 

also the usage for next month is going to be haywire & possibly inaccurate due to the constant change in sets.

 

on top of all that, with Team tournaments coming up that’s probably all the pvp players will look forward too, what’s next? Un-nerf garchomp/Baton pass/Dugtrio?
 

Go back a step Dev team, this is whacked.

Edited by Kupokun
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1 minute ago, v971385168 said:

我大部分比赛都是得的2分,只有几场是3分,4分根本没见过,感觉高分玩家也没有什么优势,现在改成1250实在太难了。有大佬帮忙翻译下吗?

QQ截图20200805205259.png

Translation from google.. “I scored 2 points in most of the games, only a few games were 3 points. I have never seen 4 points at all. I feel that high-scoring players have no advantage. It is too difficult to change to 1250. Can someone help me translate it?”

 

 

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8 hours ago, Paul said:

There's no way I'm the only one who thinks this is reasonable though right? (Assuming your math is all accurate) 

 

PvE players are OK with spending 8 hours grinding gyms & farming berries, but when you ask them to PvP for an hour, now we're going too far? Going off of your math, a 50% winrate would still only be around an hour & a half per day, which in no way is unreasonable to ask of. 

 

A common argument used is that some people don't have the time to play for an hour every day, OK. 

I don't have the time to grind RS anymore, so should I just get all the skill capes because I... want them? What about WoW mounts people have grinded years for, should they hand them to me because I think they look cool but don't have time to grind bosses?

 

Personally I'm fine either way they go with this, but I'd just like to retain the rarity & value of these items, especially considering (imo) they don't look that great, so there's no point going for them otherwise.

Difference between RS and WoW is that you don’t need to accomplish the feats within a 3 month time frame. Not an apples to apples comparison.

 

I agree that on the surface it might seem reasonable. But, I genuinely believe my assumptions are pretty lenient, as well as the fact that I was showing what it would take for obtaining one of the vanities. What if you also wanted the other tiers’ vanities? That’s just so daunting and pretty much impossible.

 

edit: also the comparison to pve players grinding, again is not limited to a 3 month time frame. Furthermore, that pve grinding results in a lot of $$$. Whereas the pvp grinding does not.

Edited by Gilan
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16 hours ago, Desu said:

You can already requeue and play more matches, while the person stuck in a longer game cannot. Effectively "time spent" is a larger factor in rewards now. We might not have the scaling perfect just yet, but we think its a step in the right direction.

I would very much like to hear your philosophy on why a decision was made to attempt to successfully incorporate time spent per match (in addition to wins / losses) when this was largely a non-contentious issue previously (when it wasn't being factored into rewards from matchmaking in any noticeable way).

In many games there are side effects of the faster gameplay styles (aggro) being more efficient for progressing through ladder systems compared to slower styles (control / stall), however artificially compensating the slower gameplay styles by trying to approximate their time invested for each win and give them rewards based on that (rather than their number of victories) feels like a pipe dream, and also has unintended side-effects for many matches in the future and I personally do not think this is a good idea to do.

If the system continues to try and adjust rewards based on time invested rather than number of wins you will consistently have the following cons:

  • Winning matches early on (which can happen for stall AND aggro (even though aggro generally gets it more often for obvious reasons)) is objectively less rewarding.
    • This for players feels very bad because early victories are rare and (generally) are the result of a good play by one of the players.
      • By devaluing the reward of ending games early in this style you will sometimes end up "punishing" players for being "too good".
         
  • The end results of a match are binary in that they are either a win or a loss. There are not multiple tiers of "victory", you do not get B Rank, A Rank, SSS Rank, etc.
    • This system is essentially turning the results of a match from a binary win / loss into different tiers of victory (short, medium, long match length).
      • This has been done in order to try an reimburse the time spent by stall players as they would be objectively less efficient at farming points (which is true).
        • However this has the unintended(?) side-effect of essentially establishing a minimum time investment requirement instead of a skill requirement.
          • This system essentially makes 9 turn wins into "B Rank" rewards, while 50 turn wins become "S Rank" rewards.
             
  • This system heavily encourages "playing with your food", if you are stomping then it is smart to delay your victory by as many turns as possible.
    • Turns are not indicative of time, if your opponent has say a slow 1 HP mon, you can switch out infinitely to inflate turn count (using sub 2 sec per turn)
      • You should do this if you want more points until you cannot do it any longer safely, after which you just knock out the mon and claim your win.
        • You spent a small amount of time to inflate your turn count which in turn inflated your rewards, going into a new match is a risk, this is guaranteed.
          • This is super duper scummy, but it is the smart (and objectively correct thing to do) if your goal is to get the pretty seasonal hats ASAP.
            • This can't even be fixed by swapping it to timer rather than turns spent, as you'd get timer stallers each turn instead.
               
  • In other games fast playstyles being efficient in grinding ELO / rewards is largely accepted. You see it in most other games, but people still play slower styles.
    • You can see this in Magic the Gathering where Mono Red is generally the go-to aggro quick games quick wins choice.
      • This applies to many other card games, such are hearthstone, etc. yet there is no artificial compensation for drawn out games in those.
    • In World of Warcraft (for Rated Arenas / Battlegrounds) the only factors for rewards are: "What is the disparity between team's ELO" and "Did you win".
      • In MOBAs (League of Legends, Dota 2, etc.) it also doesn't factor in time, You don't receive less ELO if the enemy team surrenders @ 20 in LoL.

The time investment being factored into rewards makes sense in the most cold logical sense devoid of human emotions, but this game (presumably) should be a form of entertainment first and a mathematical equation second, I genuinely believe that trying to factor in time investment into the rewards system errs too close on the mathematical equation side, and disregards a lot of the reason people are playing this game, for fun, you can try to rationalise why stall matches should get more points per win if they spent twice as long in their match, but it severely hampers the enjoyment gotten from winning the match for everyone else, because (again) it has turned it from a binary win / lose into different "tiers" of victory.

It may be worth scrapping the idea of time spent in matches being factored into rewards at all and reverting to only considering wins for these reasons, but then again this could be a tinfoil hat ploy to just artificially increase the amount of time people spend playing vidya game (even if they're having less fun).

Edited by Matoka
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13 hours ago, Hibikl said:

We are players,We are not champions.

If only the champion can get this.

So it is bound to be opposed by ordinary players.

Most of the players just want this dress instead of being the champion, don't they?

Although I didn't play very well, it doesn't mean that I can get this right away if I play well.

It's not, you're just making a pity party, it's meant for pvp players, not for casuals, therefor why it's a ranked reward and not a unranked reward.

I do think however that 1250 points might be a tiny bit overkill.

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