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PSL XIII - Community Input / Discussion

Showdown or not  

75 members have voted

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  1. 1. Showdown Tier (or not)?


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  • Poll closed on 07/19/20 at 10:59 PM

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5 hours ago, AndrewHavsha said:

No showdown won twice, pretty clear the majority of us want to at least try an event without catering to it. If the we shall be smited for forsaking the spl founders we can always offer the hosts to appease the showdown gods

I don't understand what kind of "data" you expect to gain from a season without showdown. It was 1 out of 10 tiers, this isn't a large or important change and there won't be any quantifiable difference as a result. All you and the pokemmo-purity weirdos accomplished is you've stripped away a small slice of the event that was easily accessible to spectators and players with lives outside of MMO. Congrats on the monumental victory

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50 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I don't understand what kind of "data" you expect to gain from a season without showdown. It was 1 out of 10 tiers, this isn't a large or important change and there won't be any quantifiable difference as a result. All you and the pokemmo-purity weirdos accomplished is you've stripped away a small slice of the event that was easily accessible to spectators and players with lives outside of MMO. Congrats on the monumental victory

I feel like I struck a nerve, that was never my intent, I just want a psl where we use all pokemmo tiers, because I believe that would look the most competitive overall. Would I be right about that? Meh juries out, but last wc really persuaded me against showdown tiers, I mean I hadnt touched SMOU for about a year and I went 4-1. Pretty much the major reason I voted for no pokemmo tiers, none of the arguments people posted in this thread in favour of showdown tiers persuaded me otherwise, but I'm open to continue listening. But if people are going to suggest we play vgc or some other showdown tier where the limited pool of players we have that play it are even further reduced, then it seems like the competitiveness of the tier is just gonna be trash, except for maybe one game where the two people who actually play the tier face off. Its not that im a mmo-purist, I just dont think we owe spl anything (as someone suggested earlier in this thread) nor do I think we benefit from showdown tiers(re:uncompetitive) But like I said, if you or anyone else who believe we should have showdown is able to convince me otherwise, then go for it.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

I feel like I struck a nerve, that was never my intent, I just want a psl where we use all pokemmo tiers, because I believe that would look the most competitive overall. Would I be right about that? Meh juries out, but last wc really persuaded me against showdown tiers, I mean I hadnt touched SMOU for about a year and I went 4-1. Pretty much the major reason I voted for no pokemmo tiers, none of the arguments people posted in this thread in favour of showdown tiers persuaded me otherwise, but I'm open to continue listening. But if people are going to suggest we play vgc or some other showdown tier where the limited pool of players we have that play it are even further reduced, then it seems like the competitiveness of the tier is just gonna be trash, except for maybe one game where the two people who actually play the tier face off. Its not that im a mmo-purist, I just dont think we owe spl anything (as someone suggested earlier in this thread) nor do I think we benefit from showdown tiers(re:uncompetitive) But like I said, if you or anyone else who believe we should have showdown is able to convince me otherwise, then go for it.

I probably shouldn't have singled you out in particular but you're just the last post I saw on the matter (though you've made several posts against showdown tiers with little substance, IMO). Any argument for no showdown involving WC is easily discarded by the simple fact that WC teams had no real choice over who was on their roster. 12 seasons of PSL play are a lot more compelling to me than that, and from my (admittedly biased) perspective a sprinkling of showdown has always been a nice change of pace and, like I said, an easily accessible avenue for spectators and players with less time to still be involved and have a seat in the stands. 

 

I was the one who mentioned SPL and my argument was not necessarily that we owe anything to SPL, as if BKC is going to show up and scold us for not paying homage. It was in direct response to repeated, absurd claims that PSL was purely a pokemmo creation and therefore to even think about polluting the event with showdown was a break from that purity - hence why I mentioned the purity weirdos, of which there are many. The competitiveness is probably open to endless debate with completely subjective arguments on each sides, so I don't know that it's even worth having, but I've already outlined several times the benefit we get from showdown tier (not plural) and it's accessibility. I can click a link on discord and watch a showdown match in real time, I'd have to reinstall this dumpster fire to watch any other match.

 

I'm not particularly excited about VGC just because I've never been a vgc player but the bar for competitiveness set by MMO tiers is so incredibly low I cannot imagine vgc fails to meet those standards. Again, as a spectator it's unfortunate that avenue will be cut off, but if the non existent benefits of halting a 12 season tradition to appease the purists is a compelling reason for you and others then so be it - the burden should really be on the side who wants to change the status quo, though

Edited by Gunthug

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Gunthug said:

I'm not particularly excited about VGC just because I've never been a vgc player but the bar for competitiveness set by MMO tiers is so incredibly low I cannot imagine vgc fails to meet those standards. Again, as a spectator it's unfortunate that avenue will be cut off, but if the non existent benefits of halting a 12 season tradition to appease the purists is a compelling reason for you and others then so be it - the burden should really be on the side who wants to change the status quo, though

This tbh

 

And using the "I've never played showdown in 1 year and went 4-1" as a reason to show it's not competitive is bullshit imo.. The easily accessable showdown.. Literally make a team in a few minutes and play pretty much instantly can give any noddy a fairly decent chance to get practice in and perform well, especially if you've played PokeMMO tiers throughout, the transition really isn't that hard.

 

I don't know what the outcome of the original vote was but even if only 20% of the voters wanted showdown, that's a large portion of interest and comparing that to PokeMMO tiers, it's probably similar. I've managed teams a few times and finding people back then for tiers like NU, UU or Doubles was no easier than finding a good showdown player.

 

Voting against showdown just because you don't play it is not a good reason to reject it, however, if you don't enjoy it or believe PSL should be strictly PokeMMO tiers despite it being here since the start, then fair enough.

Edited by KaynineXL

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I probably shouldn't have singled you out in particular but you're just the last post I saw on the matter (though you've made several posts against showdown tiers with little substance, IMO). Any argument for no showdown involving WC is easily discarded by the simple fact that WC teams had no real choice over who was on their roster. 12 seasons of PSL play are a lot more compelling to me than that, and from my (admittedly biased) perspective a sprinkling of showdown has always been a nice change of pace and, like I said, an easily accessible avenue for spectators and players with less time to still be involved and have a seat in the stands. 

 

I was the one who mentioned SPL and my argument was not necessarily that we owe anything to SPL, as if BKC is going to show up and scold us for not paying homage. It was in direct response to repeated, absurd claims that PSL was purely a pokemmo creation and therefore to even think about polluting the event with showdown was a break from that purity - hence why I mentioned the purity weirdos, of which there are many. The competitiveness is probably open to endless debate with completely subjective arguments on each sides, so I don't know that it's even worth having, but I've already outlined several times the benefit we get from showdown tier (not plural) and it's accessibility. I can click a link on discord and watch a showdown match in real time, I'd have to reinstall this dumpster fire to watch any other match.

 

I'm not particularly excited about VGC just because I've never been a vgc player but the bar for competitiveness set by MMO tiers is so incredibly low I cannot imagine vgc fails to meet those standards. Again, as a spectator it's unfortunate that avenue will be cut off, but if the non existent benefits of halting a 12 season tradition to appease the purists is a compelling reason for you and others then so be it - the burden should really be on the side who wants to change the status quo, though

Not gonna respond to everything, because I don't really want to get too involved in this debate (Yes I know I already have gosh, im a hypocrite), since I don't really see myself being on either side, rather more as one of the voters people want to persuade to flip flop. But I will say I dont care about purity or tradition, I just dont want psl to clutch onto showdown tiers because "tradition". The burden isnt solely on "purists" to persuade you that psl should let go of showdown tiers,  nor is it solely on "traditionalists" to persuade the voters that we ought to keep it in psl,  its on both side to persuade the people

 

e. for real though I dont think Ill respond to anything else, but feel free to quote me to make points and stuff

e.2. clarified my thoughts a little I think

Edited by AndrewHavsha

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13 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

You've had that already. PSL 12. Aka the most hypeless season ever. 

i forgot that even happened lol

 

free showdown

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2 minutes ago, Toast said:

i forgot that even happened lol

 

free showdown

Holy shit I did too. What a memorable season 

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I honestly dont mind either approach, but from a pure spectator and community standpoint I do believe that having a showdown tier adds something cool to psl: meme spectator names in the showdown chat, banter and allowing older players to participate in the event (I know they could just play mmo tiers instead but that'd require them to install the game again lmao and I love watching nik play showdown anyways)

'

was a "showdown vs no showdown" poll ever made? just these two plain options? I believe the result would be different than the current one.

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