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PSL XIII - Community Input / Discussion

Showdown or not  

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  1. 1. Showdown Tier (or not)?


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  • Poll closed on 07/19/20 at 10:59 PM

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Posted (edited)
On 7/5/2020 at 3:51 AM, calidubstep said:

Feel like that's a bigger issue for the older showdown tiers (outdated moves/types/mechanics can lead to the tier being dominated by older players -> you'll just be seeing a bunch of old dead people clash -> not as inviting to potential breakouts). And if someone wanted to improve in SD, the practice and building materials would be a lot more abundant in a current meta (matches within seconds when queuing for vgc) as opposed to an older one (can take minutes to find dpp matches, and even then it may just be the same person over and over). 

 

Overall, it's an MMO event, so a showdown tier seems irrelevant in general, but if there has to be one, vgc would be my pick. Especially with the recent meta shift post DLC (adding new/old mons, moves, etc), a qualifier for x wouldn't necessarily be at an overwhelming advantage as it'll take time for everyone to settle in and you can use that time to bridge the gap.

 

On 7/5/2020 at 4:15 AM, Umbramol said:

Having showdown in general is a bad choice in my opinion and something i will vote for when i understand the other rules that are suggested fully and decide on them.. i agree with the no dubs manager choice. Lets not fool ourselves dubs as a format differs from singles which most people learn easier, its a game for a few people which most of the events show their dominance with relative ease.. to expand on the showdown argument, we have seen in various psls or even in the ongoing world cup players that don't play pokemmo sign up for it just because i assume their friends told them to for help.. this leads in disadvantages and confusing situations. Not only in the games themselves but in manager choices aswell.. there is a good possibility that a pokemmo player doesn't know showdown players and another player/manager might find easier to pick the said showdown player he knows without drawbacks on credits. Regarding the choices in the case a showdown tier being added, SSOU seems the no-brainer pick to me, dpp ou is outdated, we had enough of smou, vgc is a different concept of what we know(kinda fuels more the dubs v singles gaps), it doesn't even exist in our game. SSOU is singles, new meta and in my opinion a tier that the gap should be easier to be closed in case a pokemmo player wants to get into it.

I won't waste a ton of time on this because quite honestly, even if showdown is added as a tier, I still may not have time to participate this season. But there are certain things I can't let fly regarding the above two assertions (and I don't mean to pick on just you two, since people say this all the time)

 

To call PSL "an MMO event" is absolutely absurd and not true. PSL is a straight, unabashed rip-off of a Smogon event, which uses exclusively showdown tiers for its games (maybe wasn't always this way, not sure how long SPL has gone on and if it predates showdown). Now, when I say it's a rip-off I'm not saying that is a bad thing, as PSL is quite honestly, in my opinion, the best thing to ever happen to MMO and I sincerely question whether the competitive scene would be where it is now without it. But, again, you cannot ignore that this event was ripped straight from Smogon and, by extension, showdown.

 

The other part of that statement that completely misses the point of PSL in general is this - whether you're playing on MMO, showdown, cartridge, whatever - you're still playing competitive pokemon. The medium is not the message, and it's ancillary to the overall goal of presenting and competing in high quality, high intensity battles. If your argument is that showdown tiers are lower quality or less intense than MMO battles that is completely fine (wrong, IMO, but fine) and I've seen that argument made a few times already. But to hide behind "this isn't showdown lol its MMO" is a poor substitution for an argument. To me, a showdown tier being included in every season, even as a manager's choice, is a small homage we can do to pay respects to the giants whose shoulders we stand on with every new PSL season. 

 

The benefits of including showdown tiers are countless, and the drawbacks near nonexistent. Metagames are always changing, and it's no surprise that some of the best players on MMO are capable of seamlessly stepping into showdown tiers and metas and adapting quickly to produce high level results. We know that the MMO metagame will change significantly in the future when more moves, HAs and mechanics are added, and including current gen showdown tiers in our PSL will continue exposing players (and spectators) to these new but rapidly approaching concepts. Plus, showdown matches are easier to schedule, easier to prepare for, and easier to spectate. Again, I recognize I'm biased here, but each and every PSL I've been a part of has had several high quality, high stakes showdown matches that, to me, endure the test of time far more than their counterpart MMO matches.

 

Anyway, wall of text aside I won't die on this hill, but thats my two cents. DPP BO3 imo but that might be kinda greedy

 

 

PS: here ya go, think. 

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 AM, ThinkNicer said:

I'm really sorry guys, but I messed up the polling. I didn't realize how easy it was to spam answers using Forms. We added a question to verify your forum username, sadly that means all the votes till now have to be declared void. Because I can't say for certain that people haven't voted twice or more. We have the data of the previous poll to compare.

Again, really sorry I totally messed up.

Please take the poll again here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSet1FFDoIdU143f4b6qKHbBS7JgP07cltAOvVzaC1QJ00hUSA/viewform

The link on the OP works as well. Thank you. 

Edited by Gunthug

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Posted (edited)

I also want to respond to Cali's point about the DPP ladder being dead, when in fact it isn't.  This is a screen I just took now:

 

TZzxw1a.png

 

Some of these battles may be on smogtours.psim.us, and you can always join that server and PM some folks to play some DPP games if you want better competition.  If you say, "Well there's only 4 games in the past 30 minutes" well you should know that there are only 4 games whose replays were saved, but there could've been many more.  There are also discord servers where you can request folks to play DPP games, get your teams reviewed, or any other advice really.  (lmk if you want links). There are YouTube channels from top players who teach you how to play DPP.  Every Thursday in showdown main you have a series of DPP-related Tours happening, of which one is DPP OU.

 

The resources are endless, and it's way easier to pick up a showdown tier than an MMO tier, I don't think this needs to even be explained why.  

 

EDIT: Adding another pic

https://i.imgur.com/u6WBxm2.png

Edited by NikhilR

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, redbluegreen said:

With a lot of these multiple choice answers there is a lot of overlap between them which would cause them to split votes. Therefor I'm hoping there will be a follow up poll with more concise options.

So for example where the no showdown format may be leading in votes if you are to combine the answers with showdown formats listed together, now showdown has more votes.
Likewise, even though VGC may have more votes than the other tiers, VGC is the only doubles format mentioned so therefor it will not be splitting votes like the others are. if the option was just between 1 singles showdown tier and vgc the results may end up being very different.

Yes, I've been thinking about it and I think we'll need a second poll in a week or so to refine the results. Layout C might have the largest slice of the cake, but the two layouts with showdown combined are around 55%. 

 

1 hour ago, redbluegreen said:

Again on the topic of managers choice but more biased this time. I think adding doubles to the managers choice adds a lot of strategic depth to the drafting process and can really help differentiate the good managers from the bad. Most of the top singles players are capable of playing every singles format to almost the same level. It becomes very easy to pick up players like Enchanteur, Mkns or Bluebreath and expect them to perform well in every managers choice tier. This just makes managers choice as a concept feel like a fairly unnecessary inclusion to the event.
If we decide to include managers choice I would prefer to see it set up in a way that gives managers more agency and creativity in roster building rather than simply just buying who they deem to be the overall best players.

I think the number 16 comes from 8 managers needing at least 2 competent players for every tier (OU, UU, NU, LC, Doubles) x2 makes 10 players per team. But like you said this isn't very realistic. There will always be teams that are stronger in certain tiers than others. That's the nature of the draft and part of the strategic decision making managers will have to make. (Cough which is best accomplished with a slow auction.  COUGH) 

 

So you're right, we should take a closer look at these manager choice restrictions and question if we need any restriction at all. Although Showdown would probably always be restricted. I'm curious about your ideas for more agency in the manager choice categories. Could you elaborate on what you mean and do you have suggestions?

 

On the topic of playoffs. They will go like this: Teams placed 1st and 2nd will automatically qualify for the playoffs. While teams placed 7th and 8th are automatically out. 3rd to 6th place will fight for the remaining 2 spots.

 

3rd will face 6th (with a 1-0 advantage)

4th will face 5th with no advantage.

In the playoffs the teams that are placed higher will receive a manager's choice, bringing the amount of matches to 9.

Edited by ThinkNicer
#SlowDraft2020

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Posted (edited)

Oh we're at the top of the page again. Sorry for the double post but this is for visibility.

 

If you've already voted but you would like to change your vote, PM me and I'll remove your old vote so you can revise it.

 

If you've voted on the first day, please note that your vote might have been deleted and please take the survey again. Reason in spoiler:

 
On 7/5/2020 at 10:43 AM, ThinkNicer said:

I'm really sorry guys, but I messed up the polling. I didn't realize how easy it was to spam answers using Forms. We added a question to verify your forum username, sadly that means all the votes till now have to be declared void. Because I can't say for certain that people haven't voted twice or more. We have the data of the previous poll to compare.

 

Again, really sorry I totally messed up.

 

Please take the poll again here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSet1FFDoIdU143f4b6qKHbBS7JgP07cltAOvVzaC1QJ00hUSA/viewform

 

The link on the OP works as well. Thank you. 

Last time I'll throw that reminder out.

Edited by ThinkNicer
#SlowDraft2020

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

To call PSL "an MMO event" is absolutely absurd and not true. PSL is a straight, unabashed rip-off of a Smogon event, which uses exclusively showdown tiers for its games (maybe wasn't always this way, not sure how long SPL has gone on and if it predates showdown).

Hey! I'll have you now that I had to rewrite a bunch of things to make it fit MMO at the time! But yes, SPL is PSLs daddy.

 

But do you know what PSL had that, SPL didn't? No?

that's right #SlowDraft

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56 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I also want to respond to Cali's point about the DPP ladder being dead, when in fact it isn't.

Capture23423.PNG.0daa247d4edf996f41c8f537de8be446.png?width=288&height=426

I should not be able to waltz my way to the top of a living ladder within a week of learning the tier, come back after a year of not touching it and increase stats 

image.png.66877626c13daf44665f322a9d433aea.png

(scared of getting haxed off so letting it decay here)

 

My point is, beating someone who just "picked their platinum team" (happened multiple times in "ladder" games) doesn't prepare me at all for a Sweet or a Gunthug or a Nik or a Linken or a Toast(?) (sry that's all the dpp people that came to mind). Like I doubt I'm close to you guys' level, and people wouldn't and shouldn't draft me for dpp, but if I wanted to get better, it's kinda hard to do with minimal competition. 

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7 minutes ago, MaatthewMLG said:

Haxball tier if real 

Nah, !rps for the win.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, calidubstep said:

Capture23423.PNG.0daa247d4edf996f41c8f537de8be446.png?width=288&height=426

I should not be able to waltz my way to the top of a living ladder within a week of learning the tier, come back after a year of not touching it and increase stats 

image.png.66877626c13daf44665f322a9d433aea.png

(scared of getting haxed off so letting it decay here)

 

My point is, beating someone who just "picked their platinum team" (happened multiple times in "ladder" games) doesn't prepare me at all for a Sweet or a Gunthug or a Nik or a Linken or a Toast(?) (sry that's all the dpp people that came to mind). Like I doubt I'm close to you guys' level, and people wouldn't and shouldn't draft me for dpp, but if I wanted to get better, it's kinda hard to do with minimal competition. 

It is very easy to get to the 1500 stage of the DPP ladder. The ladder is active in the sense that people ladder, but the best players don't constantly ladder; this doesn't mean that everyone else is worse, but just that may be a notch below.  Sometimes the top dpp players ladder if they want to test teams out, or you may find players who are just learning the tier but are still skillful competitive players because they may play new gens at a high level.  You should only run into people who just "picked their platinum team" at the initial stage, but eventually you'll run into higher calibre players.  Use the ladder as a learning opportunity.  Once you have done that, you can take your skills to smogtours.psim.us and play some of the better players there.  You can also join the DPP discord server and ask for games there as you'll find more experienced players (I can give you an invite link if you want).

Edited by NikhilR

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5 hours ago, calidubstep said:

doesn't prepare me at all for a Sweet or a Gunthug or a Nik or a Linken or a Toast(?)  

Kek

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@Gunthug it is opinionated.. i strongly believe that if we don't pay our respects noone will care and we have a big enough community in pokemmo ( the game we all play and talk about) to be able to have enough good (supposedly) players grabbing the spots for this event.. all this showdown argument to me feels like a desperate effort to fit in dead players while new players in this game do the grind, put the effort and want to prove themselves in here. Personally it doesn't interest me to have a way to fit in players that used to be good in this game in 2013-14 and just play showdown now and yes that might be biased cause im not an old player myself but it is a fact that newer less recognised players will put more effort than old inactive ones.. i strongly prefer giving those people a chance than using a spot to pay respects ( to showdown and older players that don't play the mmo anymore)

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3 hours ago, Umbramol said:

@Gunthug it is opinionated.. i strongly believe that if we don't pay our respects noone will care and we have a big enough community in pokemmo ( the game we all play and talk about) to be able to have enough good (supposedly) players grabbing the spots for this event.. all this showdown argument to me feels like a desperate effort to fit in dead players while new players in this game do the grind, put the effort and want to prove themselves in here. Personally it doesn't interest me to have a way to fit in players that used to be good in this game in 2013-14 and just play showdown now and yes that might be biased cause im not an old player myself but it is a fact that newer less recognised players will put more effort than old inactive ones.. i strongly prefer giving those people a chance than using a spot to pay respects ( to showdown and older players that don't play the mmo anymore)

first of all i dont know what you understand as new player so my view of a new player is that joined end2019/2020 so my arguments on based on that view
1 a new player can play showdown. (if a old player wanna play its up to him since he check the forums etc he is not that dead. they still like the game in a way) 


2 i think most of the people pick  know players that are active for example you umbra i think the chance someone pick me instead of you is 1%.  so new player giving a chance is nice but a small percentage of that players gonna actually play.  

 

3 what Gunthug said To call PSL "an MMO event" is absolutely absurd and not true. PSL is a straight, unabashed rip-off of a Smogon event, which uses exclusively showdown tiers for its games ( i never played psl but adding a tier thats not mmo is not that bad since i tottaly agree with Gunthug ) 

 

4 i agree with the effort a old player and a new player put in this event so as coach it up to him if he want a good player that put less efort in a match or a new player that gonna give everything to win.


5 my english is bad xD 

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What are you guys talking about of course psl is a pokemmo event. Who cares if we stole the format from spl. We don't owe smogon anything, let's not pretend we have to pay homage to them by sacrificing a tier to the showdown gods. 

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3 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

first of all i dont know what you understand as new player so my view of a new player is that joined end2019/2020 so my arguments on based on that view
1 a new player can play showdown. (if a old player wanna play its up to him since he check the forums etc he is not that dead. they still like the game in a way) 


2 i think most of the people pick  know players that are active for example you umbra i think the chance someone pick me instead of you is 1%.  so new player giving a chance is nice but a small percentage of that players gonna actually play.  

 

3 what Gunthug said To call PSL "an MMO event" is absolutely absurd and not true. PSL is a straight, unabashed rip-off of a Smogon event, which uses exclusively showdown tiers for its games ( i never played psl but adding a tier thats not mmo is not that bad since i tottaly agree with Gunthug ) 

 

4 i agree with the effort a old player and a new player put in this event so as coach it up to him if he want a good player that put less efort in a match or a new player that gonna give everything to win.


5 my english is bad xD 

You speak only for yourself, what i say is about the community.. you can play showdown not the community in general.

For the argument of the mmo event, it is a pokemmo event, ripoff or not it doesnt matter.. psl13 will be made by the pokemmo community for the pokemmo community.. so pls do not reproduce this stupid argument.

As u said ppl are gonna pick me yes so if that was the case I shouldn't care at all, if you as a new player might not get a place is not my concern, you got around 2 months ahead of you to prove yourself and get picked.. i did the exact same thing not long ago

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14 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

Yes, I've been thinking about it and I think we'll need a second poll in a week or so to refine the results. Layout C might have the largest slice of the cake, but the two layouts with showdown combined are around 55%. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, AndrewHavsha said:

What are you guys talking about of course psl is a pokemmo event. Who cares if we stole the format from spl. We don't owe smogon anything, let's not pretend we have to pay homage to them by sacrificing a tier to the showdown gods. 

55% like showdown so why not addingg it ? 

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1 minute ago, Umbramol said:

As u said ppl are gonna pick me yes so if that was the case I shouldn't care at all, if you as a new player might not get a place is not my concern, you got around 2 months ahead of you to prove yourself and get picked.. i did the exact same thing not long ago

so why you care about new people 

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Just now, Quinn010 said:

55% like showdown so why not addingg it ? 

You dont understand that this is a discussion and not a rant apparently.. arguments and counter argument to drive people into voting the option we think might be better

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1 minute ago, Quinn010 said:

so why you care about new people 

Cause i do.. why you argue with me? Cause you think with showdown you have more chances of getting picked?

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6 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

55% like showdown so why not addingg it ? 

Because the skill level difference in showdown Tiers is extremely high, we saw this this world cup, people did not understand the mechanics yet alone the meta. The sm ladder is active so it wasn't an issue of not being able to practice. 

Because I believe having each manager have a choice of a tier each week would make things more exciting and create more hype than watching 2 people who don’t understand a tier play against each other. 

But yeah I mean I AM a showdown player, I've played showdown Tiers for the last few wc and psls I've joined, and after spending all week building and practicing my team to run into a player who doesn't understand basic mechanics is kinda lame. I feel like it would be best for everyone to at least experiment with a purely mmo based psl. That being said I mean I wouldnt be distraught if showdown tier was included, for the 75% terrible games there is always 1 or 2 gems that's a pleasure to watch/compete in 

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24 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

Because the skill level difference in showdown Tiers is extremely high, we saw this this world cup, people did not understand the mechanics yet alone the meta. The sm ladder is active so it wasn't an issue of not being able to practice. 

Because I believe having each manager have a choice of a tier each week would make things more exciting and create more hype than watching 2 people who don’t understand a tier play against each other. 

But yeah I mean I AM a showdown player, I've played showdown Tiers for the last few wc and psls I've joined, and after spending all week building and practicing my team to run into a player who doesn't understand basic mechanics is kinda lame. I feel like it would be best for everyone to at least experiment with a purely mmo based psl. That being said I mean I wouldnt be distraught if showdown tier was included, for the 75% terrible games there is always 1 or 2 gems that's a pleasure to watch/compete in 

I'd like to chime in here to say that you'll have bad matches in any tier, at any point.  This is not exclusive to showdown. Managers are supposed to counteract this somewhat.

 

Because a managers role is not only to pick a team in the draft and then send a few line ups through the season. A manager should foster as much competitiveness in their team as possible. Having players that are better, teach the ones that are not. Making sure that everyone helps out with teambuilding and strategy discussions. If the team has no strong showdown/doubles/whatever player, the manager should guide the team into resources and ways to practise together.

 

PSL is a massive collaborative team event. So I've never understood the argument that 'everyone is trash in this tier so don't put it in PSL'. Any good manager, or good team, will make sure that their players get stronger throughout the season. So that at the end of the season you have many more excellent players that can carry the torch to the next set of new players.

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I think that since we removed DPP from psl, the showdown level in other tiers was just a huge joke. Whether ud want it or not, The DPP level was really high and I'd say around 80% of the matches were exciting and people knew what they were doing. 

In my opinion, if DPP doesn't get picked, then there shouldn't be a showdown tier at all.

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