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PSL XIII - Community Input / Discussion

Showdown or not  

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  1. 1. Showdown Tier (or not)?


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  • Poll closed on 07/19/20 at 10:59 PM

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4 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

thats probally true but the fact in our group were 2dubs players that dont main the tier so far as i know

You are missing the point of PSL. In World Cup, teams cannot pick their players. If a country doesnt have any doubles player, it will mean the bracket will lack competition.

That doesn't happen in PSL, where all the doubles players would be spreaded across all teams, thus meaning a more competitive season

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Laz said:

The classic 10sec auction is much better.

Smh, y'all need to be enlightened on why slow auction is the vastly superior auction

 

#SlowAuction2020

 

Edit: I'll just throw this reminder on every page, because it'll probably be missed. If you've voted on the poll the first day, please vote again. Reason below

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

I'm really sorry guys, but I messed up the polling. I didn't realize how easy it was to spam answers using Forms. We added a question to verify your forum username, sadly that means all the votes till now have to be declared void. Because I can't say for certain that people haven't voted twice or more. We have the data of the previous poll to compare.

Again, really sorry I totally messed up.

Please take the poll again here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSet1FFDoIdU143f4b6qKHbBS7JgP07cltAOvVzaC1QJ00hUSA/viewform

The link on the OP works as well. Thank you. 

 

Edited by ThinkNicer

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, pachima said:

I might be wrong and we are willing to change the decision if enough proof is given to us. However, please don't forget that in PSL X (I think), we had doubles as manager choice, which led to every single one picking doubles not because they were good with it, but because the opposing side was awful in it. As a result, in that season we had a lot of awful double matches that I would not want to witness again(I experienced this first handed cause I was a manager then), not because I do not like doubles, but because PSL is supposed to be a competitive event. Same logic, of course, applies to showdown tiers.

That was the reasoning behind the decision. Feel free to prove us otherwise, that's what this thread is for.

PS: I might try to dig older comments of that PSL about the issue in case.

iirc it was mainly one or two teams picking dubs vs some (not all) other teams that indeed didnt have the players for it, but that was mainly their own managers fault for not accounting for not drafting properly. If a manager didnt have 2 nu players you bet nu would be picked against them just as easy.

 

 

Quote

Edit: To make it more clear, the issue is the amount of good players that play the format, not how many do. It is not straightly linear and other reasons may be behind more people playing doubles such as you not needing specific unevolved forms to actually enter tours, etc. Give us at least 16 consistent double players and we'll check if that is verified. If we indeed have a large enough playerpool to play this format, then I don't see the issue of giving doubles to a manager choice, otherwise it stays as it is.

Here, this thread mentions 15 different players and I'm not even there, so you can make it 16. (other good players are also missing: rendi, sweet, mkns, mat, tito, krenz, frags, busso, etc..) so you can easily make that list size 20+

 

Edited by iJulian

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1 hour ago, iJulian said:

iirc it was mainly one or two teams picking dubs vs some (not all) other teams that indeed didnt have the players for it, but that was mainly their own managers fault for not accounting for not drafting properly. If a manager didnt have 2 nu players you bet nu would be picked against them just as easy.

 

 

Here, this thread mentions 15 different players and I'm not even there, so you can make it 16. (other good players are also missing: rendi, sweet, mkns, mat, tito, krenz, frags, busso, etc..) so you can easily make that list size 20+

 

Im not on that thread, so easy 20+ :D

 

@pachima why not add VGC and remove showdown like a tier? Staff said VGC was be added to PokeMMO on future, showdown no. Its more easier find good players on doubles than showdown, on your rule

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24 minutes ago, GabyPinkWIngs said:

Im not on that thread, so easy 20+ :D

 

@pachima why not add VGC and remove showdown like a tier? Staff said VGC was be added to PokeMMO on future, showdown no. Its more easier find good players on doubles than showdown, on your rule

Staff also said that dungeons and legendaries will be added. 7 years ago

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, GabyPinkWIngs said:

Staff said VGC was be added to PokeMMO on future, showdown no

We can't possibly add VGC to PokeMMO, if something of the sort is ever added it will just be a custom Battle Spot Doubles format that will not be a VGC format in any way because PokeMMO's content is currently matched with none of the official games that had a VGC season.

Note that training VGC2020 with Dynamax and all the new moves/mechanics will not help you (well, at least less than MMO Doubles OU) to become good at Battle Spot Doubles once it is added to PokeMMO. Irrelevant argument 

Edited by TohnR
4F was innocent, my bad

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I know the lc tournament scene has been quite inactive lately, but the doubles pool just is not strong enough. In doubles there seems to be very few good players at the top, then a huge dropoff in skill after like the top 5 or 6. While in lc, there is a more fleshed out pool of players. Additionally, OU/UU/NU is much more translateable to LC than to dubs, so we see many more players from higher tiers that can play lc as a secondary, which makes it far easier to account for in drafting. Perhaps neither should be manager's picks, but dubs certainly shouldn't be a managers pick.

 

About showdown tiers, the player pool for psl becomes thinner and thinner of top level players every season. Generally, the pool of showdown players are players that aren't going to be playing MMO tiers anyway, with a couple exceptions. Therefore, adding a showdown tier just adds more depth to the lineup while not taking away from the rest of the lineup. Overall, having a showdown tier, specifically dpp, is a positive to the player pool.

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17 minutes ago, TohnR said:

We can't possibly add VGC to PokeMMO, if something of the sort is ever added it will just be a custom Battle Spot Doubles format that will not be a VGC format in any way because PokeMMO's content is currently matched with none of the official games that had a VGC season.

Note that training VGC2020 with Dynamax and all the new moves/mechanics will not help you (well, at least less than MMO Doubles OU) to become good at Battle Spot Doubles once it is added to PokeMMO. Irrelevant argument 

So its irrelevant because we dont have vgc2020 mechanichs on pokemmo, but showdown OU its fine because we dont have showdown OU mechanics on pokemmo. I see.

Idk how u dont see, we dont have in pokemmo any tier like "a tier", all are "customs" modes if u compare with showdown/smogon. So I dont know why we cant have a custom (with pokemmo metagame) vgc mode, I play a couple of VGC tours (unnoficials) and was funny without problems

 

47 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Staff also said that dungeons and legendaries will be added. 7 years ago

staff rate is fair
 

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VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

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Just now, OrangeManiac said:

VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

 

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10 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

image.png.a3f57ef77bc84bc273cbab7b4421ab0a.png

Edited by calidubstep

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9 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

 

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Posted (edited)

I like the idea of a slow auction, showdown shouldn't be included as a tier, make it 2xOU, UU NU, Dubs, LC, 2xManager Choice (Let a manager choose dubs, I may not like it, but that's not a reason to not have the option) 

I don't fully understand the Selling/Butout options yet, but they look interesting, I dunno where everyone stands on it but could be cool to include free agents who werent picked up by the auction and set their price at the minimum or something. 

Edited by AndrewHavsha
fixed grammar because I cant type

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In the case we get vgc as a psl format, can we not have vgc20? Is probably the most unbalanced/stupid season, and sucks ass to spectate. 17, 18 or even older formats would be way more competitive and entertaining.

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1 minute ago, Zigh said:

In the case we get vgc as a psl format, can we not have vgc20? Is probably the most unbalanced/stupid season, and sucks ass to spectate. 17, 18 or even older formats would be way more competitive and entertaining.

god please not vgc16 with all round same teams everywhere

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1 minute ago, Zigh said:

In the case we get vgc as a psl format, can we not have vgc20? Is probably the most unbalanced/stupid season, and sucks ass to spectate. 17, 18 or even older formats would be way more competitive and entertaining.

It's an interesting proposition, I'm not too familiar with VGC20 so I don't know if it's really that bad. Choosing an earlier season might also level the playing field a little.

 

45 minutes ago, AndrewHavsha said:

I like the idea of a slow auction, showdown shouldn't be included as a tier, make it 2xOU, UU NU, Dubs, LC, 2xManager Choice (Let a manager choose dubs, I may not like it, but that's not a reason to not have the option) 

I don't fully understand the Selling/Butout options yet, but they look interesting, I dunno where everyone stands on it but could be cool to include free agents who werent picked up by the auction and set their price at the minimum or something. 

Remember to vote in the survey.

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1 minute ago, ThinkNicer said:

It's an interesting proposition, I'm not too familiar with VGC20 so I don't know if it's really that bad. Choosing an earlier season might also level the playing field a little.

@OrangeManiac Your opinion here would be invaluable, pls respond

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16 minutes ago, Zigh said:

In the case we get vgc as a psl format, can we not have vgc20? Is probably the most unbalanced/stupid season, and sucks ass to spectate. 17, 18 or even older formats would be way more competitive and entertaining.

When u say older you mean 2010 right?

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

@OrangeManiac Your opinion here would be invaluable, pls respond

Alright, you got it.

First of all, I'd start by saying that I don't think that playing any other VGC format than the current one makes any sense. There isn't even a Showdown ladder for any old VGC format. And even though old VGC formats do exist in Showdown code in a way that you can challenge people in those formats, there's just no people willing to battle in those old VGC formats even if you kindly requested a battle in Showdown chatrooms. VGC players aren't really interested about "objectively good metagames", they're always concentrating on the current VGC format no matter how bad the metagame is because the goal of a VGC player is to become Pokemon World Champion, rather than to enjoy good formats. Because there's a complete lack of an environment to practice in, people aren't even able to create good Pokemon teams because any good VGC team comes with a lot of trial and error. What I'm expecting is to people just to research the internet for some pastebins of old VGC teams and roll with that, completely unaware why is any moveset or EV spread what it is. I don't think that results in a very high level of competition.

 


Then to talk about VGC 2020...
 

I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying that this generation made me completely relearn how to play Pokemon. This is largely due to the newly introduced mechanic, Dynamax. It messes up the intuition of any established competitive Pokemon player. For three turns, Dynamax does basically three things: It doubles the HP of the Pokemon, it boosts the power of (most) moves and it gives secondary effects depending of the typing of the attack (for example, boosting/lowering stats, setting up weather/terrain). This means that rather than hitting the moves with most damage, going for those helpful secondary effects is very often the most important aspect to look for when making optimal plays.

Another concept that feels very counter-intuitive for any established competitive Pokemon player is the prevalence of Weakness Policy, especially in a Dynamax metagame. Hitting your opponent with super effective attacks (which is what you thought you were supposed to do) can result in an immediate loss. If you managed to activate the Weakness Policy of opposing Dynamaxed Pokemon, you're in lot of trouble. Chances are your "super effective" damage only tickled their Dynamax and now they're shooting off +2 powered Max Moves, which mostly likely can become unstoppable for your team. For many, this feels like the most bullshit part about VGC 2020. Why am I punished for hitting opponent with super effective attacks, for playing "correctly"? Because it's VGC 2020, fuck you, that's why. 

Now after bringing the worst of Dynamax, I also want to talk about the positives. It makes matchups more balanced and makes the gameplay more dynamic. Having "autoloss" matchups in Dynamax metagame is surprisingly rare. This is because you can Dynamax your biggest counter to most threatening opposing Pokemon, as a way to balance the difficult matchup. And because you can Dynamax any of your Pokemon, you can defend yourself even if you managed to mispredict the Pokemon your opponent wanted to bring. This can make every game in best of 3 set very unique and interesting. Also whether you Dynamax early or Dynamax late is an interesting consideration, which can put the mindgames of a battle to another level. Which player has to pull the trigger first?

 

Also lastly, defensive play is almost non-existant in VGC 2020. Protect isn't such a great move because Max Moves do 25% damage through Protect and with the power level the metagame has, your Pokemon can be almost half-dead even after a Protect. For people liking their Doubles as defensive, positional playing, this might not be the most fun metagame for them. VGC 2020 is about hitting first and hitting hard. I think the ladder was topped with a team that had 0x Protects in the entire team?

TL;DR If you're to have VGC in PSL, it has to be the newest format and Dynamax makes you completely relearn the game of Pokemon again. So depends if you're willing to do that.

P.S. 

Spoiler

VGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGCVGC

 

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I know you all like VGC, but if you thought the skill gap was big in smou, its just going to be that much more monumental in VGC, please dont put us through that for a meme

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Just going to throw in a few of my thoughts.

 

Spoiler

Trigger warning for gb: I may at points simply write tier instead of tier&format for the sake of brevity.

 

With a lot of these multiple choice answers there is a lot of overlap between them which would cause them to split votes. Therefor I'm hoping there will be a follow up poll with more concise options.

So for example where the no showdown format may be leading in votes if you are to combine the answers with showdown formats listed together, now showdown has more votes.
Likewise, even though VGC may have more votes than the other tiers, VGC is the only doubles format mentioned so therefor it will not be splitting votes like the others are. if the option was just between 1 singles showdown tier and vgc the results may end up being very different.

 

On the topic of managers choice tiers, I have absolutely no clue where this magic number of 16 consistent players comes from in order to qualify for managers choice (and if that ever was the requirement then there is absolutely 0 justification for not including doubles). You need to account for the managers themselves subtracting players from the pool, as well as possible roster limitations with the possibility of one manager trying to hoard the players who are capable of playing that tier as well as a lot of the players who signed up for that tier also being split between the other tiers they signed up for. And this is not even mentioning the possibility for opposing managers to both select the same tier. 

If the argument is to have a consistent player available to ensure quality games the number you should be looking for should be 30+, if not more. But given our player base that is probably only achievable in OU, although admittedly UU&NU come closer than Doubles&LC.

We have seen in every single event, especially WC, PSLs with 10 tiers & PSLs with managers choice tiers plenty of dog shit quality games in every single tier including OU, this is just what happens when our small player base is split.

 

Again on the topic of managers choice but more biased this time. I think adding doubles to the managers choice adds a lot of strategic depth to the drafting process and can really help differentiate the good managers from the bad. Most of the top singles players are capable of playing every singles format to almost the same level. It becomes very easy to pick up players like Enchanteur, Mkns or Bluebreath and expect them to perform well in every managers choice tier. This just makes managers choice as a concept feel like a fairly unnecessary inclusion to the event.
If we decide to include managers choice I would prefer to see it set up in a way that gives managers more agency and creativity in roster building rather than simply just buying who they deem to be the overall best players.

 

Lastly maybe I missed something but I saw no mention of playoffs. What exactly is the plan for it? 4 team play offs? 6 team play offs? Are the teams that placed higher up in the regular season going to get any kind of advantage maybe in the form of a bye or extra managers choice tier? Or is top 4 going to be the only thing that matters?

 

Spoiler

VGC20 is trash, but so are the other showdown tiers.

 

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On 7/4/2020 at 8:36 PM, pachima said:
  • Tier Structure:

    • A: 2x OU, UU, NU, LC, Doubles, 2x Manager’s Choice (no Doubles)

    • B: OU, UU, NU, LC, Doubles, Showdown, 2x Manager’s Choice (no Doubles or Showdown)

    • C: 2x OU, 2x UU, NU, LC, Doubles, Showdown

A. Ok but why no dubs ? No sens to do that for me.

 

B. It depend which SD tiers would be chosen. And again why no dubs as manager choice.

 

C. Meh I don’t like this one 

 

D. Where is « la réponse D » ?

 

dubs is not a tiers but it’s something common in PokeMMO and I think there is enough players for that format.

 

btw, LC 8G > all showdown tiers 

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