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Petition to buff dragon types.


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As we all know, generation five used to be the dragons metagame, with outrages and draco meteors being fired off from every corner. In PokeMMO's current metagame, however, dragons have been nerfed heavily.  The strongest user of the move Draco Meteor, Hydreigon, is unable to learn the move as previously, it had been stated to be "too overpowered" due to it having access to the move. Again, outrage went from being the strongest viable physical dragon type STAB, to now being reduced to its generation 3 counterpart as a worse, and completely unviable physical dragon type attack as its base power has been lowered from its original BP of 120 to 90, effectively making it just slightly stronger than dragon claw, but with an unfair drawback of being locked into the move for two to five turns, which is highly unjustified compared to its base power.

These facts are known by everyone, and I'm simply restating them to point out that buffing dragon types, rather, restoring them to their former power level is not a bad idea. Returning the ability to learn Draco Meteor to Hydreigon will by no means, make it overpowered, since almost every team in OU uses either Chansey or Blissey, both of which take minimal damage from the move. Not only Chansey and Blissey, even Umbreon, which has recently joined the OU tier, can for the most part deal with Hydreigon, as Draco Meteor's special attack drop allows it to survive the second hit, and successfully heal up with the combination of wish and protect. The calc is shown here for referrence,

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 329-389 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- not a KO

While I will admit that Outrage being restored to its former power of base 120 will be troublesome for teams without Skarmory and/or Ferrothorn, at present, the abundance of OU teams that utilize both the aforementioned Pokemon should for the most part negate that problem. Even besides the two Pokemon that I have just mentioned, Pokemon like Cofagrigus, Dusclops and Milotic are also more than capable of taking on boosted outrages from a mon like Salamence.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 168-198 (52.6 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 121-144 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Although it may seem that the aforementioned mons are in danger of being 2HKO'd by a boosted Salamence, keep in mind that Cofagrigus and Dusclops both have access to Will-o-wisp and pain split, giving them a means of crippling Salamence, and then restoring their health to be able to take further hits. Meanwhile, Milotic more often than not carries Ice Beam, which OHKO's Salamence from full.

And those are just a few examples, more such displays of Pokemon being able to deal with dragons exist, both offensively and defensively. And therefore, I see no problem in Hydreigon once again being allowed to learn Draco Meteor and Outrage having its power restored to base 120.

93dea64de6051d77de0a1f0eb6dfb99c.jpg

Edited by Saad4206969
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2 hours ago, Saad4206969 said:

As we all know, generation five used to be the dragons metagame, with outrages and draco meteors being fired off from every corner. In PokeMMO's current metagame, however, dragons have been nerfed heavily.  The strongest user of the move Draco Meteor, Hydreigon, is unable to learn the move as previously, it had been stated to be "too overpowered" due to it having access to the move. Again, outrage went from being the strongest viable physical dragon type STAB, to now being reduced to its generation 3 counterpart as a worse, and completely unviable physical dragon type attack as its base power has been lowered from its original BP of 120 to 90, effectively making it just slightly stronger than dragon claw, but with an unfair drawback of being locked into the move for two to five turns, which is highly unjustified compared to its base power.

These facts are known by everyone, and I'm simply restating them to point out that buffing dragon types, rather, restoring them to their former power level is not a bad idea. Returning the ability to learn Draco Meteor to Hydreigon will by no means, make it overpowered, since almost every team in OU uses either Chansey or Blissey, both of which take minimal damage from the move. Not only Chansey and Blissey, even Umbreon, which has recently joined the OU tier, can for the most part deal with Hydreigon, as Draco Meteor's special attack drop allows it to survive the second hit, and successfully heal up with the combination of wish and protect. The calc is shown here for referrence,

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 329-389 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- not a KO

While I will admit that Outrage being restored to its former power of base 120 will be troublesome for teams without Skarmory and/or Ferrothorn, at present, the abundance of OU teams that utilize both the aforementioned Pokemon should for the most part negate that problem. Even besides the two Pokemon that I have just mentioned, Pokemon like Cofagrigus, Dusclops and Milotic are also more than capable of taking on boosted outrages from a mon like Salamence.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 168-198 (52.6 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 121-144 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Although it may seem that the aforementioned mons are in danger of being 2HKO'd by a boosted Salamence, keep in mind that Cofagrigus and Dusclops both have access to Will-o-wisp and pain split, giving them a means of crippling Salamence, and then restoring their health to be able to take further hits. Meanwhile, Milotic more often than not carries Ice Beam, which OHKO's Salamence from full.

And those are just a few examples, more such displays of Pokemon being able to deal with dragons exist, both offensively and defensively. And therefore, I see no problem in Hydreigon once again being allowed to learn Draco Meteor and Outrage having its power restored to base 120.

93dea64de6051d77de0a1f0eb6dfb99c.jpg

mandibuzz,skarmory,hyppowdon,ferrothorn smh, maybe umbreon too, what else can wall it? also who tf uses outrage on salamece to, also hydreigon doesn't have access to draco meteor pretty sure, don't see any problem with em

Edited by DarylDixon
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13 hours ago, DarylDixon said:

mandibuzz,skarmory,hyppowdon,ferrothorn smh, maybe umbreon too, what else can wall it? also who tf uses outrage on salamece to, also hydreigon doesn't have access to draco meteor pretty sure, don't see any problem with em

That's what he means, he wants to buff Outrage and make Hydreigon learn Draco Meteor

Personally, I don't think buffing any of them is good for the meta. I've only been playing OU for a week now and got to 630, being able to face against a lot of team archetypes. Tbh Draco Hydra it's just a nuke to any pokemon not named Chansey or Blissey. Even Ferro takes > 50%, you know something's wrong when a not super effective move does more than half to Ferro , and being able to just randomly nuke whatever you feel like doesn't look good, specially when the only drawback you have is getting your SpA at -2 (really not a drawback when each time you trade that for an opposing Mon). I do think that if you run it specs it gets outsped by a lot of good Mons that can easily OHKO it (Salamence, Garchomp, Mienshao, Scarf Tar tho who tf uses scarf tar lol), but it's very easy to get rid of those Mons with the rest of the team and very easy to get momentum for Hydreigon with a VoltTurn archetype. It's just way too free to set him up to get a kill.

Outrage is also something that might make Dragons just spammed af. On BW OU, there is an archetype called DragMag, not sure if it exists here, where you put a Magnezone to get rid of the switches like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Jirachi (doesn't exist here) and just spam 2-3 dragons, click Draco/Outrage and kill everything. It's balanced on Smogon because stuff like Landorus exist, but I don't think we really have a way to balance it here other than going DragMag vs DragMag or force a Shed Shell on everything just so you don't get trapped (which at the end isn't even that amazing since you still take >50% from banded Outrages/Draco) + force the use of multiple scarfs. 

Just saying what I think might happen. Again, I'm no expert on PokeMMO meta, I might be wrong, personal opinion here. Though I do think there is no way that they will buff the moves, discussion regarding it might be fun to have.

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7 hours ago, Akaruyo said:

That's what he means, he wants to buff Outrage and make Hydreigon learn Draco Meteor

Personally, I don't think buffing any of them is good for the meta. I've only been playing OU for a week now and got to 630, being able to face against a lot of team archetypes. Tbh Draco Hydra it's just a nuke to any pokemon not named Chansey or Blissey. Even Ferro takes > 50%, you know something's wrong when a not super effective move does more than half to Ferro , and being able to just randomly nuke whatever you feel like doesn't look good, specially when the only drawback you have is getting your SpA at -2 (really not a drawback when each time you trade that for an opposing Mon). I do think that if you run it specs it gets outsped by a lot of good Mons that can easily OHKO it (Salamence, Garchomp, Mienshao, Scarf Tar tho who tf uses scarf tar lol), but it's very easy to get rid of those Mons with the rest of the team and very easy to get momentum for Hydreigon with a VoltTurn archetype. It's just way too free to set him up to get a kill.

Outrage is also something that might make Dragons just spammed af. On BW OU, there is an archetype called DragMag, not sure if it exists here, where you put a Magnezone to get rid of the switches like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Jirachi (doesn't exist here) and just spam 2-3 dragons, click Draco/Outrage and kill everything. It's balanced on Smogon because stuff like Landorus exist, but I don't think we really have a way to balance it here other than going DragMag vs DragMag or force a Shed Shell on everything just so you don't get trapped (which at the end isn't even that amazing since you still take >50% from banded Outrages/Draco) + force the use of multiple scarfs. 

Just saying what I think might happen. Again, I'm no expert on PokeMMO meta, I might be wrong, personal opinion here. Though I do think there is no way that they will buff the moves, discussion regarding it might be fun to have.

Scarf Hydra doesn't do anywhere near 50% to steels with Draco, and if you run specs, there are countless pokemon capable of outspeeding and knocking you out(salamence, garchomp, Scarf Darminitan to name a few), and too many things wall Hydreigon. Giving it added fire power is not a bad idea.

On top of that, dragon claw is a mediocre STAB move that barely gets any kills. A swords dance boosted Garchomp still fails to 2HKO things like Cofagrigus and Eviolite dusclops, giving it a reliable STAB move to take down walls after a boost is not a bad idea, especially since you've earned a knock out by maneuvering around your opponent to successfully grab a swords dance in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

Given that garchomp is the best mon in the game right now I don’t think buffing outrage makes even a tiny bit of sense. The Draco-less hydreigon situation is annoying though, mostly because it’s a pointless complex ban. 

Just because it's the best mon at the moment doesn't mean that it can't be improved. Same goes for other physically offensive dragon types that require the added muscle provided by the old Outrage.

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10 hours ago, Saad4206969 said:

Just because it's the best mon at the moment doesn't mean that it can't be improved. Same goes for other physically offensive dragon types that require the added muscle provided by the old Outrage.

Do you want garchomp banned?

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17 hours ago, Saad4206969 said:

Scarf Hydra doesn't do anywhere near 50% to steels with Draco, and if you run specs, there are countless pokemon capable of outspeeding and knocking you out(salamence, garchomp, Scarf Darminitan to name a few), and too many things wall Hydreigon. Giving it added fire power is not a bad idea.

On top of that, dragon claw is a mediocre STAB move that barely gets any kills. A swords dance boosted Garchomp still fails to 2HKO things like Cofagrigus and Eviolite dusclops, giving it a reliable STAB move to take down walls after a boost is not a bad idea, especially since you've earned a knock out by maneuvering around your opponent to successfully grab a swords dance in the first place.

Bro you're literally complaining that Garchomp can't 1HKO PHYSICAL WALLS that are meant to WALL at +2 LOL

 

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On 7/4/2020 at 5:20 AM, Saad4206969 said:

Returning the ability to learn Draco Meteor to Hydreigon will by no means, make it overpowered, since almost every team in OU uses either Chansey or Blissey, both of which take minimal damage from the move.

 

0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 218-257 (60.2 - 70.9%)

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 109-129 (30.1 - 35.6%)

 

Add stealth rock dmg or work up set and done

 

was gonna add more things, but I felt like I lost some braincells reading past that sentence

Edited by Zigh
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