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July-Movement Discussion Thread

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Risadex said:

Even been much more slow, Conkeldurr fits almost the same situation of chomp, it has very few checks if running right move. IF you dont have cofagrigus in your team, you probably have no safe switch-ins for any move Flame Orb conkeldurr have, thats it. Cofagrigus has more usage than high ammount of stuff and I agree he ha ve a lot more utilities, but mandibuzz does also have more uses than just try to wall garchomp.

I addressed this many times and I will do so again. Conkeldurr is not on the same level of Garchomp. Conkeldurr has few checks indeed. But even with few checks, it still got a very large amount of checks compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr with only 1 stab, poor speed, less bulk (flame orb hurts its bulk even more), less resistances and no immunity is so easy to revenge kill or check compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr also has much stronger counters in Cofagrigus and Hippowdon which are incredibly more viable than Mandibuzz and Umbreon. 

Edited by gbwead

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I addressed this many times and I will do so again. Conkeldurr is not on the same level of Garchomp. Conkeldurr has few checks indeed. But even with few checks, it still got a very large amount of checks compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr with only 1 stab, poor speed, less bulk, less resistances and no immunity is so easy to revenge kill or check compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr also have much stronger counters in Cofagrigus and Hippowdon which are incredibly more viable than Mandibuzz and Garchomp. 

What are some of your Conk checks other than Cofagrigus? I would like to know.  Also the biggest difference between Conk and Chomp in terms of bulk is the special defense, but because Conk is slow, it can afford to invest in its bulk.  Conk's primary weakness is Psychic and Flying type moves, of which the former mostly exists with Reuni and I think Flying is mostly common with Skarmory.  But it's not a move that a lot of other pokemon pack on.

 

Hippo is hardly a counter to Conk when it is nearly 2hko'd.

+1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 A lot of Conks invest in speed nowadays (thereby reducing its bulk for sure), so it's highly unlikely that Hippo will be faster than it and will be able to slack off on the damage.  If you add rocks on the field, Conk has a better chance of winning.  With Drain Punch, that lack of bulk might not be so problematic if it can then just heal off the damage.

 

The best Conk answer is Cofagrigus, only.

 

Edited by NikhilR

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

What are some of your Conk checks other than Cofagrigus? I would like to know.  Also the biggest difference between Conk and Chomp in terms of bulk is the special defense, but because Conk is slow, it can afford to invest in its bulk.  Conk's primary weakness is Psychic and Flying type moves, of which the former mostly exists with Reuni and I think Flying is mostly common with Skarmory.  But it's not a move that a lot of other pokemon pack on.

 

Hippo is hardly a counter to Conk when it is nearly 2hko'd.

+1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 A lot of Conks invest in speed nowadays (thereby reducing its bulk for sure), so it's highly unlikely that Hippo will be faster than it and will be able to slack off on the damage.  If you add rocks on the field, Conk has a better chance of winning.  With Drain Punch, that lack of bulk might not be so problematic if it can then just heal off the damage.

 

The best Conk answer is Cofagrigus, only.

 

At this point, I hope everyone is aware that Hippo should run speed investment, so yes it is a very solid Conkeldurr counter. A counter that people have played before and still play today. 

The most well known checks to Conkeldurr would be Gengar, Starmie, Chandelure, Reuniclus, Salamence, Gliscor and Togekiss. Keep in mind that nearly all of those are also capable of switching into Conkeldurr on the right prediction. Garchomp doesn't have as many checks and they certainly will never be able to afford switching into a Dragon Claw.

Edited by gbwead

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15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

yes volt immunity nice but garchomp one burn = useless but infernape one volt switch = not useless.  garchomp sub mean no fire fang = wall skarm.

 

monkey no bulk but fast and good coverage.  fight / fire / rock hit everything.  what it not hit?  also monkey with one sd = power to kill everything.  same like garchomp, no?

 

yes wide len mean no berry, but no need water berry for tenta because scald no kill in one turn.  yes less risk for garchomp because 95% accuracy, i admit.

 

eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, you dclaw into ferro rocky helmet, you fire fang or eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, then you not know whether to sd or dclaw or fire and then garchomp = dead because opp smart.  monkey just blaze kick = dead glisc and ferrothorn.

 

blaze also possible crit and burn, very nice.

 

monkey have other weakness yes, but if monkey carry psychic berry you run reuni = reuni dead.  if monkey run ground berry and you use eq = eq user dead.  you not know what berry monkey has, so what pokemon you send in vs monkey?  garchomp i know is lo or yache at least.

 

Infernape >>>>>>> Garchomp

 

 

i know that you want to play

but sorry not today 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, gbwead said:

At this point, I hope everyone is aware that Hippo should run speed investment, so yes it is a very solid Conkeldurr counter. A counter that people have played before and still play today. 

 

Well the question then becomes "how much speed should I invest?" because how do you know you're running enough speed to outspeed your opponent's Conk?  The only way to do this is to make sure you then outspeed a 252 speed Conk, and by doing this, you undermine Hippo's ability to then wall other mons simply because Conk was too problematic.

 

36 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The most well known checks to Conkeldurr would be Gengar, Starmie, Chandelure, Reuniclus, Salamence, Gliscor and Togekiss. Keep in mind that nearly all of those are also capable of switching into Conkeldurr on the right prediction. Garchomp doesn't have as many checks and they certainly will never be able to afford switching into a Dragon Claw.

Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch.
 

Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants.
 

So how are these checks?  Togekiss is a great answer because of its ability to air slash flinch.  Chandelure dies to one rock slide after Conk uses bulk up.  Reuniclus probably loses to the Bulk Up Careful variant if it has psyshock + if Conk user plays it properly.  The only pokemon that's capable of walling all sets is Cofagrigus.

Edited by NikhilR

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8 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Well the question then becomes "how much speed should I invest?" because how do you know you're running enough speed to outspeed your opponent's Conk?  The only way to do this is to make sure you then outspeed a 252 speed Conk, and by doing this, you undermine Hippo's ability to then wall other mons simply because Conk was too problematic.

To this day, I still haven't faced a single 252 speed Conk. Imo, that is possibly the least viable conk possible. However, Hippo doesn't need to counter every single Conkeldurr set, it just needs to stop the vast majority of Conks and it does just that. For instance, I have seen some conks run some weird ev spreads with Stone Edge + Bulk Up or a random toxic just to beat Cofagrigus. That doesn't take anything from Cofagrigus itself as a great counter. It just means the player with Conk is willing to sacrifice a lot of Conk's viability and that's a good thing.

 

8 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch.
 

Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants.
 

So how are these checks?  Togekiss is a great answer because of its ability to air slash flinch.  Chandelure dies to one rock slide after Conk uses bulk up.  Reuniclus probably loses to the Bulk Up Careful variant if it has psyshock + if Conk user plays it properly.  The only pokemon that's capable of walling all sets is Cofagrigus.

You're giving me 10 different sets here. When I'm talking about Garchomp, I'm talking about one single set. I'm not saying Garchomp and Conkeldurr are not versatile, but there is an undeniable difference when you need 10 sets in order to accomplish what Garchomp can do with only 1 or 2 sets. However, if you are worried about these bulk sets with coverage issues, you can simply pair up the checks together to form a defensive core. Chandelure + Gliscor. Tentacruel + Salamence. Don't run Psyshock on Reuniclus, it's the least popular option already. None of these mons are actually bad or mons you would want to avoid playing. They are incredibly viable anyways. Most of the time tho, these checks by themselves will be enough to beat the regular Flame Orb set.

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16 minutes ago, gbwead said:

To this day, I still haven't faced a single 252 speed Conk. Imo, that is possibly the least viable conk possible. However, Hippo doesn't need to counter every single Conkeldurr set, it just needs to stop the vast majority of Conks and it does just that. For instance, I have seen some conks run some weird ev spreads with Stone Edge + Bulk Up or a random toxic just to beat Cofagrigus. That doesn't take anything from Cofagrigus itself as a great counter. It just means the player with Conk is willing to sacrifice a lot of Conk's viability and that's a good thing.

Given that the most popular Conk set is a Flame Orb set, I'd say that 1) if you're using to Hippo to counter it and 2) if Hippo can only counter if it outspeeds it, then that's an issue because you don't really know what speed the Conk user is using.  Even if let's say it's a 252 speed Conk, then if it muscles past Hippo, it's very likely to cause more defensive holes in your team because unlike Garchomp, it can drain punch and recover its health.  It also has access to priority which is threatening for revenge killers.

 

26 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You're giving me 10 different sets here. When I'm talking about Garchomp, I'm talking about one single set. I'm not saying Garchomp and Conkeldurr are not versatile, but there is an undeniable difference when you need 10 sets in order to accomplish what Garchomp can do with only 1 or 2 sets. However, if you are worried about these bulk sets with coverage issues, you can simply pair up the checks together to form a defensive core. Chandelure + Gliscor. Tentacruel + Salamence. Don't run Psyshock on Reuniclus, it's the least popular option already. None of these mons are actually bad or mons you would want to avoid playing. They are incredibly viable anyways. 

Yes you only gave me one Garchomp set, which was the SD Yache set.  However, that set is the best Garchomp set, so it's not like I have to be prepared for anything more than that because anything else is just inferior.  When it comes to Conk, almost every set it can run is threatening and capable of sweeping, even though the Flame Orb set is more popular .  You said that if I'm worried about coverage, then I can run a few checks to form a defensive core.  But can I not say the same thing with regards to Garchomp by saying run one ice beamer to break yache + revenge killer?

 

29 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Most of the time tho, these checks by themselves will be enough to beat the regular Flame Orb set.

But this is only true if you have the right check to its set, which you may not know until it's too late.

 

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6 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Given that the most popular Conk set is a Flame Orb set, I'd say that 1) if you're using to Hippo to counter it and 2) if Hippo can only counter if it outspeeds it, then that's an issue because you don't really know what speed the Conk user is using.  Even if let's say it's a 252 speed Conk, then if it muscles past Hippo, it's very likely to cause more defensive holes in your team because unlike Garchomp, it can drain punch and recover its health.  It also has access to priority which is threatening for revenge killers.

I don't need to know speed the Conk user is using since 252 speed Conkeldurr is hardly a thing. Hippowdon counters Conkeldurr to a very reasonable extent. Also, keep in mind that even if you run full speed Conkeldurr, you still do not have a guaranteed 2HKO and you still need to predict properly. Also, a Conkeldurr with no bulk that manages to go through a Rocky Helmet Hippo is probably on the verge of death. It's not ideal, but like I said it's good enough considering the unlikeliness of this scenario happening in our current meta. I have played a shit ton of Hippo Rocky Helmet to stop Conk and it's very solid from my experience.

 

 

13 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Yes you only gave me one Garchomp set, which was the SD Yache set.  However, that set is the best Garchomp set, so it's not like I have to be prepared for anything more than that because anything else is just inferior. 

That logic is completely flawed. Imo, yes, SD Yache set is the best set , but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the fact that there are other sets. If you only prepare for that set, then when you send your Cofagrigus or Bold Rotom against Garchomp, you need to be prepare to click that forfeit button if that Garchomp is holding a Lum Berry or hides behind a sub.

 

 

18 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

When it comes to Conk, almost every set it can run is threatening and capable of sweeping, even though the Flame Orb set is more popular .  

No!

 

"Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch." 

This is not as threatening  and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do not give a shit about that set.

 

"Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants."

I hope you are kidding if you think this is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr. I have seen this before in action. It's complete gimmicky matchup fishing garbage.

 

There are issues with every Conkeldurr sets and these issues are considerably more numerous and important than the issues that face the Garchomp Yache set.

 

26 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

You said that if I'm worried about coverage, then I can run a few checks to form a defensive core.  But can I not say the same thing with regards to Garchomp by saying run one ice beamer to break yache + revenge killer?

No. This is entirely different. We are talking about checks here. The definition of a check is as follows:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

Fast check example:

For Conkeldurr

Spoiler

 

Spec Starmie if given a free switch will OHKO Conkeldurr.

Spec Starmie can OHKO Conkeldurr by taking hardly any dmg aside from Mach Punch Conkeldurr.

 

For Garchomp

Spoiler

 

Spec Starmie if given a free switch will break Garchomp Yache Berry, take a big hit from Garchomp and then kill Garchomp if Garchomp stays the next turn.

Spec Starmie will be able to take down Garchomp at the cost of getting hit an EQ that will leave Starmie with at most 25%, not to mention there is no guarantee Garchomp will actually stay to get killed after doing that 75% dmg EQ. 

 

 

Bulky check example:

For Conkeldurr

Spoiler

 

Reuniclus if given a free switch will OHKO Conkeldurr.

Reuniclus will take a huge hit from Facade Conkeldurr (assuming flame orb is active) before killing Conk. This means that Reuniclus will be left off with at most 45% of its health.

 

For Garchomp

Spoiler

 

Milotic if given a free switch will break Garchomp Yache Berry after Garchomp does SD and then will be able to finish off Garchomp after taking a hit from a +2 EQ.

Milotic will have to take a +2 EQ from Garchomp before finishing off Garchomp. This means Milotic will be left with at most with 29% of its total health.

 

 

Whether we are talking about faster checks or bulkier checks, in both cases, the Conkeldurr check is always better left off after doing it's job than the Garchomp check and there is less risk involved.

 

Let's say you do not have a free switch. What then happens to Garchomp and Conkeldurr checks?

 

Fast check example:

For Conkeldurr

Spoiler

Spec Starmie can switch into Ice Punch, Drain Punch, Mach Punch and even Facade if Flame Orb is not active yet.

Prediction wise, this is not very hard.

For Garchomp

Spoiler

Spec Starmie can switch into Fire Fang and that's it.

If Garchomp does anything, but Fire Fang it will be able to take down Starmie.

 

Bulky check example:

For Conkeldurr

Spoiler

Reuniclus can switch into Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Ice Punch and even Facade if Flame Orb is not active yet.

Prediction wise, this is also not very hard.

For Garchomp

Spoiler

Milotic can switch into Fire Fang. If it switches into Dragon Claw, it has a low chance of dying to SD + EQ in the next two turns. If it switches into EQ, it has a high chance of dying to SD + EQ in the next two turns. If it switches into SD, it just dies. There is nothing easy about the prediction here.

Once again, checking Conkeldurr is significantly easier to checking Garchomp.

 

 

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

But this is only true if you have the right check to its set, which you may not know until it's too late.

So you choose to only prepare for Yache Berry Garchomp because all other sets of Garchomp are inferior. But Conkeldurr, you feel the need to prepare for the Flame Orb sets, the Bulk up Rock slide set, the bulk up ice punch set, the bulk up payback set, etc. I'm sorry but if this is how you perceive the OU meta, there is no point in continuing this discussion because clearly we do not have the same priorities at all. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, gbwead said:

In the case of Rotom, it's important to keep in mind that Rotom has to switch in front of Garchomp, take the risk of missing Wil-O-Wisp and then it has to switch out in order to stay alive. Garchomp does enough damage prior to getting burned that Rotom is in range of getting killed despite Garchomp being burned. This means Rotom Bold is a good pivot against Garchomp only if you run another physical wall or very bulky pokemon that can take a second hit. Offense and balance rarely have enough room for one physical wall, so expecting to run two is unrealistic imo.

Chomp gets essentially removed from the game after that though I'll admit I've probably played strategically around pinch berry ranges to get a second life and that may not be a feasible option soon enough but it has stopped considerable attempts at Garchomp sweeps.

 

Quote

This part makes no sense. If you're trying to revenge kill Garchomp, that means Garchomp is already on the field. If Garchomp is already on the field, it won't be affected by hazards. Perhaps you meant that revenge killing is more easy after Garchomp gets chipped by hazards. Aside from stuff like Reuniclus that is immune to hazards, I don't believe Garchomp is particularly weak to hazards compared to other mons that have been uber in the past.

I meant the chip damage of those things forces it into range to get killed, I probably phrased that terribly but I was on like 2 hours of sleep while typing that post my bad. And yeah i meant the second bit. It's not particularly weak to them but it sure limits the effect a yache berry has on making it live an ice move.

 

Quote

Imo, you are completely mistaken when it comes to Cofagrigus. It's not used only for Conkeldurr, but also for Scizor a mon even more played than Conkeldurr itself. Cofagrigus would never drop to UU even if Conkeldurr vanished from OU. The only reason it was ever UU was because Mummy wasn't implemented. Furthermore, you said yourself that Cofagrigus is good against Garchomp, so it goes without saying that Cofagrigus really would never drop to UU is Conkeldurr wasn't around. 

 

So there are two options here:

1. Cofagrigus either sucks, can serve as a mediocre check to Garchomp and would never be OU if it wasn't for Conkeldurr

2. Cofagrigus is awesome and can counter/check the three most used pokemons in the tier (Garchomp, Scizor and Conkeldurr)

If you choose option 1, well Garchomp would then become in your eye an even bigger threat than before. If you choose option 2, Conkeldurr should never again be mentioned as a potential uber mon because its biggest counter is extremely solid and also has ton of utility in the tier. I realise we should be talking about Garchomp and not Conkeldurr, but since you brought up Conkeldurr and bringing up Conkeldurr seem to be a "go to digression" when discussing Garchomp, I felt it was important to close that parenthesis once and for all.

 

Anyhow, we will have more to discuss when it comes to Mandibuzz and Umbreon viability following the upcoming update. 

 

I find that very surprising since hazard stacking is probably significantly less viable than before because of the addition of Rotom. Good luck with your deadline.

I feel like the main reason to use Cofagrigus over other walls is to patch up a big fighting weakness or if your team hates losing one mon to Conk. Walls in may rise in usage if they can handle one specific mon but rarely if they only handle one specific mon (Milotic is a good example as it quickly rose to OU in order to handle the at the time devastating  Reuniclus), Mandi handles many other mons at the same time as it handles chomp.

 

And thank you, I reached my deadline in time and got some great reviews.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I don't need to know speed the Conk user is using since 252 speed Conkeldurr is hardly a thing. Hippowdon counters Conkeldurr to a very reasonable extent. Also, keep in mind that even if you run full speed Conkeldurr, you still do not have a guaranteed 2HKO and you still need to predict properly. Also, a Conkeldurr with no bulk that manages to go through a Rocky Helmet Hippo is probably on the verge of death. It's not ideal, but like I said it's good enough considering the unlikeliness of this scenario happening in our current meta. I have played a shit ton of Hippo Rocky Helmet to stop Conk and it's very solid from my experience.

How can your Hippo counter Conk to a very reasonable extent when it nearly gets 2hko'd by it?  Rocky Helmet Hippo also lacks recovery, which means it needs to be at 100% health + outspeed Conk which isn't guaranteed.  Even if Conk is on the verge of death after facing a Hippo, which isn't the case, it can then recover a shit ton of health back with drain punch.  I have played Hippo with RH too and I lost to ZAnderson most recently in an OU tour because his Conk outsped by Hippo.

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

That logic is completely flawed. Imo, yes, SD Yache set is the best set , but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the fact that there are other sets. If you only prepare for that set, then when you send your Cofagrigus or Bold Rotom against Garchomp, you need to be prepare to click that forfeit button if that Garchomp is holding a Lum Berry or hides behind a sub.

 

No it's not flawed.  If Garchomp is running a Lum Berry, it may take down a mon, but then you can kill it with something else with ice Beam.  I've not clicked the forfeit button vs Garchomp ever, so I must be doing something right.  If Garchomp hides behind a sub, I hope the Garchomp user is prepared to press X vs my Shed Shell Skarmory then.

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

No!

 

"Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch." 

This is not as threatening  and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do not give a shit about that set.

 

"Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants."

I hope you are kidding if you think this is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr. I have seen this before in action. It's complete gimmicky matchup fishing garbage.

 

There are issues with every Conkeldurr sets and these issues are considerably more numerous and important than the issues that face the Garchomp Yache set.

 

This is as threatening and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do give a shit about that set.

 

I hope you don't think that I am kidding because it is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr.  I have seen it before in action and it has done well for me.

 

There are issues with every Garchomp sets and these issues are considerably not more important than the issues that face Conkeldurr, Volcarona, and Togekiss.

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

No. This is entirely different. We are talking about checks here. The definition of a check is as follows:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

Fast check example:

For Conkeldurr

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spec Starmie if given a free switch will OHKO Conkeldurr.

Spec Starmie can OHKO Conkeldurr by taking hardly any dmg aside from Mach Punch Conkeldurr.

 

For Garchomp

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spec Starmie if given a free switch will break Garchomp Yache Berry, take a big hit from Garchomp and then kill Garchomp if Garchomp stays the next turn.

Spec Starmie will be able to take down Garchomp at the cost of getting hit an EQ that will leave Starmie with at most 25%, not to mention there is no guarantee Garchomp will actually stay to get killed after doing that 75% dmg EQ. 

 

 

Bulky check example:

For Conkeldurr

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Reuniclus if given a free switch will OHKO Conkeldurr.

Reuniclus will take a huge hit from Facade Conkeldurr (assuming flame orb is active) before killing Conk. This means that Reuniclus will be left off with at most 45% of its health.

 

For Garchomp

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Milotic if given a free switch will break Garchomp Yache Berry after Garchomp does SD and then will be able to finish off Garchomp after taking a hit from a +2 EQ.

Milotic will have to take a +2 EQ from Garchomp before finishing off Garchomp. This means Milotic will be left with at most with 29% of its total health.

 

 

Whether we are talking about faster checks or bulkier checks, in both cases, the Conkeldurr check is always better left off after doing it's job than the Garchomp check and there is less risk involved.

 

Let's say you do not have a free switch. What then happens to Garchomp and Conkeldurr checks?

 

Fast check example:

For Conkeldurr

  Reveal hidden contents

Spec Starmie can switch into Ice Punch, Drain Punch, Mach Punch and even Facade if Flame Orb is not active yet.

Prediction wise, this is not very hard.

For Garchomp

  Reveal hidden contents

Spec Starmie can switch into Fire Fang and that's it.

If Garchomp does anything, but Fire Fang it will be able to take down Starmie.

 

Bulky check example:

For Conkeldurr

  Reveal hidden contents

Reuniclus can switch into Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Ice Punch and even Facade if Flame Orb is not active yet.

Prediction wise, this is also not very hard.

For Garchomp

  Reveal hidden contents

Milotic can switch into Fire Fang. If it switches into Dragon Claw, it has a low chance of dying to SD + EQ in the next two turns. If it switches into EQ, it has a high chance of dying to SD + EQ in the next two turns. If it switches into SD, it just dies. There is nothing easy about the prediction here.

Once again, checking Conkeldurr is significantly easier to checking Garchomp.

 

 

So you choose to only prepare for Yache Berry Garchomp because all other sets of Garchomp are inferior. But Conkeldurr, you feel the need to prepare for the Flame Orb sets, the Bulk up Rock slide set, the bulk up ice punch set, the bulk up payback set, etc. I'm sorry but if this is how you perceive the OU meta, there is no point in continuing this discussion because clearly we do not have the same priorities at all. 

 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 342-404 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 0 Atk Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

Starmie cannot check careful set, but it can check Flame Orb Set.  Similarly, Specs Starmie may not be able to check Yache Berry Garchomp, but it can check other variants.

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 296-350 (82.9 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

----------------

 

Fast Checks examples for Garchomp:

Scarf Hydreigon
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 188-224 (102.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Mence
252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

Scarf Kingdra

252+ SpA Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 242-288 (132.2 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Shell Smash Cloyster

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 78 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (76.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

------------

 

Bulky Check Examples:

 

For Conk:

0 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 120 HP / 116 SpD Conkeldurr: 284-336 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 229-270 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Conk beats Reuni.  Therefore not a check.  The spread I used is from Smogon because there is no standard spread since apparently the norm is to keep speed creeping Hippos and this goes on back and forth.

 

Bulky Check Example For Garchomp:

+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (92.3 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

-------------

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

So you choose to only prepare for Yache Berry Garchomp because all other sets of Garchomp are inferior. But Conkeldurr, you feel the need to prepare for the Flame Orb sets, the Bulk up Rock slide set, the bulk up ice punch set, the bulk up payback set, etc. I'm sorry but if this is how you perceive the OU meta, there is no point in continuing this discussion because clearly we do not have the same priorities at all. 

Yes because I have lost to more Conks than Garchomps.

 

Edited by NikhilR

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1 - Is this hackmons? Cause I'm pretty sure 252 hp 252 spdef 252 speed 252 atk conkeldurr is only allowed there. (Not even then we can get 2 different natures at once)

2 -  How does conk beat hippowdon and yet garchomp is countered by p2?????

3 - What the fuck did I just read?

4 -  Why we comparing infernape SD to garchomp SD?

5 -  Why we comparing 102 base speed mon to 45 base speed mon?

6 - What the fuck did I just read?

7 -  Why conkeldurr having a 0,4% to 2hko hippowdon makes conk able to beat it, but a scarf mence with 25% chance to ohko garchomp is an issue for chomp? (A SCARF MENCE!)

8 -  I don't fucking care if conk is more annoying for you than chomp is @NikhilR. This game is about matchup and different people have different styles, leading to different issues. By the same logic, I can state I and other ppl have no issues against screens and therefore screens aren't banworthy. For god sake stop the bias, and start thinking ojectively.

9 - Obligatory what the fuck did I just read?

EDIT: and before some guy claims that you don't know what set conk is running, difference is that Garchomp only needs 1 and only 1 set/spread to accomplish everything conk can with 563. That's the big difference.

 

Edited by pachima

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7 hours ago, NikhilR said:

How can your Hippo counter Conk to a very reasonable extent when it nearly gets 2hko'd by it?  Rocky Helmet Hippo also lacks recovery, which means it needs to be at 100% health + outspeed Conk which isn't guaranteed.  Even if Conk is on the verge of death after facing a Hippo, which isn't the case, it can then recover a shit ton of health back with drain punch.  I have played Hippo with RH too and I lost to ZAnderson most recently in an OU tour because his Conk outsped by Hippo.

 

This is as threatening and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do give a shit about that set.

 

I hope you don't think that I am kidding because it is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr.  I have seen it before in action and it has done well for me.

 

There are issues with every Garchomp sets and these issues are considerably not more important than the issues that face Conkeldurr, Volcarona, and Togekiss.

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 342-404 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 0 Atk Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

Starmie cannot check careful set, but it can check Flame Orb Set.  Similarly, Specs Starmie may not be able to check Yache Berry Garchomp, but it can check other variants.

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 296-350 (82.9 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

----------------

 

Fast Checks examples for Garchomp:

Scarf Hydreigon
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 188-224 (102.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Mence
252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

Scarf Kingdra

252+ SpA Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 242-288 (132.2 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Shell Smash Cloyster

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 78 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (76.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

------------

 

Bulky Check Examples:

 

For Conk:

0 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 120 HP / 116 SpD Conkeldurr: 284-336 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 229-270 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Conk beats Reuni.  Therefore not a check.  The spread I used is from Smogon because there is no standard spread since apparently the norm is to keep speed creeping Hippos and this goes on back and forth.

 

Bulky Check Example For Garchomp:

+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (92.3 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Why are you giving me Cloyster and Hydreigon as checks to Garchomp when you are the one that wanted to talk about ICE BEAMER checks!!!!??? Mandibuzz is a counter, why are you mentioning it as if it was a check? It's not relevant at at all. Did I post calcs of Cofagrigus as a Conkeldurr Bulky check? Ofc not. There is no point in doing that...

Scarf Mence is not a thing. Scarf Kingdra is not a thing. And your Conkeldurr calcs are not a thing as well. 252 HP/252 Spdef/252 Speed Conkeldurr. 

 

7 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Yes because I have lost to more Conks than Garchomps.

Because you are running Scarf Garchomp as you ultime solution to everything including an opponent's Garchomp!!

 

7 hours ago, NikhilR said:

No it's not flawed.  If Garchomp is running a Lum Berry, it may take down a mon, but then you can kill it with something else with ice Beam.  I've not clicked the forfeit button vs Garchomp ever, so I must be doing something right.  If Garchomp hides behind a sub, I hope the Garchomp user is prepared to press X vs my Shed Shell Skarmory then.

The only pokemon that can "kill it with something else with Ice Beam" is called Starmie!!! Which is why I chose Starmie as an example!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What's really been bothering me is what are you doing on the turn Garchomp uses Swords Dance? Sounds like its just been brought in after a mon has died and has kill pressure or your volt switch failed as it switched in. If that is not the case how is it setting up so freely? Worst case scenario you hit it with what you have currently then sacrifice something that does nothing in that duel. 

 

Another point to mention, Garchomp does suffer slightly from 4mss. Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Fire move, Rocks, Stone Edge and Substitute are all viable options. If you know it does not have a fire move then Skarmory easily beats it, Garchomp needs to be dealt with a case by case basis.

 

Aight lemme just list off some mons that check/counter/chip chomp:

  • Cloyster, scarf or bulky (unless chain chomp dracos it)
  • Rotom, bulky willo or scarf trick can cripple
  • Weavile, OHKO through Yache
  • Mandibuzz, walls variants without Stone Edge
  • Porygon2, Bold reflect beats every variant of Garchomp
  • Bronzong, can tank any fire move especially if you run Occa berry
  • Skarmory, walls any varient without fire moves and can retaliate with Whirlwind and Counter
  • Ferrothorn, shakey at best but can tank +2 Earthquake
  • Slowbro, tanks any move and can burn or low chance to OHKO non Yache variants with Ice Beam
  • Tangrowth, may struggle with Fire Blast variants but solid otherwise
  • Umbreon, a worse Mandibuzz
  • Mamoswine, Ice Shard does a lot of damage
  • Gliscor, Rocky Helmet + Toxic/Ice Fang dents it
  • Hippowdon, Whirlwind phazes it out and Earthquake/Ice Fang do decent damage, curse also has a good match up
  • Gyarados, intimidate helps out and only has to worry about Stone Edge
  • Cofagrigus, willo + sball can break subs and burn

 

Here is a list of other things that can reliably revenge kill Garchomp:

  • Scizor
  • Starmie
  • Gengar
  • Infernape
  • Scarfers

Obviously this list is not limited to these Pokemon, e.g. a Lucario can achieve the same thing if Garchomp is low enough.

 

There's probably some other things that can deal with it but these came to mind first.

Edited by xXBlu3BreathXx

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54 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

What's really been bothering me is what are you doing on the turn Garchomp uses Swords Dance? Sounds like its just been brought in after a mon has died and has kill pressure or your volt switch failed as it switched in. If that is not the case how is it setting up so freely? Worst case scenario you hit it with what you have currently then sacrifice something that does nothing in that duel.  - With that 102 base speed and power, I don't think this is an issue, you can force out a lot of stuff.

 

Another point to mention, Garchomp does suffer slightly from 4mss. Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Fire move, Rocks, Stone Edge and Substitute are all viable options. If you know it does not have a fire move then Skarmory easily beats it, Garchomp needs to be dealt with a case by case basis. - Fair enough, just want to point that stone seems meh cuz it only serves the purpose of hitting mandi, and rocks is irrelevant when the argument lies on uber offense material. Therefore the only 4mss it can suffer in the "best" set is substitute.

 

Aight lemme just list off some mons that check/counter/chip chomp:

  • Cloyster, scarf or bulky (unless chain chomp dracos it) True for scarf.
  • Rotom, bulky willo or scarf trick can cripple There is too much risk of a sub, or any other chomp set, at which point you can forfeit.
  • Weavile, OHKO through Yache True.
  • Mandibuzz, walls variants without Stone Edge True.
  • Porygon2, Bold reflect beats every variant of Garchomp True, although too gimmick.
  • Bronzong, can tank any fire move especially if you run Occa berry This is the one I like the less. Bronzong can eat the first move, but is unable to pressure garchomp that hard before it eats subsequent ones.
  • Skarmory, walls any varient without fire moves and can retaliate with Whirlwind and Counter True.
  • Ferrothorn, shakey at best but can tank +2 Earthquake Same issue with Bronzong.
  • Slowbro, tanks any move and can burn or low chance to OHKO non Yache variants with Ice Beam Albeit true, relying on 30% burn is desperation. But still solid mention.
  • Tangrowth, may struggle with Fire Blast variants but solid otherwise Irrelevant in our meta, and not used.
  • Umbreon, a worse Mandibuzz True.
  • Mamoswine, Ice Shard does a lot of damage Not really, however, I've read icicle spear mamo and that could work in this point, if scarf.
  • Gliscor, Rocky Helmet + Toxic/Ice Fang dents it Nah. It is a 50/50 with roost and eventual ice fang and a second SD from chomp.
  • Hippowdon, Whirlwind phazes it out and Earthquake/Ice Fang do decent damage, curse also has a good match up Yes for the ww set. No for ice fang sets, and curse seems too gimmick.
  • Gyarados, intimidate helps out and only has to worry about Stone Edge Nah, cannot switch at a +2 chomp or a chomp that SDs. Cannot switch or effectively check any mixed chomp. It can only barely check a non boosted sd garchomp that does not possess stone, and only if rocks aren't on field. (Unless defensive gyarados, which seems kinda bad in our meta)
  • Cofagrigus, willo + sball can break subs and burn Meh, 50/50 that pressures cofa much more than it pressures chomp. (And only after you know its set)

 

Here is a list of other things that can reliably revenge kill Garchomp:

  • Scizor Nah. needs way too much chip, at which point the argument becomes irrelevant.
  • Starmie True.
  • Gengar True 
  • Infernape True
  • Scarfers Not really. Even banded versions have problems revenge killing chomp due to its bulk. And our OU doesn't possess other ice mons other than the ones you mentioned above. The rest of ice mons are irrelevant. 

Obviously this list is not limited to these Pokemon, e.g. a Lucario can achieve the same thing if Garchomp is low enough.

 

There's probably some other things that can deal with it but these came to mind first.

NOTE: Most of the following pokes can only check/counter/whatever (apart of mandibuzz and umbreon cause stone edge is meh), specific sets of Garchomp. However, this dragon won't allow anyone to safely scout for the set it possesses without killing something in the process, and this is an issue.

This is just my opinion. Either way, the decision should lie on whether these tools you provided (regardless of the flaws they possess) are enough to keep Garchomp in tier unnerfed. In my opinion, they are not. But any counterargument should get their basis in this part, rather than roaming around with meaningless posts and calcs and bias and whatnot.

Thanks for the good objective post. Let me just add what I think to be more accurate.

Either way, this is a good starting point to correctly discuss this mon. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:
  • Cloyster, scarf or bulky (unless chain chomp dracos it)

This is true.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Rotom, bulky willo or scarf trick can cripple

Bulky Wil-O-Wisp Rotom still lose the 1v1 and so does the trick variant. A destiny bond user would be more effective because at least Garchomp would be dead. A +2 burned Garchomp is just a regular Garchomp at nearly full health in a 6v5 duel. A Scarf Garchomp is not even a bad thing, especially in a 6v5 duel.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Weavile, OHKO through Yache

Weavile is not super viable in OU right now and usage shows this.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Mandibuzz, walls variants without Stone Edge

This is true.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Porygon2, Bold reflect beats every variant of Garchomp

I tried this. I does beat Garchomp. However, that set is just not good. P2 is not even OU by usage and crippling P2 with Reflect doesn't help its case at all.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Bronzong, can tank any fire move especially if you run Occa berry

Once again, this is a pokemon with low viability in OU. It can be quite useful still, but the drawbacks are pretty big and that's why it got no usage in our meta.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Skarmory, walls any varient without fire moves and can retaliate with Whirlwind and Counter

I'm talking exclusively about a variant that includes a fire move, so Skarmory simply doesn't work.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Ferrothorn, shakey at best but can tank +2 Earthquake

Like I said, the variant we are talking about includes a fire move, so Ferrothorn doesn't work. Even if there was no fire move, Ferrothorn would still lose.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Slowbro, tanks any move and can burn or low chance to OHKO non Yache variants with Ice Beam

I can understand the use of P2, Weavile and Bronzong to some extent. But Slowbro, just no. This is not viable at all and even it still loses to the Yache Berry variant I am talking about.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Tangrowth, may struggle with Fire Blast variants but solid otherwise

Tangrowth is hardly viable in OU, especially without recovery options.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Umbreon, a worse Mandibuzz

Umbreon works.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Mamoswine, Ice Shard does a lot of damage

Mamoswine is also not OU by usage. It struggled too much in the tier against Scizor and Conkeldurr. Now it also has to deal with Rotom, so Mamoswine is not super viable as well.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Gliscor, Rocky Helmet + Toxic/Ice Fang dents it

Ya. Gliscor Rocky Helmet dents it. It doesn't beat it. It dents it.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Hippowdon, Whirlwind phazes it out and Earthquake/Ice Fang do decent damage, curse also has a good match up

Hippowdown also will lose that match up. It can try to phase it out at the cost of its own health, but that's it. I think Hippowdon curse could work, but I have not seen one yet, just like I have not seen a Tangrowth or Slowbro yet.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Gyarados, intimidate helps out and only has to worry about Stone Edge

You don't need Stone Edge. Gyarados only wins against Garchomp if it intimidates Garchomp in a 1v1. Realistically, for this to happen, Gyarados needs to switch into Garchomp or revenge kill it. This means Garchomp could already be at +2. If Gyarados is already on the field and didn't DD yet, Garchomp can choose to revenge kill it. That's what's so ridiculous. If Gyarados is good agaisnt Garchomp, Garchomp should not be able to revenge kill it and yet it can.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Cofagrigus, willo + sball can break subs and burn

Cofagrigus works against the variant I am talking about.

 

So to summarize, the only OU viable mons that can come on top against the Yache SD set are Mandibuzz, Umbreon and Cofagrigus. The rest is either not viable in OU or just mediocre at handling Garchomp. So 4MSS is not really a thing with the variant I mentioned when Garchomp literally destroy everything except for the 3 mons listed above. And 2 of those 3 mons, will stop Garchomp no matter the set. So 4MSS really only applies to the match up against Cofagrigus. And at this point, with all the complains about Conkeldurr, I am extremely surprised people are just okay with adding Garchomp to the list of things Cofagrigus needs to handle, as if it didn't have enough on its plate already. I am trying to get Garchomp banned as Uber Offensive, but this just stinks unhealthiness as well.

 

 

About the revenge killers you listed:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 88-105 (48 - 57.3%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

That is a lot of chip damage required for Scizor to revenge kill.

 

Starmie is probably the best revenge killer. Depending on the item it is holding, it will need more or less chip dmg. Iirc, Spec Starmie needs at least 20% chip dmg in order to guarantee the KO. This is feasible, but there is a lot of downfall is being locked too.

 

Gengar is not really in a great spot against Garchomp since it doesn't hurt Garchomp that hard: 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 101-121 (55.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 45% chip dmg is required to guarantee the KO here. 

 

Infernape is pretty similar to Starmie. Depending on the item it is holding, it will need more or less chip dmg. Against Choice Band Ape Close Combat, 25% prior chip dmg needs to be inflicted to Chomp to guarantee the KO. Very feasible again, but there is the issue of being locked and the issue of Garchomp being capable of OHKO Infernape without even having go to +2.

 

Scarfers. Well in our meta, there aren't that many scarfers that good good against Garchomp. We have Hydreigon and Cloyster. That's pretty much it. Salamence scarf is not a thing in our meta. Scarf Darmanitan can't do much. Scarf Magnezone is ridiculous against Garchomp, 3HKO with Flash Cannon. Togekiss Scarf is okay thanks to the flinch chance, but that just stinks desperation. Kingdra under Rain needs to be mentioned because one of the most potent revenge killers.

 

However, the amount of things that can truly "handle" Garchomp pales in comparison to what Garchomp is capable of destroying.

 

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

What's really been bothering me is what are you doing on the turn Garchomp uses Swords Dance? Sounds like its just been brought in after a mon has died and has kill pressure or your volt switch failed as it switched in. If that is not the case how is it setting up so freely? Worst case scenario you hit it with what you have currently then sacrifice something that
does nothing in that duel. 

It's not really setting up for free. When you look at the revenge killers you listed, some of them need prior chip dmg in order to get the ko. In our current meta, a lot of mons do not deal enough chip dmg on the SD turn. Garchomp typing is also a huge asset because it allows it to punish volt switch users so heavily. 1 volt switch as a scarf Rotom or Magnezone can mean your end instantly. 1 rock move locked TTar is just as bad. People complained about how Dugtrio was taking out Electric and Rock types for Togekiss to sweep, but Garchomp is far worse than Dugtrio. It doesn't need to trap Electric or Rock types, it punishes them so hard you will be in constant fear of using these moves, this is far worse than getting trapped by Dugtrio. That also speaks to the unhealthy nature of Garchomp.

 

Chip dmg also applies to everything, not only Garchomp. And if you include chip dmg as a factor against everything that Garchomp face, Garchomp can get kills without even needing to use SD. This means the fear factor against Garchomp can be quite huge. As a 80% Blissey, what do you do against Garchomp? If Garchomp does SD and you do Ice Beam (if you even have Ice Beam), then you didn't deal enough chip dmg for Gengar or Scizor to revenge kill. A not Banded Infernape will also not be able to KO chomp. So you basically lose 2 pokemons and Garchomp will still be alive, heavily chipped but still alive. That's a huge problem. Chip dmg goes both ways, not just Garchomp way. As Tentacruel vs Garchomp, what do you do? Chip it a little or switch out hoping in does EQ on your Skarmory. Because if you decide to switch out and Garchomp does SD, that Skarmory is in a tough spot. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by gbwead

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5 hours ago, pachima said:

1 - Is this hackmons? Cause I'm pretty sure 252 hp 252 spdef 252 speed 252 atk conkeldurr is only allowed there. (Not even then we can get 2 different natures at once)

2 -  How does conk beat hippowdon and yet garchomp is countered by p2?????

3 - What the fuck did I just read?

4 -  Why we comparing infernape SD to garchomp SD?

5 -  Why we comparing 102 base speed mon to 45 base speed mon?

6 - What the fuck did I just read?

7 -  Why conkeldurr having a 0,4% to 2hko hippowdon makes conk able to beat it, but a scarf mence with 25% chance to ohko garchomp is an issue for chomp? (A SCARF MENCE!)

8 -  I don't fucking care if conk is more annoying for you than chomp is @NikhilR. This game is about matchup and different people have different styles, leading to different issues. By the same logic, I can state I and other ppl have no issues against screens and therefore screens aren't banworthy. For god sake stop the bias, and start thinking ojectively.

9 - Obligatory what the fuck did I just read?

EDIT: and before some guy claims that you don't know what set conk is running, difference is that Garchomp only needs 1 and only 1 set/spread to accomplish everything conk can with 563. That's the big difference.

 

Dude shut the fuck up and don't tag me or quote me because I don't want to be tagged with your nonsense.  All you do is talk bs but when it comes to practice you disappear like Nileseyy Niles.  

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Why are you giving me Cloyster and Hydreigon as checks to Garchomp when you are the one that wanted to talk about ICE BEAMER checks!!!!??? Mandibuzz is a counter, why are you mentioning it as if it was a check? It's not relevant at at all. Did I post calcs of Cofagrigus as a Conkeldurr Bulky check? Ofc not. There is no point in doing that...

Scarf Mence is not a thing. Scarf Kingdra is not a thing. And your Conkeldurr calcs are not a thing as well. 252 HP/252 Spdef/252 Speed Conkeldurr. 

I didn't want to specifically speak about Ice Beamer checks, no; that's my mistake if I led you on that way.  I'm just giving you an example of how there are multiple checks to Garchomp, which need not be ice beamers.  You can run Cloyster, Hydreigon, Scarf Mence, and Scarf Kingdra for that purpose.  Scarf Kingdra is excellent to be able to counter rain matchups, so I don't know why it's bad.  It's a great revenge killer, and has great surprise value, so I don't know why it wouldn't be bad.  Yes I made a mistake with mentioning Mandi as a check and not a counter.  You can make Scarf Mence / Kingdra a thing, but you just don't want to adapt or get used to running scarfers.  I don't know what's wrong with Scarf Mence either.  Just because "it's not a thing" doesn't mean that it can't be one.  It's an OU mon for fuck's sake.  You know Spdef Dnite was not a thing, yet I had to adapt to try to make it one to counter Togekiss.  Timid Milotic was never a thing, yet I had to to adapt to make it a thing for Togekiss.  So adapt.

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Because you are running Scarf Garchomp as you ultime solution to everything including an opponent's Garchomp!!

 

It's because all I have to do is literally run one mon (Garchomp) to revenge kill opposing mons.  If I don't run a Cofagrigus for Conkeldurr, I could get fucked depending on its set.  The reason I run Scarf Chomp is because it's an excellent revenge killer for almost everything,

 

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

The only pokemon that can "kill it with something else with Ice Beam" is called Starmie!!! Which is why I chose Starmie as an example!! 

One"fast check" that can kill Lum Berry Garchomp with Ice Beam may be Starmie.  Another "fast check" can be Scarf Kingdra as well with Ice Beam.  You can run HP Ice on Mag as well (does not ohko but weakens it plenty).  As far as bulky checks go, p2 kills with ice Beam.  

 

Why are you making it sound like Starmie is the only mon that can kill it with Ice Beam?

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2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Dude shut the fuck up and don't tag me or quote me because I don't want to be tagged with your nonsense.  All you do is talk bs but when it comes to practice you disappear like Nileseyy Niles.  

Correct.

In practice I only reached top 100 ladder with a better winrate than you have one week ago. In practice I do many more OU battles than you do, and in practice I was 3-0 on TT matches in LYLE this year.  Therefore, in practice, like you said, I disappear like Nileseyy Niles obviously. TLDR; I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but next time be sure to pick a reason other than the one you seem to have dug up from your head out of nowhere. Feel free to believe in what you want. You give me your claims, I give you hard facts, now do whatever you want with those.

On another note, I still respect you enough to start providing objectively claims towards why garchomp isn't broken, like Blue did. 

 

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2 minutes ago, pachima said:

Correct.

 

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In practice I only reached top 100 ladder with a better winrate than you have one week ago. In practice I do many more OU battles than you do, and in practice I was 3-0 on TT matches in LYLE this year.  Therefore, in practice, like you said, I disappear like Nileseyy Niles obviously. TLDR; I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but next time be sure to pick a reason other than the one you seem to have dug up from your head out of nowhere. Feel free to believe in what you want. You give me your claims, I give you hard facts, now do whatever you want with those.

 

On another note, I still respect you enough to start providing objectively claims towards why garchomp isn't broken, like Blue did. 

 

I don't care about your win rate because I don't know how you've managed to accomplish said win rate.  You told me stuff like Zangoose or whatever can beat screens teams so the evidence I am looking for would be to see you win against screens team with said mons.  But you won't do that, you won't let me try to prove you wrong when I asked you build me 2-3 teams that can reliably do that.  If you can't do that, then how am I supposed to take your claim seriously? Just theorize everything?

 

You do more OU battles than me, yes, but what's the point?  I don't play unranked often because I don't care about beating charizardlover6969.  If you include those games in your "I play more OU battles than you" statement, then it doesn't hold much weight.  I play ranked / tours because I want to face the better part of the competition.  You may have played ranked, but I don't think that's enough.  If your hard facts are simply but theories then I want to have nothing to do with them.

 

On another note, I don't respect you at all, but I am willing to change how I feel that way if you provide me with teams to beat Screens Teams like Umbra did. 

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27 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I don't care about your win rate because I don't know how you've managed to accomplish said win rate.  You told me stuff like Zangoose or whatever can beat screens teams so the evidence I am looking for would be to see you win against screens team with said mons.  But you won't do that, you won't let me try to prove you wrong when I asked you build me 2-3 teams that can reliably do that.  If you can't do that, then how am I supposed to take your claim seriously? Just theorize everything?

 

You do more OU battles than me, yes, but what's the point?  I don't play unranked often because I don't care about beating charizardlover6969.  If you include those games in your "I play more OU battles than you" statement, then it doesn't hold much weight.  I play ranked / tours because I want to face the better part of the competition.  You may have played ranked, but I don't think that's enough.  If your hard facts are simply but theories then I want to have nothing to do with them.

 

On another note, I don't respect you at all, but I am willing to change how I feel that way if you provide me with teams to beat Screens Teams like Umbra did. 

Hey that's my alt!

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1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Dude shut the fuck up and don't tag me or quote me because I don't want to be tagged with your nonsense.  All you do is talk bs but when it comes to practice you disappear like Nileseyy Niles.  

 

I didn't want to specifically speak about Ice Beamer checks, no; that's my mistake if I led you on that way.  I'm just giving you an example of how there are multiple checks to Garchomp, which need not be ice beamers.  You can run Cloyster, Hydreigon, Scarf Mence, and Scarf Kingdra for that purpose.  Scarf Kingdra is excellent to be able to counter rain matchups, so I don't know why it's bad.  It's a great revenge killer, and has great surprise value, so I don't know why it wouldn't be bad.  Yes I made a mistake with mentioning Mandi as a check and not a counter.  You can make Scarf Mence / Kingdra a thing, but you just don't want to adapt or get used to running scarfers.  I don't know what's wrong with Scarf Mence either.  Just because "it's not a thing" doesn't mean that it can't be one.  It's an OU mon for fuck's sake.  You know Spdef Dnite was not a thing, yet I had to adapt to try to make it one to counter Togekiss.  Timid Milotic was never a thing, yet I had to to adapt to make it a thing for Togekiss.  So adapt.

 

It's because all I have to do is literally run one mon (Garchomp) to revenge kill opposing mons.  If I don't run a Cofagrigus for Conkeldurr, I could get fucked depending on its set.  The reason I run Scarf Chomp is because it's an excellent revenge killer for almost everything,

 

One"fast check" that can kill Lum Berry Garchomp with Ice Beam may be Starmie.  Another "fast check" can be Scarf Kingdra as well with Ice Beam.  You can run HP Ice on Mag as well (does not ohko but weakens it plenty).  As far as bulky checks go, p2 kills with ice Beam.  

 

Why are you making it sound like Starmie is the only mon that can kill it with Ice Beam?

It's been 6 months already and I have seen/played enough OU to determine that Scarf Mence and Scarf Kingdra is indeed garbage. Playing these mons in our current meta will always be more of detriment than anything else and if Garchomp forces you to play this garbage, it needs to be banned asap. We are way over the adaptation time, it's time to face the facts and Garchomp needs to be banned.

 

Starmie is the only Ice Beam revenge killer. Kingdra scarf is not a thing. Even if it was a thing, it still wouldn't be an Ice Beam revenge killer because Kingdra can use Draco Meteor!!! 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It's been 6 months already and I have seen/played enough OU to determine that Scarf Mence and Scarf Kingdra is indeed garbage. Playing these mons in our current meta will always be more of detriment than anything else and if Garchomp forces you to play this garbage, it needs to be banned asap. We are way over the adaptation time, it's time to face the facts and Garchomp needs to be banned.

 

Starmie is the only Ice Beam revenge killer. Kingdra scarf is not a thing. Even if it was a thing, it still wouldn't be an Ice Beam revenge killer because Kingdra can use Draco Meteor!!! 

It's been 2 years of Unova already and I have seen/played enough OU to determine that Scarf Mence and Scarf Kingdra have a lot of utility.  Garchomp does not force me to use these mons because I can run Scarf Kingdra as a countermeasure to rain teams and Scarf Mence can revenge kill most other mons.  Garchomp does not need to be banned asap, and it's time to face the facts that Garchomp does not need to be banned.

 

Kingdra can Draco Meteor Garchomp, but Draco Meteor can miss, and Ice Beam is a way to get that guaranteed kill against non-yache Chomp.  So therefore Kingdra is an ice Beam revenge killer. 

 

EDIT:

 

Scarf Cloyster and Scarf Mamo are also great revenge killers.  Icicle Spear is a great move to try and kill stuff that are behind a sub. 

Edited by NikhilR

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I'm gonna laugh at you all when update comes out and suddenly the entire discussion will turn out to be pointless

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2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Kingdra can Draco Meteor Garchomp, but Draco Meteor can miss, and Ice Beam is a way to get that guaranteed kill against non-yache Chomp.  So therefore Kingdra is an ice Beam revenge killer.  P2 is an Ice Beam revenge killer. 

We are talking about ice beam revenge killers because you brought it up!! So against Yache Berry Garchomp, what's wrong with using a bulky ice beam user and then revenge killing with another ice beam user? In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how KINGDRA is an Ice Beam revenge killer when it doesn't need Ice Beam to revenge kill!! In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how P2 Ice Beam is a valid revenge killer? Which bulky pokemon breaks the Yache Berry of Garchomp then? Milotic. So if you are running P2 + Milotic as physical walls and Garchomp kills the first one and then the second one gets hit by a +2 EQ, it should be more than obvious that Garchomp is broken af!!!! That means Milotic is dead and that p2 a slow mon is below 50%! In what universe can you see this as acceptable? It just isn't.

 

Scarf Salamence and Scarf Kingdra are utter garbage. We both know you never played such garbage in the past and probably never will because you know damn well it's only used in trashy counter team with little general use. You're just saying these things are playable as a counter argument, but even the Tangrowth mentioned by Bluebreath is more viable than these two shit mons. We will never find common ground if when I bring up Starmie as a Conkeldurr check, suddenly Conkeldurr transforms into a 0.0001% usage Careful set bulk up with Tpunch/Payback or when we talk Garchomp checks, suddenly Scarf Kingdra becomes a casual check that everybody knows and run. 

 

I have deliberately decided to only talk about ONE of the many available sets of Garchomp in order to get the discussion going and not go in 10 different directions at once. All you do is the exact opposite in an attempt to confuse people with your deluded vision of OU where Safeguard Volcarona, Conkeldurr Careful and Scarf Kingdra are everywhere.

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

We are talking about ice beam revenge killers because you brought it up!!

Can you point to me where I brought it up exactly?

 

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

So against Yache Berry Garchomp, what's wrong with using a bulky ice beam user and then revenge killing with another ice beam user? In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how KINGDRA is an Ice Beam revenge killer when it doesn't need Ice Beam to revenge kill!! In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how P2 Ice Beam is a valid revenge killer? Which bulky pokemon breaks the Yache Berry of Garchomp then?

There's nothing wrong with using an initial Ice Beam user to break the Yache, and then rk'ing with Ice Beam.  You can even go down a different path by using Dragon-stab revenge killers.  Milotic + P2 + Blissey + Hippo can break the Yache Berry of Garchomp since they don't die to +2 EQ.  The entire point of this is that you have MULTIPLE checks to Garchomp.  If Garchomp is running Lum, Ice Beam P2 or Ice Beam Starmie can check it.  If Garchomp is running Yache, then Cloyster and Scarf Mamo can check it.  All non-sub or scarf variants of Garchomp are checked by Scarf Kingdra / Scarf Salamence.  P2 isn't a revenge killer since it's slower; I misworded that and edited my post before you quoted it, that's my fault. 

 

7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Scarf Salamence and Scarf Kingdra are utter garbage. We both know you never played such garbage in the past and probably never will because you know damn well it's only used in trashy counter team with little general use. You're just saying these things are playable as a counter argument, but even the Tangrowth mentioned by Bluebreath is more viable than these two shit mons. We will never find common ground if when I bring up Starmie as a Conkeldurr check, suddenly Conkeldurr transforms into a 0.0001% usage Careful set bulk up with Tpunch/Payback or when we talk Garchomp checks, suddenly Scarf Kingdra becomes a casual check that everybody knows and run. 

I have played it in the past.  I use Scarf Kingdra if I'm weak to rain otherwise, and I used Scarf Mence prior to Garchomp as a revenge killer for DD Gyara / QD Volca.

 

Scarf Hydreigon checks Garchomp.  Do you admit that?  

So let's compile a list of mons that can work:

Yache Berry Garchomp Checks:
1) Scarf Kingdra
2) Scarf Mence
3) Scarf Hydreigon
4) Scarf Mamo
5) Cloyster


SD Lum Garchomp Checks:

1) Scarf Kingdra
2) Scarf Mence
3) Scarf Hydreigon
4) Scarf Mamo
5) Cloyster
6) Starmie

7) HP Ice Scarf Mag
8) HP Ice Gengar

Garchomp Counters:
1) Foul Play Mandibuzz
2) Foul Play Umbreon

You don't necessarily need a fixed check / counter for it either.  You can play around it with trick + getting rocky helmet damage on it too.

 

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I have deliberately decided to only talk about ONE of the many available sets of Garchomp in order to get the discussion going and not go in 10 different directions at once. All you do is the exact opposite in an attempt to confuse people with your deluded vision of OU where Safeguard Volcarona, Conkeldurr Careful and Scarf Kingdra are everywhere.

Safeguard Volca / Conk Careful / Scarf Kingdra are not everywhere, but they have utility, and because they have utility, you shouldn't just completely ignore it when teambuilding.

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