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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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14 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- Hitmonlee has 110 base spdef. A good speedtier, and good matchup vs most mons used in that team. (Also speaking of no defensive utility, I fail to see a good defensive core in the "broken team. Abuse that"

2- Whimsi has psychic. It can switcheroo some macho brace. it can tailwind for a sweeper to come in and be faster than veno. Come on.  (Oh, it can also screens, what about that?)

3- Ok

4- Those are how predictions usually work

5- Kangaskhan? Ambipom? 

6- Mental herb is a thing. If not mental then it has a sash on its belt which gives it enough time to severely cripple any sweeper that might come in. But then I agree with this point.

One last note: Set up team is forced to set up to win. There is no plan B, no plan C, no safe option. They are forced to set up to win. Even if you can do it once, you are deying a lot of what that team provides. 

You can argue that its "skilless team, and that is not fully competitive, and I might agree with that. But a broken team shouldn't, imo, possess this many flaws, to be considered broken. If people are using teams that are swept by it, it's their problem.

 

EDIT: to add on this, none of the above were what I originally considered "set up team counters. I legit took 30 minutes to do research and find further options than the ones I currently have under my belt (And there are quite a lot, and more effective than these), and that for obvious reasons, wont be here revealing them. I'm pretty sure there will be more exploits if people actually start finding for them, instead of waiting a team to fall from the heavens.

Do you by any chance not want them to wear shedinja too, because it stops azumarill and venomoth? hah
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1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

1) Hitmonlee has a base HP of 50 and base physical defense of 53.  It's hardly going to ever come into a physical attack.  It may be good vs screens teams, but it's probably bad vs other kind of playstyles.  What's the hitmonlee usage even in NU?  Or are you going to tell me that people are dumb or are sleeping on it?

2) Please explain how whimsicott safely psychics the veno.  It will probably take a bug buzz before that depending on the speed.  Macho brace reduces its speed by half, and that same mon is perfectly capable of boosting its speed again.  Tailwind for a sweeper doesn't work properly either because you'll have to make sure that said sweeper is able to then ohko Scrafty or Veno under reflect.  

4) What's Kangaskhan / Ambipom usage in UU?  Both of them use Fake Out, and then what? 

5) Yeah you know what else is a thing? Red Card, but these are not items you fix on a standard team but as a counter measure to a specific kind of team or strategy.

 

Yeah a set up team is forced to set up to win, but if you can't deny it setting up then what's the point?  A baton pass team also requires set-up to win and passing stat boosts is banned.

1) People slept on wobbuffet for months (WAS NU), and I mean for months, before people with a brain decided to use it in (OU, note OU), to a point where it got banned. Ludicolo was the same. If you take your research, you will realize stuff like this keeps happening, so usage in this game, imo, means jack. THE VERY SET UP TEAM ITSELF, linoone and trode were NU for like a year(actually maybe more), and yet nothing relevant changed, except the part that metagross is actually good against them and was dropped. Want me to keep going? TLDR; Usage = meaningless.

2) I meant a OR condition, not and. Obvsly whimsi either psy or has switcheroo with macho. My bad if I sounded wrong.

4) After 1), if you still insist that usage in this game means anything, then our conversation ends here. We aren't talking about 1 month or two, we are talking about a year (for the set up team), and almost half a year (for the wobbuffet).  

Let me add on examples. Lanturn was NU for so long before got in UU. Nothing relevant changed again, and this was way before rotoms dreamt of appearing in MMO. Now, and even before rotoms appeared in MMO, ppl spamed it. Why? I ask, cuz they saw others doing the same. It was NU for a long time as well.

I will also let you take ur research on druddigon, and see the curve it had with time, to take ur own conclusions. 

Gigalith and gligar took a lot to drop to NU. Gligar does the same job, but people simply stopped using it. Nothing changed, yet gligar was top UU used mon for ages. Gigalith raised cuz of p-z, and yet stayed in UU for so long, gradually dropping the less people used it. MMO has a terrible delay when stabilizing tiers.

I gave you plenty of examples that prove my point. If you are to disprove them all at once with logical arguments, I will shut up.

Finally, baton pass ban has literally nothing to do with pvp. it was banned cuz of E4.

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1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Mamo switches into Electrode, the Electrode user then goes to Rotom, and then they can Volt Switch / Overheat / Double Switch?  That doesn't really sound foolproof to me.

So you place your rocks for free, stalled a few turns of screens, kept your sash, I mean this is a dream come true. Azumarill should not be able to sweep you if you have a generic water resistance.

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1 hour ago, pachima said:
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 115-136 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dead by rocks and sitrus recovery 
 
Leafeon can use reflect and survive any non ice punch azumarill (Unless azumarill runs 452 moves)
 
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 130-154 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Poof dead
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 109-130 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Neither of these is a viable solution. Leaf Storm may simply fail and flush all of his "Strategy". Also, none of that pokes is really useful in the tier, by using any of them just to try to deal with Azumarill +6 (With dubious results) the only thing you manage to do is occupy the space of some other pokemon that might really be useful to you , but hey, let's suppose that you configure any of these pokemon and that you achieve your objective of weakening the Azumarill, in the end, the only thing that you achieved, is to give free entry to Linoone, Venomoth or Scrafty to be able to increase their statistics for free.

These are just far-fetched solutions, which all he can do is further reinforce the fact that the team is problematic and that some solution must be found.

PS: Sorry if you don't understand very well, I don't speak English.

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9 minutes ago, pachima said:

1) People slept on wobbuffet for months (WAS NU), and I mean for months, before people with a brain decided to use it in (OU, note OU), to a point where it got banned. Ludicolo was the same. If you take your research, you will realize stuff like this keeps happening, so usage in this game, imo, means jack. THE VERY SET UP TEAM ITSELF, linoone and trode were NU for like a year(actually maybe more), and yet nothing relevant changed, except the part that metagross is actually good against them and was dropped. Want me to keep going? TLDR; Usage = meaningless.

2) I meant a OR condition, not and. Obvsly whimsi either psy or has switcheroo with macho. My bad if I sounded wrong.

4) After 1), if you still insist that usage in this game means anything, then our conversation ends here. We aren't talking about 1 month or two, we are talking about a year (for the set up team), and almost half a year (for the wobbuffet).  

Let me add on examples. Lanturn was NU for so long before got in UU. Nothing relevant changed again, and this was way before rotoms dreamt of appearing in MMO. Now, and even before rotoms appeared in MMO, ppl spamed it. Why? I ask, cuz they saw others doing the same. It was NU for a long time as well.

I will also let you take ur research on druddigon, and see the curve it had with time, to take ur own conclusions. 

Gigalith and gligar took a lot to drop to NU. Gligar does the same job, but people simply stopped using it. Nothing changed, yet gligar was top UU used mon for ages. Gigalith raised cuz of p-z, and yet stayed in UU for so long, gradually dropping the less people used it. MMO has a terrible delay when stabilizing tiers.

I gave you plenty of examples that prove my point. If you are to disprove them all at once with logical arguments, I will shut up.

Finally, baton pass ban has literally nothing to do with pvp. it was banned cuz of E4.

There could be many reasons why Wobbuffet's usage was NU.  Personally speaking, I don't use Wobbuffet because I don't constantly rely on such strategies to win.  Wobbuffet was always a problem for me and I did voice for it to get banned.  I've also been told that lack of Tickle contributed to Wobba not being OU for a while. 

 

Saying usage is meaningless is stupid because you make it sound like as if the strategies to beat screens is so obvious, and if it really was so obvious, then why is it not being used?  Lanturn probably became UU because of a rise in the Volt Switch users, and it being an excellent answer to Rotom-Heat probably made it shift there.  And going by your example of how "people saw others using it and then copied" please show me a replay of a person using the mons you suggested to beat screens.  Gligar was probably UU back then because Medicham / Heracross were at a higher usage back then, and let me know if I am wrong, but they should be at a lower usage now. 

 

If you want me to be the first person to use the strategies you outlined to beat screens, then I'm happy to be your test subject.  Pass me the teams, and I will play this UU official.  Your logical argument holds no water if it doesn't work in practice. 

 

Baton pass was once banned before it became an issue in PvE, so yes it is relevant.  We had taunt users / roar users back then too. 

Edited by NikhilR
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7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

So you place your rocks for free, stalled a few turns of screens, kept your sash, I mean this is a dream come true. Azumarill should not be able to sweep you if you have a generic water resistance.

So there are some prerequisites here from what I see, and one of them is that Mamo runs Sash.  You get your rocks on the turn Rotom switches in, but then how do you proceed? And yes Azumarill may not sweep because your Azumarill counter took it out, but it's not going to be healthy enough to take on Scrafty or Linoone then. 

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4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

So there are some prerequisites here from what I see, and one of them is that Mamo runs Sash.  You get your rocks on the turn Rotom switches in, but then how do you proceed? And yes Azumarill may not sweep because your Azumarill counter took it out, but it's not going to be healthy enough to take on Scrafty or Linoone then. 

And why exactly does your azumarill counter/check needs to be a scrafty or linoone counter/check as well?

 

Also, keep in my that in this scenario, electrode only places 1 screen, not 2.

Edited by gbwead
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Just now, gbwead said:

And why exactly does your azumarill counter/check needs to be a scrafty or linoone counter/check as well?

My position is that screens team are incredibly difficult to beat because of the combination of the mons, not the individual mons itself.  The individual mons each have their own counters, but to me it seems like now when you teambuild, you have to make sure that each mon that you have counters one of the 6 in a screens team.  The impression I got from reading your comments was that there is a strategy to beat screens without severely hampering teambuilding.

 

So to go back to my point, it feels like if you're going to start teambuilding with UU, it first has to start off with the process of dedicating each slot in your team for each mon in an opposing screens team.

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4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

My position is that screens team are incredibly difficult to beat because of the combination of the mons, not the individual mons itself.  The individual mons each have their own counters, but to me it seems like now when you teambuild, you have to make sure that each mon that you have counters one of the 6 in a screens team.  The impression I got from reading your comments was that there is a strategy to beat screens without severely hampering teambuilding.

 

So to go back to my point, it feels like if you're going to start teambuilding with UU, it first has to start off with the process of dedicating each slot in your team for each mon in an opposing screens team.

i mean how many pokemons do you expect to set up after placing down 1 single screen that will last 8 turns? 

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Just now, NikhilR said:

What do you mean by placing only 1 single screen?

You send electrode on the field. I go Mamoswine  and you place 1 screen. You switch out to rotom, I place rocks. 6 turns of screens left.

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I understand the point of pachi but when u need run specific mons to stop 1 team, something is bad, seriously are useless; whimsi defog, mamo (subs rocks stonedge eq), fakeout users, thats not UU, thats not the metagame of it, we can do a specific team that can be useful with the meta and has advantage vs this team (we can see these cases in VGC metagames) but if im not bad this is centralizing a tier, and when this happen exists some called BL to nerf them, seismitoad in actual gen8 OU is good but for who? dracovish and now is uber, conkeldurr in OU mmo was and is a problem but it doesnt need specific counter, yeah, you can run cofagrigus or other check to has adventage, but also just run mons that outspeed it and resists a machpunch. This discussion is not about a one mon or a pair, its a team and I can understand the reasons to defend it, its not black and white, its gray, but If i should make a decission, would be ban electrode and send it to BL, this team can still good with others screeners, like serperior or sigilyph, but lose powerful and is more stoppable.

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Well the argument is going to a point where people are just being spoonfed with answers.. there are many games in the past 3 months where the team has been stopped and misused.. from my experience mandibuzz never stopped me sweep when using this team.. the tier in general has shifted much more in favour of offense and many people are stuck into using 4 wall comps which now are being abused with simply stealth rock and volt turning from stuff like rotom which is dangerous pivot, while having a handful of other strong wallbreakers, or the existing ones are being facilitated by them..the issue is failing to adapt, not the specific team.. i believe if people do the research answers will come.

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47 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You send electrode on the field. I go Mamoswine  and you place 1 screen. You switch out to rotom, I place rocks. 6 turns of screens left.

Given that Venomoth + Scrafty just need 2-3 turns each to set up, and Linoone + Azumarill need only one turn to set up, I think it's more than enough, right?

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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Given that Venomoth + Scrafty just need 2-3 turns each to set up, and Linoone + Azumarill need only one turn to set up, I think it's more than enough, right?

I don't think so. You have 6 turns of screen left, you still didn't set up and you are not on a pokemon that can set up either.

Edited by gbwead
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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't think so. You have 6 turns of screen left, you still didn't set up and you are not on a pokemon that can set up either.

But the turn following that is the most crucial turn since it decides if you can set up.

 

"Mamo switches into Electrode, the Electrode user then goes to Rotom, and then they can Volt Switch / Overheat / Double Switch? "

 

You may have to win a 50/50 there because Rotom can either Volt Switch into an incoming mon, or it can stay in and Overheat.  If it Overheats, your Mamo dies (depending on if Sash and if broken) or something else comes in that tanks Overheat, but allows something in the screens team to then set up.  That's then 3-4 turns remaining, which is enough.

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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

But the turn following that is the most crucial turn since it decides if you can set up.

 

"Mamo switches into Electrode, the Electrode user then goes to Rotom, and then they can Volt Switch / Overheat / Double Switch? "

 

You may have to win a 50/50 there because Rotom can either Volt Switch into an incoming mon, or it can stay in and Overheat.  If it Overheats, your Mamo dies (depending on if Sash and if broken) or something else comes in that tanks Overheat, but allows something in the screens team to then set up.  That's then 3-4 turns remaining, which is enough.

Not really, depending on what screen you decided to place, all mamoswine has to do in front of rotom is stay. If Rotom chooses to kill you at the cost of two extra turns, you just have to set up on your own mon and gg. Once Rotom does overheat to kill Mamo, Empoleon can freely set up and sweep everything. Same thing could be said about Azumarill. Same thing could be said about several mons. But if you choose to switch out in front of Rotom, you have still good options like Torkoal because even if you volt switch in front of it you still can't set up anything against it.

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5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Not really, depending on what screen you decided to place, all mamoswine has to do in front of rotom is stay. If Rotom chooses to kill you at the cost of two extra turns, you just have to set up on your own mon and gg. Once Rotom does overheat to kill Mamo, Empoleon can freely set up and sweep everything. Same thing could be said about Azumarill. Same thing could be said about several mons. But if you choose to switch out in front of Rotom, you have still good options like Torkoal because even if you volt switch in front of it you still can't set up anything against it.

There are a lot of factors that come into play, such as what the remaining members are of the Mamoswine user's team, because accordingly the Electrode user will set up the right screen against it.  What mon are we talking about that could set up and "gg" it?  What kind of Empo are you referring to that would set up? SD?

 

What kind of team would run Mamo + Torkoal?

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7 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

There are a lot of factors that come into play, such as what the remaining members are of the Mamoswine user's team, because accordingly the Electrode user will set up the right screen against it.  What mon are we talking about that could set up and "gg" it?  What kind of Empo are you referring to that would set up? SD?

Both Agility special Empoleon and SD physical Empoleon probably works depending on the screen. Metagross Agility probably does insane dmg to that team if reflect isn't up. Venomoth can also set up for free if Rotom did overheat and light screen isn't up. It's not that hard to punish really.

 

7 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

What kind of team would run Mamo + Torkoal?

A sun team

 

I said Torkoal as an example, but if Mamoswine is not the stealth rock user, I don't see a problem with running Torkoal or Druddigon, both would stop any kind of set up.

Edited by gbwead
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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Both Agility special Empoleon and SD physical Empoleon probably works depending on the screen.

 

A sun team

Agility Special Empo probably is going to be set up fodder for Venomoth (again depending on screen).  SD Empo can definitely put in work, but I wonder how it fares vs Scrafty.

 

Can you point me to a replay of a sun team that has run Mamo + Torkoal in it?  I don't remember ever seeing such a combo and I would like to see its utility.

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4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Agility Special Empo probably is going to be set up fodder for Venomoth (again depending on screen).  SD Empo can definitely put in work, but I wonder how it fares vs Scrafty.

Don't forget that thanks to electrode, rocks were set for free. This means Empoleon Surf with either Life orb, Mystic Water or Wise Glasses will OHKO Venomoth. Scrafty is not in that team.

 

4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Can you point me to a replay of a sun team that has run Mamo + Torkoal in it?  I don't remember ever seeing such a combo and I would like to see its utility.

I'm not going to actively go look for uu teams with that combo lol, that would take forever. Why would these mons be incompatible? Why would Mamoswine not be playable in a sun team?

Edited by gbwead
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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Don't forget that thanks to electrode, rocks were set for free. This means Empoleon Surf with either Life orb, Mystic Water or Wise Glasses will OHKO Venomoth. 

 

I'm not going to actively go look for uu teams with that combo lol, that would take forever. Why would these mons be incompatible? Why would Mamoswine not be playable in a sun team?

Yeah, maybe Empo beats Venomoth.  Does it beat Scrafty?

 

I'm just not sure what Mamoswine would offer to a sun team, or what its role would be in such a team.  If you're running a sun team, you'd want something that either sets up sun, abuses sun, or takes out your sun answers, and maybe it's my ignorance, but what role does Mamo play in that team?

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