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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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3 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Check the calcs he provided lol

When I search "ice punch" by the author "senile", I only find a post about Azumarill. Do you have a link?

Just now, DarylDixon said:

even machamp should be banned nothing else aside of spiritomb walls it

under which criteria should it be banned then

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40 minutes ago, DarylDixon said:

even machamp should be banned nothing else aside of spiritomb walls it

The truth has been spoken

Nah for real, i was hoping someone else would do that, but i'll try to make an argument on why Machamp is absolutely unhealthy for the NU metagame

vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #39815661

Machamp is one of the many fighting types in NU, but has no trouble to distinguish himself. To understand how powerful this thing is, just compare it to conkeldurr. They share the same base stats total, with the four armed fighter being a little faster, while the pillar moving beast having slightly more attack and being noticeably tougher physically defensive wise. On the other hands machamp sports a great signature ability in No Guard and access to close combat. 

It's hard to deny that Conkeldurr is considerably stronger than Machamp; but considering he is one of the top OU threats, it shows how strong machamp actually is. The two mons share several traits: an awesome ability in guts, and access to an almost perfect coverage, thanks to the elemental punches, facade and stone edge. although we only had a few days to see how it performs, from my experience machamp already proved itself to be absolutely dominant. 

First off, it's extremely versatile. it can run several sets: mini conkeldur with guts and 4 attacks -even having priority-; sub toxic making use of it's signature ability; a bulky or specially defensive bulk up set. there's no pokemon that can certainly stop all three of these sets, with the guts variant being the most common, accord to my experience.

if machamp gets on the field, something is sure to go down. and rarely it's going to be machamp.

let's start to focus on what could in theory stop it; I'll give for granted there are rocks on both sides.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 106-125 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. rocks would hardly matter. (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 84-99 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery rocks would hardly matter. (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Golbat: 86-102 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Rocks would hardly matter (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 95-112 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 136-160 (79 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (96% 2hko without stealth rocks)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 105-124 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 88-104 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Well i tried to calc all the mons that in theory could stop this thing. But it's clear those won't do. Only a specific kind of wall won't get 2hkoed: ghosts.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 49-58 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 

The big question is, what is spiritomb gonna do? it can't rest. it can't wow. It sits there waiting for ice hax.

0 SpA Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 24-29 (12.1 - 14.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 54-63 (27.4 - 31.9%) -- 65.7% chance to 3HKO after burn damage.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 42-50 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Funnily enough dusknoir is the best machamp wall. Too bad it's not good for the rest of the meta. 

and this is only true for the guts set; Foul play won't break a no guard sub toxic set, and the bulky ghost type will be easily toxiced.

Walling Machamp is not on the table; Let's try to revenge kill it.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 162-192 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

nice you almost killed him

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 186-219 (130 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO nope

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 133-156 (67.5 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

dead

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 56-67 (41.1 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 56-67 (41.1 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage 

yeah you got it, giving up on the revenge killer. 2-1 for Machamp.

 

252+ SpA Magmortar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 124-148 (62.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 181-214 (120.6 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 130-153 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

Overall, the best machamp revenge killers, in my opinion, are espeon, scarfed braviary and honchcrow; the flying types have to be wary of bullet punch, that will inflict heavy damages, rocks and brave bird recoil, due to neutral moves not being able to ko machamp. About espeon, it shows not only strong how strong machamp is; but also how strong machamp is in the current meta: being rich in dark types, a dark + fighting type core is great, the dark types can trap and absorb psychics, while allowing machamp to sweep the oppent's dark types.

I'm not really great at creating this kind of arguments, but since machamp dropped in NU, my fav tier, i felt extremely restricted with team building. There's no doubt in my mind that machamp is too much to handle; it is UU on smogon, in a tier with legendary swords, and legendary psychic types.

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36 minutes ago, richardbenzina said:

The truth has been spoken

Nah for real, i was hoping someone else would do that, but i'll try to make an argument on why Machamp is absolutely unhealthy for the NU metagame

vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #39815661

Machamp is one of the many fighting types in NU, but has no trouble to distinguish himself. To understand how powerful this thing is, just compare it to conkeldurr. They share the same base stats total, with the four armed fighter being a little faster, while the pillar moving beast having slightly more attack and being noticeably tougher physically defensive wise. On the other hands machamp sports a great signature ability in No Guard and access to close combat. 

It's hard to deny that Conkeldurr is considerably stronger than Machamp; but considering he is one of the top OU threats, it shows how strong machamp actually is. The two mons share several traits: an awesome ability in guts, and access to an almost perfect coverage, thanks to the elemental punches, facade and stone edge. although we only had a few days to see how it performs, from my experience machamp already proved itself to be absolutely dominant. 

First off, it's extremely versatile. it can run several sets: mini conkeldur with guts and 4 attacks -even having priority-; sub toxic making use of it's signature ability; a bulky or specially defensive bulk up set. there's no pokemon that can certainly stop all three of these sets, with the guts variant being the most common, accord to my experience.

if machamp gets on the field, something is sure to go down. and rarely it's going to be machamp.

let's start to focus on what could in theory stop it; I'll give for granted there are rocks on both sides.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 106-125 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. rocks would hardly matter. (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 84-99 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery rocks would hardly matter. (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Golbat: 86-102 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Rocks would hardly matter (87% 87% 2hko without)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 95-112 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 136-160 (79 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (96% 2hko without stealth rocks)

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 105-124 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 88-104 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Well i tried to calc all the mons that in theory could stop this thing. But it's clear those won't do. Only a specific kind of wall won't get 2hkoed: ghosts.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 49-58 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 

The big question is, what is spiritomb gonna do? it can't rest. it can't wow. It sits there waiting for ice hax.

0 SpA Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 24-29 (12.1 - 14.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 54-63 (27.4 - 31.9%) -- 65.7% chance to 3HKO after burn damage.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 42-50 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Funnily enough dusknoir is the best machamp wall. Too bad it's not good for the rest of the meta. 

and this is only true for the guts set; Foul play won't break a no guard sub toxic set, and the bulky ghost type will be easily toxiced.

Walling Machamp is not on the table; Let's try to revenge kill it.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 162-192 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

nice you almost killed him

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 186-219 (130 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO nope

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 133-156 (67.5 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

dead

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 56-67 (41.1 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 56-67 (41.1 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage 

yeah you got it, giving up on the revenge killer. 2-1 for Machamp.

 

252+ SpA Magmortar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 124-148 (62.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 181-214 (120.6 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 130-153 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

 

Overall, the best machamp revenge killers, in my opinion, are espeon, scarfed braviary and honchcrow; the flying types have to be wary of bullet punch, that will inflict heavy damages, rocks and brave bird recoil, due to neutral moves not being able to ko machamp. About espeon, it shows not only strong how strong machamp is; but also how strong machamp is in the current meta: being rich in dark types, a dark + fighting type core is great, the dark types can trap and absorb psychics, while allowing machamp to sweep the oppent's dark types.

I'm not really great at creating this kind of arguments, but since machamp dropped in NU, my fav tier, i felt extremely restricted with team building. There's no doubt in my mind that machamp is too much to handle; it is UU on smogon, in a tier with legendary swords, and legendary psychic types.

I don't understand. Why is this machamp so op but hariyama isn't even used?

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I think you guys are forgetting Machamp has been in NU for less than a week. How can a pokemon become unhealthy for the tier in just days? There is just no way that is possible. It takes months to determine if a pokemon should even be suspected as unhealthy. A few days in NU is simply not enough for all these bold claims. 

 

If you guys want Machamp quick banned, then you have to prove that it undeniably fits uber characteristics and clearly that is not the case with Machamp that gets stopped by Spiritomb, a wall with over 20% usage. And btw, as Spiritomb, if you are trying to kill Machamp with Dark moves, it's obviously not going to work. Is Volcarona going to use Bug Buzz to kill Conkeldurr in OU? Ofc not. Spiritomb has access to both Hex and Psychic, so there is really no issue.

Edited by gbwead
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14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I think you guys are forgetting Machamp has been in NU for less than a week. How can a pokemon become unhealthy for the tier in just days? There is just no way that is possible. It takes months to determine if a pokemon should even be suspected as unhealthy. A few days in NU is simply not enough for all these bold claims. 

 

If you guys want Machamp quick banned, then you have to prove that it undeniably fits uber characteristics and clearly that is not the case with Machamp that gets stopped by Spiritomb, a wall with over 20% usage. And btw, as Spiritomb, if you are trying to kill Machamp with Dark moves, it's obviously not going to work. Is Volcarona going to use Bug Buzz to kill Conkeldurr in OU? Ofc not. Spiritomb has access to both Hex and Psychic, so there is really no issue.

I am just giving my 2 cents. If we want to wait, let's wait, yet i feel machamp has to be adressed quickly.

About spiritomb, it's not really known for its movepool. I calced dark pulse since cmind set is the most common set; and i calced foul play since accord to my calcs is the most damaging move. Spiri can't do much else.

27 minutes ago, pachima said:

I don't understand. Why is this machamp so op but hariyama isn't even used?

For the same reason why Machamp, while having so many similarities with conkeldurr, is Nu, while his 5th gen brother is top OU.

Hariyama has worst stats, i'm not at home for the full calcs but just as an example

252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 46-55 (29.2 - 35%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, it's now very hard to get that 3hko, which only occurs with rocks, allowing spiri to rest and stall. Hariyama is slower and has way less bulk in favour of hp, making pain split way more viable. It's easier to revenge kill overall. Small differences, great results

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1 minute ago, richardbenzina said:

I am just giving my 2 cents. If we want to wait, let's wait, yet i feel machamp has to be adressed quickly.

About spiritomb, it's not really known for its movepool. I calced dark pulse since cmind set is the most common set; and i calced foul play since accord to my calcs is the most damaging move. Spiri can't do much else.

For the same reason why Machamp, while having so many similarities with conkeldurr, is Nu, while his 5th gen brother is top OU.

Hariyama has worst stats, i'm not at home for the full calcs but just as an example

252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 46-55 (29.2 - 35%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, it's now very hard to get that 3hko, which only occurs with rocks, allowing spiri to rest and stall. Hariyama is slower and has way less bulk in favour of hp, making pain split way more viable. It's easier to revenge kill overall. Small differences, great results

I was so waiting for you to say that, however, the only relevant stat Hariyama lacks comparing to machamp is those 10 attack which isn't that relevant unless on specific scenarios. The 5 base speed difference is irrelevant too since your set was 252 hp, and lastly, 128 defenses hariyama is actually bulkier than 252 hp machamp on both sides of the spectrum. 

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5 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

Characteristics of an offensive Uber

There is one Garchomp set I want to focus one. Jolly with Yache Berry and SD, Dclaw, EQ and Fire Fang. This set is so ridiculous because it can 2HKO every Pokémon (except two highly specific mons) with just a Swords Dance.

'But StinkNice' you say 'there are so many Pokemon that can 2HKO many Pokemon after a SD'

You are correct, my overused narration device. The single thing that makes Garchomp different though, is it's troll base speed of 102. Meaning it can often dish out two hits, before being hit twice itself. On top of that it has one of the best dual typings in the game, gaining a 102 base speed STAB EQ. This set is so completely offensively broken that there are only two defensive Pokémon that can reliably deal with this set. Don't believe me?

  Reveal hidden contents

These calcs are made with the following assumptions.

1. Perfect Pokémon

2. Stealth Rock up on both sides (which is fair to assume in like 90% of the matches)

3. Garchomp forcing a switch and going for a SD. (Really easy to do with 102 base speed and being a freaking landshark).

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-400 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

One of the defensive Pokemon that can somewhat 'beat' Garchomp, except if Sand is up.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
'Techinically' Skarmory can kill a Garchomp with Counter, if Garchomp damages it by 92, which will happen around 50% of the time. But that's not the only problem with Skarmory. Because if it has Counter, Garchomp will force a 50/50 on the Skarmory. Even then, Skarmory will have to run a highly specific set: Counter, Whirlwind, SR, ???. Greatly reducing the efficiency of Skarmory as a defensive wall. So to call Skarmory a reliable way to beat Garchomp is a massive stretch.
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A highly specific Mon that can semi-reliably beat Garchomp.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 109-130 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 56-68 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 84-100 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 52-62 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 24.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (81.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 86-102 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 96-114 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (91.8 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only defensive Pokémon that can beat Garchomp every time, together with Umbreon. Two highly specific Pokémon for the OU meta.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-211 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

  Woops its dead

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 120-143 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Woops its dead

 

B-but choice scarf Mamo:

252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 152-182 (82.6 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Almost every SD'er has the potential to 2hko every pokemon with Swords Dance because that's the purpose of it.  Like Infernape can do that too.  Infernape has much lesser bulk than Garchomp, but if it has the right resist berry, it can break through most walls in the game.  It has the capability of also dishing out two hits before being hit twice.  SD Excadrill can 2hko most stuff in the tier too while being able to dish out 2 hits before being hit twice.  

 

5 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

These calcs are made with the following assumptions.

1. Perfect Pokémon

2. Stealth Rock up on both sides (which is fair to assume in like 90% of the matches)

3. Garchomp forcing a switch and going for a SD. (Really easy to do with 102 base speed and being a freaking landshark).

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-400 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

One of the defensive Pokemon that can somewhat 'beat' Garchomp, except if Sand is up.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
'Techinically' Skarmory can kill a Garchomp with Counter, if Garchomp damages it by 92, which will happen around 50% of the time. But that's not the only problem with Skarmory. Because if it has Counter, Garchomp will force a 50/50 on the Skarmory. Even then, Skarmory will have to run a highly specific set: Counter, Whirlwind, SR, ???. Greatly reducing the efficiency of Skarmory as a defensive wall. So to call Skarmory a reliable way to beat Garchomp is a massive stretch.
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A highly specific Mon that can semi-reliably beat Garchomp.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 109-130 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 56-68 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 84-100 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 52-62 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 24.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (81.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 86-102 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 96-114 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (91.8 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only defensive Pokémon that can beat Garchomp every time, together with Umbreon. Two highly specific Pokémon for the OU meta.

So if you manage to switch in Garchomp (not hard to do with a slow U-turn or Volt Switch), your opponent is almost guaranteed to lose a Pokémon unless they run Mandibuzz or Umbreon. I'll repeat. Garchomp will almost always force the opponent to lose a Pokémon unless they use Mons that are supposed to be in UU. When a Pokémon can so reliably delete Pokémon, with minimal support (Stealth Rocks) it certainly fits some of the offensive Uber criteria.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-211 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

  Woops its dead

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 120-143 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Woops its dead

 

B-but choice scarf Mamo:

252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 152-182 (82.6 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

But that's the function of almost any wallbreaker or offensive pokemon -> to have the ability to guaranteed kill something.  I'm not sure why it's so unique with Garchomp.  You only have to run Mandibuzz + Umbreon if you want to be able to switch in and always wall Garchomp, but if your strategy or team is built in such a manner where if Garchomp can poke a hole in your team and then it falls apart, then to me that's more of an issue with your team.

 

5 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-211 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

  Woops its dead

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 120-143 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Woops its dead

 

B-but choice scarf Mamo:

252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 152-182 (82.6 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I could go on but I'll save you the trouble. The only three Pokémon that can reliably check Garchomp when switching in on a Swords Dance or ineffective move are Choice Band Weavile, Scarf Hydreigon and Scarf Salamence (having to lock itself into Draco Meteor).

 

'But ThinkDumb, you stupid oaf. I can just revenge kill it after it has killed a Pokémon'

How delightful, you can attempt to kill Garchomp after it has already fulfilled its purpose.

Garchomp being able to delete one pokemon from your team shouldn't qualify as a massive win for the Garchomp user because you still have 5 remaining members on the team which should be capable of winning the game.  

 

5 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

These calcs are made with the following assumptions.

1. Perfect Pokémon

2. Stealth Rock up on both sides (which is fair to assume in like 90% of the matches)

3. Garchomp forcing a switch and going for a SD. (Really easy to do with 102 base speed and being a freaking landshark).

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-400 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

One of the defensive Pokemon that can somewhat 'beat' Garchomp, except if Sand is up.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
'Techinically' Skarmory can kill a Garchomp with Counter, if Garchomp damages it by 92, which will happen around 50% of the time. But that's not the only problem with Skarmory. Because if it has Counter, Garchomp will force a 50/50 on the Skarmory. Even then, Skarmory will have to run a highly specific set: Counter, Whirlwind, SR, ???. Greatly reducing the efficiency of Skarmory as a defensive wall. So to call Skarmory a reliable way to beat Garchomp is a massive stretch.
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A highly specific Mon that can semi-reliably beat Garchomp.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 109-130 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 56-68 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 84-100 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 52-62 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 24.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (81.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 86-102 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 96-114 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (91.8 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only defensive Pokémon that can beat Garchomp every time, together with Umbreon. Two highly specific Pokémon for the OU meta.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-211 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

  Woops its dead

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 120-143 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Woops its dead

 

B-but choice scarf Mamo:

252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 152-182 (82.6 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Competitiveness and centralization

A Pokémon that has so little reliable counters and checks and is so easy to throw on any team, is bound to be centralizing and uncompetitive. Uncompetitive in the sense that it doesn't take any skill to play this Pokémon. If your opponent does not have a Mandibuzz, you are highly likely to just outright delete an opposing Pokémon by clicking Swords Dance. It is simply ludicrous. Centralizing in the sense that you have freaking Mandibuzz in OU, and the fact that it makes balanced offense teams extremely bad in OU. Your only real competitive options in OU would be highly offensive or very defensive. That doesn't sound like a healthy competitive metagame to me.

 

But I'll leave you with these final thoughts. Garchomp has been a menacing force in every generation is has been in. In DPP OU, it was banned. Not only because of Sand Veil, but because of all the points I made above. And consider this, DPP OU actually had more checks to Garchomp than we do in MMO, like Scarf Jirachi, Outrage Flygon, Latias, Suicune, and Crescelia. Even in BW OU, with every hidden ability and updated moves and legendaries in OU, Garchomp is still A+ ranked.

 

Now try to justify this monster in MMO OU where we are missing many of these tools.

Garchomp is admittedly one of the best mons, and you can never go wrong with throwing it into your team.  The fact that it doesn't take skill to use Garchomp can literally apply to a ton of pokemon here.  I have run balanced teams in MM, and with success.  If you wish to look at replays of my games in tours, you're free to do so.

 

Garchomp was also banned in DPP OU because of the 120 BP Outrage which had the ability to nuke stuff like Cresselia, and that's something important that you're overlooking.  The metagame here is VERY different from DPP so you can't compare the two imo.  Garchomp could easily sweep in DPP OU because of how you lacked more defensive answers to it than MMO + you were dependent on scarf users to revenge kill it, and a majority of the scarf users in DPP can be trapped.  Scarf Rachi -> Mag / Outrage Flygon gets locked so something else can set up or freely kill it / Latias could get trapped too -> Scizor or TTar.  In DPP you can also get away with not using to scarfers to check DD mons because they can be taken out by priority users.  DD TTar -> Mach Loom / DD Gyara -> Espeed Lucario and it has coverage issers / DD Dnite -> Espeed Lucario + Bullet Punch Scizor.  You can also reverse sweep them by running TR Zong.  So essentially in DPP, you could get away with not using scarfers, but Garchomp mandated using scarfers, and when your scarfer is not guaranteed to take out Garchomp because of vulnerable it is to being trapped, that was a problem too.

 

In BW OU also there are no real defensive answers to Garchomp.  It can literally 2hko almost any mon there.  Landorus can be taken down by Draco Meteor with Gem, or with SD + Aqua Tail.  Rotom-Was gets nuked by Outrage.  The difference is that BW OU has more revenge killers compared to it, which admittedly we don't have.  But I think the ones we have are enough or are capable of doing the job.  

 

Regarding your calc, you used Icicle Crash on Scarf Mamo, when Icicle Spear would be the better option so as to break the Yache Berry first on the first hit. 

 

This isn't me saying you're wrong about Garchomp, but I just feel like regarding your arguments about centralization / lacking skill to use / ability to take out a mon -> these are all concepts that would apply to a lot of OU pokemon we currently have.  Initially I thought Chomp was banworthy too, but after playing several OU games I just didn't have the same opinion.  Personally, I find mons like Togekiss + Conkeldurr + Volcarona more banworthy.

Edited by NikhilR
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1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Almost every SD'er has the potential to 2hko every pokemon with Swords Dance because that's the purpose of it.  Like Infernape can do that too.  Infernape has much lesser bulk than Garchomp, but if it has the right resist berry, it can break through most walls in the game.  It has the capability of also dishing out two hits before being hit twice.  SD Excadrill can 2hko most stuff in the tier too while being able to dish out 2 hits before being hit twice.  

This statement is very misleading because it puts Garchomp on par with other Sword Dance users when it absolutely isn't.

 

Garchomp SD Yache Berry has an extremely limited amount of counters/checks and the viability of those counters/checks is more than questionable. This is not the case with other Sword Dance users. Tentacruel, Starmie, Dragonite, Salamence, Gengar and others can check Infernape very effectively. There is no equivalent for Garchomp. 

 

Infernape SD lacking both the power and bulk of Garchomp is significantly easier to counter and check than Garchomp. Those counters and checks are significantly more viable as a whole in the tier as well and are not punished as hard. Furthermore, Infernape needs to Life Orb in order for it to handle big walls like Reuniclus and Rotom-Wash, unlike Garchomp that can afford holding a Yache Berry if it chooses to. Infernape also has a great movepool, but it still suffers from 4MSS way more than Garchomp. In order for Infernape to hit, Starmie, Tentacruel, Salamence, Dragonite and others. Garchomp doesn't have to make any compromise with perfect Ground/Dragon/Fire coverage. 

 

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Garchomp being able to delete one pokemon from your team shouldn't qualify as a massive win for the Garchomp user because you still have 5 remaining members on the team which should be capable of winning the game. 

Why would that not be considered like a massive win? A pokemon doesn't need to straight up sweep 6 pokemons in order to be considered an uber mon. If Garchomp is guaranteed to get a kill, that's a problem.

 

If an mon doesn't have a speed boosting aspect to it, it is automatically disqualified as a potential uber mon because it won't be able to sweep scarf revenge killers? That doesn't sound right at all. Wall breakers need a decent amount of prediction to break through. Garchomp doesn't need much prediction at all.

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

This statement is very misleading because it puts Garchomp on par with other Sword Dance users when it absolutely isn't.

 

Garchomp SD Yache Berry has an extremely limited amount of counters/checks and the viability of those counters/checks is more than questionable. 

Garchomp is definitely on a higher class than other SD users, but the function of every SD user is to break through certain walls or limit as many possible answers to it as possible.  Garchomp SD Yache Berry has a limited set of answers yes, but that is the case with almost every mon with every set.  You cannot have pokemon A counter every possible set of pokemon B, that's just not possible.  If Garchomp has Yache Berry, it cannot freely SD vs a scald user, or something like defensive Rotom-Wash or Cofagrigus can come in and Will-O-Wisp it.  You can also play around certain threats by giving them Rocky Helmet and pile on additional damage on Garchomp.  See Rocky Helmet Gliscor / Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn.  

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Tentacruel, Starmie, Dragonite, Salamence, Gengar and others can check Infernape very effectively. There is no equivalent for Garchomp. 

+2 252 Atk Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tentacruel: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 94-112 (32 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 224-265 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 214-252 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Infernape can also run Thunder Punch to take out Tentacruel / Starmie if it wishes.  

 

+2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 390-460 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 195-230 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252 Atk Infernape Blaze Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 357-421 (136.7 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 223-264 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Infernape can run a multitude of options as its third move, are you going to run multiple checks for it?

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Infernape SD lacking both the power and bulk of Garchomp is significantly easier to counter and check than Garchomp. Those counters and checks are significantly more viable as a whole in the tier as well and are not punished as hard. Furthermore, Infernape needs to Life Orb in order for it to handle big walls like Reuniclus and Rotom-Wash, unlike Garchomp that can afford holding a Yache Berry if it chooses to.

Infernape has much lesser bulk than Garchomp, I agree.  That lack of bulk can be compensated by having the right berry.  Infernape doesn't need Life Orb for big walls like Reuniclus or Rotom-Wash.  Its lack of bulk can be compensated by having the right berry resist.  Infernape does not have the same base attk as Garchomp, but that too is compensated by SD.

 

4 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 178-211 (60.7 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 345-406 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Infernape suffers from 4 MSS, but unlike Garchomp, it can't be burnt which is super useful.  If Garchomp chooses to not hold a yache berry, it makes itself more prone to being revenge killed by Ice Beam users.  For every change in its set, you gain an advantage but also lose something valuable in the process.  

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Infernape also has a great movepool, but it still suffers from 4MSS way more than Garchomp. In order for Infernape to hit, Starmie, Tentacruel, Salamence, Dragonite and others. Garchomp doesn't have to make any compromise with perfect Ground/Dragon/Fire coverage. 

Let me address your 4mss argument this way.  Infernape can run Mach Punch / Thunder Punch / Stone Edge as its 3rd move, for each of which there are different checks / counters.  You won't know which set you're facing prior to the game, so the only hope you have is to pray you either have the right check to it, or you run every possible check to it.  That's not a healthy approach, which is why it'd be easier to resort to revenge killing.  While Garchomp may not have to compromise with Ground / Dragon / Fire coverage, at least knowing that it doesn't have to compromise gives you foreknowledge.

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Why would that not be considered like a massive win? A pokemon doesn't need to straight up sweep 6 pokemons in order to be considered an uber mon. If Garchomp is guaranteed to get a kill, that's a problem.

It is not a massive win because Garchomp being able to take out one mon in your team means it has only earned 1/6th of a win.  There's still five more mons to go.  Garchomp isn't guaranteed a kill as easily as you make it out to be, because there's so many factors that go into it.  Like if Garchomp is getting an SD, the question becomes what exactly are you doing that turn or why are you giving it a free SD?  Garchomp is not going to get a free SD vs Ice Beam p2 / Ice Fang Hippo / Wow or Hpump Rotom-Wash / Blissey Ice Beam.  Even if it does get an SD, it's not like it necessarily beats them. 

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 229-271 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

in return, Ice Beam 2hkos.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

in return, Ice Fang 2hkos.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

in return, Hydro Pump 2hkos.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 301-355 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

in return, Ice Beam 2hkos.

 

The issue to me seems that you give Garchomp a free opportunity to SD by switching in something else the turn that it SDs instead of attacking it straight away.  We have team preview so you can make smart decisions on how to go about this.

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

If an mon doesn't have a speed boosting aspect to it, it is automatically disqualified as a potential uber mon because it won't be able to sweep scarf revenge killers? That doesn't sound right at all. Wall breakers need a decent amount of prediction to break through. Garchomp doesn't need much prediction at all.

No, we're not assuming that because it can be revenge killed that it is automatically disqualified as an uber mon.  This is the language from the Tiering Etiquette guide regarding Offensive Characteristic:

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

I don't see a Garchomp completely sweeping a team with little effort.  I don't see an opportunity where Garchomp gets to freely SD without trading something in return -> losing health / getting a burn / consumption of berry.

Edited by NikhilR
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5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Does this look like the face of something you want to piss off man?

 

d78.png

 

dragon have one immunty importante at volt switch 

dragon have big stats offensive and deff than monkey

he no need to play stone eadge = no risk to miss

he no need to play move closes combat (drop def phy and def spe) (and ez rk with priorty)

no need play flare blitz move = lose hp 

 

and the type dragon ground >>>>>>> fire fight 

 


 
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Kings, I just want to echo what my fellow Pokemon enthusiasts are saying here. While I agree that Garchomp may be ban worthy, shouldn't all Pocket Monsters be given a fighting chance? It seems in our blindness, we've forgotten what really matters, and that's human connection. We are all in this together and whether we like it or not, we are the ones that keep the wheels turning on this evolutionary train. Whether Garchomp is banned to Ubers or not, what matters is that we all keep supporting each other like the Kings we are, we decide our own destiny and we will get through this together for the sake of human kind. Thank you for listening, brothers.

 

Regards, Chief.

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1 minute ago, MadaraSixSix said:

 

dragon have one immunty importante at volt switch 

dragon have big stats offensive and deff than monkey

he no need to play stone eadge = no risk to miss

he no need to play move closes combat (drop def phy and def spe) (and ez rk with priorty)

no need play flare blitz move = lose hp 

 

and the type dragon ground >>>>>>> fire fight 

 



 

Fire have one immunity important will o wisp or burn.

Fire have more speed and good coverage.

Fire use wide lens and hit stone edge = hit and you dead.  Dragon use Fire fang and miss = dead.

Fire no need to play moves EQ and opp switch flying / levitate user.  Ez dodge.

Fire no need play move Flare Blitz and instead run Blaze Kick.  Blaze Kick burn and crit opp, Fire is op.

Fire no 4x weakness to Ice Beam.  p2 Ice Beam LO Garchomp = lol dead. p2 Ice Beam Infernape = live.

Fire ability blaze in less 33% health range more power fire move = kill everything.  Garchomp no ability lol = useless.

 

Infernape >>>>>>>>>>>> Garchomp

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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Fire have one immunity important will o wisp or burn.

Fire have more speed and good coverage.

Fire use wide lens and hit stone edge = hit and you dead.  Dragon use Fire fang and miss = dead.

Fire no need to play moves EQ and opp switch flying / levitate user.  Ez dodge.

Fire no need play move Flare Blitz and instead run Blaze Kick.  Blaze Kick burn and crit opp, Fire is op.

Fire no 4x weakness to Ice Beam.  p2 Ice Beam LO Garchomp = lol dead. p2 Ice Beam Infernape = live.

Fire ability blaze in less 33% health range more power fire move = kill everything.  Garchomp no ability lol = useless.

 

Infernape >>>>>>>>>>>> Garchomp

mmm immunity volt > immunity cause one will o wish possible miss and 2 garchomp possible play sub and 3 no have price in your teambuild you play one poke sweeper with immuty

elec you know this ^^

 

yes monkey fast but no bulky and ok but dragon have good coverage too

 

niceeee wide lens you op but if you play wide lens you no have your berry for move water no ? mmm fire fang have only 5% chance to miss and possible flinch i accept this risk

if i win at no play wide lens on my poke 

 

with my dragon i no force with eq when i have my stab dragon for fly poke ?

 

blaze kick possible miss and you lose your power but ok 

monkey no have 4 weakness yes you resist bro ! but you have full other weak and commun weak water ground psy ... AND if you play wide lens you dont resist move water xd

my dragon no miss no need lens he have yache berry for weak x4 

you have reson with 1 points ok your monkey have one habilty i admit this 

 

DRAGON >>>>>>>>>>>> MONKEY FIRE

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The viability gap between SD Garchomp and SD Infernape is so huge. Infernape is completely outclassed, it's not even close. In order to accomplish what Garchomp is capable of, Infernape needs 4 different items and 8 different moves. Garchomp only needs 1 single set to do exactly the same thing. Furthermore, I completely forgot to mention that Infernape stab moves have important drawbacks like Madara stated. 

 

 

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I gonna give you the info about one poke wchich can potentially kill yache berry garchomp 1x1 every time  with ease:

Spoiler
252 Atk Dragon Gem Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 186-222 (101.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Garchomp fits in the same offensive position Dragonite were 6 years ago. A dragon been bully.

 

Even been much more slow, Conkeldurr fits almost the same situation of chomp, it has very few checks if running right move. IF you dont have cofagrigus in your team, you probably have no safe switch-ins for any move Flame Orb conkeldurr have, thats it. Cofagrigus has more usage than high ammount of stuff and I agree he ha ve a lot more utilities, but mandibuzz does also have more uses than just try to wall garchomp.

 

iirc great amount of mons gonna get new tools which gonna shake the meta a little bit, chomp doest get acess to any shocking new tool if I recall correctly. Other mons gonna gain more offensive presence which can make chomp a bit less overwhelm.

 

 

Wait the next cycle and you guys probably can decde if it deserve a new thread of ban worthy questions.

 

 

 

Personally, as player I get embarass by watch this kind of miscomunication and/or disagree between TC members.


AFAIK you need to be indicated by other TC member to have a chance of been part of TC (don't know if ADMs have some participation)

You guys need a way to make new decisions by not only asking the community in discussions, but it could have a major rotation of TC members, aswell specifc TC members for each tier, which could make more sense and give better results.

 

The current policy is ok, but sometimes it needs to be refreshed so it doesnt have the seesaw effect;

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13 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

mmm immunity volt > immunity cause one will o wish possible miss and 2 garchomp possible play sub and 3 no have price in your teambuild you play one poke sweeper with immuty

elec you know this ^^

 

yes monkey fast but no bulky and ok but dragon have good coverage too

 

niceeee wide lens you op but if you play wide lens you no have your berry for move water no ? mmm fire fang have only 5% chance to miss and possible flinch i accept this risk

if i win at no play wide lens on my poke 

 

with my dragon i no force with eq when i have my stab dragon for fly poke ?

 

blaze kick possible miss and you lose your power but ok 

monkey no have 4 weakness yes you resist bro ! but you have full other weak and commun weak water ground psy ... AND if you play wide lens you dont resist move water xd

my dragon no miss no need lens he have yache berry for weak x4 

you have reson with 1 points ok your monkey have one habilty i admit this 

 

DRAGON >>>>>>>>>>>> MONKEY FIRE

yes volt immunity nice but garchomp one burn = useless but infernape one volt switch = not useless.  garchomp sub mean no fire fang = wall skarm.

 

monkey no bulk but fast and good coverage.  fight / fire / rock hit everything.  what it not hit?  also monkey with one sd = power to kill everything.  same like garchomp, no?

 

yes wide len mean no berry, but no need water berry for tenta because scald no kill in one turn.  yes less risk for garchomp because 95% accuracy, i admit.

 

eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, you dclaw into ferro rocky helmet, you fire fang or eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, then you not know whether to sd or dclaw or fire and then garchomp = dead because opp smart.  monkey just blaze kick = dead glisc and ferrothorn.

 

blaze also possible crit and burn, very nice.

 

monkey have other weakness yes, but if monkey carry psychic berry you run reuni = reuni dead.  if monkey run ground berry and you use eq = eq user dead.  you not know what berry monkey has, so what pokemon you send in vs monkey?  garchomp i know is lo or yache at least.

 

Infernape >>>>>>> Garchomp

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