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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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7 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I did not state- even once- in my entire post, that Chomp has "plenty" of counters. Pls Pachi don't put words I didn't say into my mouth.

Not saying you said, but none of the pokes you mentioned, apart of maybe p2 can effectively wall garchomp.

Edit: As an extra note, against offense, chomp doesn't need SD at all, it simply outright whatever is before it.

Again, I'm not saying it is or not banworthy, but I'd like to be serious about what people can or can't do against this thing

Edited by pachima
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3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

 

Bro you don't get it, if I get Garchomp in for free, set up for free and have the right moves for any wall my opponent has I can break past all of them and not die in one hit due to Yache berry.

Don't mention chip damage because I never let my Garchomp get chipped by anything. Revenge killing also doesn't count because I'm always at full and I'll live and take at least one mon with me.

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1 minute ago, suigin said:

Bro you don't get it, if I get Garchomp in for free, set up for free and have the right moves for any wall my opponent has I can break past all of them and not die in one hit due to Yache berry.

Don't mention chip damage because I never let my Garchomp get chipped by anything. Revenge killing also doesn't count because I'm always at full and I'll live and take at least one mon with me.

This translates to: "Garchomp broken? Haha, this is not serious... I'm going to laugh it off, pretend nothing is wrong and hopefully I will keep avoiding any tiering discussion."

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20 minutes ago, gbwead said:

This translates to: "Garchomp broken? Haha, this is not serious... I'm going to laugh it off, pretend nothing is wrong and hopefully I will keep avoiding any tiering discussion."

Uh no I'm just paraphrasing your hypothetical scenarios with Garchomp. Ones that occur only in a vacuum and never anywhere else.

Reminder that after we asked you to post replays in where Garchomp was able to get a sweep off without much counterplay in the TC Discord you combed through months of tournaments and only managed to list like 3-5 examples, one of which had a massive choke by the player who wasn't using Garchomp.

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29 minutes ago, suigin said:

Uh no I'm just paraphrasing your hypothetical scenarios with Garchomp. Ones that occur only in a vacuum and never anywhere else.

Reminder that after we asked you to post replays in where Garchomp was able to get a sweep off without much counterplay in the TC Discord you combed through months of tournaments and only managed to list like 3-5 examples, one of which had a massive choke by the player who wasn't using Garchomp.

What the actual fuck???? You asked me to find you replays. I spend a couple hours finding replays. I give you a list of replays. We discuss them and that's it. If you thought for half a second that I was going to spend even more time finding you duels, you are out of your mind. If you actually bothered playing this game, I wouldn't have to provide you with replays in the first place. That's not me choking, that's just you being lazy af.

 

I made a post discussing Garchomp thoroughly and you never bothered to reply, so don't give me that shit about paraphrasing hypothetical scenarios that only occur in a vacuum, that's disrespectful. If you don't agree with something I said, tell me what you don't agree with and why. If you don't want to discuss Garchomp, then don't. However, don't prevent others to do so by laughing off the discussion you don't want to take part in.

 

Edit:

Also, I just checked. There was a recent update at the time, so I was only able to look at the last 4 pages of tournaments to find replays since other tournaments were outdated. 4 pages represent something like 3 weeks.

29 minutes ago, suigin said:

you combed through months of tournaments and only managed to list like 3-5 examples

So this is bs.

Edited by gbwead
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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

What the actual fuck???? You asked me to find you replays. I spend a couple hours finding replays. I give you a list of replays. We discuss them and that's it. If you thought for half a second that I was going to spend even more time finding you duels, you are out of your mind. If you actually bothered playing this game, I wouldn't have to provide you with replays in the first place. That's not me choking, that's just you being lazy af.

 

I made a post discussing Garchomp thoroughly and you never bothered to reply, so don't give me that shit about paraphrasing hypothetical scenarios that only occur in a vacuum, that's disrespectful. If you don't agree with something I said, tell me what you don't agree with and why. If you don't want to discuss Garchomp, then don't. However, don't prevent others to do so by laughing off about the discussion you don't want to take part in.

When I mentioned the choking part I meant the player in the match you linked, not you.

 

I've played this game though, not as much as you since I've been pretty busy with work, but I've played enough in these past months and I've yet to see a single match in where Garchomp sets up and sweeps any easier than a mon like Reuniclus or Gyarados can.

Is it strong? Absolutely, is it the best mon in OU? Yes, in my opinion it is. Does it fit the criteria for offensive Uber or banworthy? Nope, in my experience I've seen players handle it just fine. And the amount of players who seem to support the idea of it being banworthy is much smaller than the ones who don't. And before you bring up your dumbshit dismissive reasoning of "oohh only bad players think it's not banworthy" you know damn well some of the players saying Garchomp isn't banworthy are pretty damn skillful (As are some of the ones who want it banned by the way, it's not a matter of "GOOD PLAYER WANT X BAD PLAYER DON'T WANT X").

 

And I'll continue to laugh at any reasoning that takes an uncommon scenario and makes it seem more commonplace than it actually is, maybe I'm just wrong, maybe my playstyle keeps Garchomp from setting up and sweeping me instantly while everyone else melts the second it comes in, but having watched other players as well I haven't encountered this.

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2 minutes ago, suigin said:

Is it strong? Absolutely, is it the best mon in OU? Yes, in my opinion it is. Does it fit the criteria for offensive Uber or banworthy? Nope, in my experience I've seen players handle it just fine. And the amount of players who seem to support the idea of it being banworthy is much smaller than the ones who don't. And before you bring up your dumbshit dismissive reasoning of "oohh only bad players think it's not banworthy" you know damn well some of the players saying Garchomp isn't banworthy are pretty damn skillful (As are some of the ones who want it banned by the way, it's not a matter of "GOOD PLAYER WANT X BAD PLAYER DON'T WANT X").

Even though I do believe a lot of bad players benefit tremendously from Garchomp being allowed in the tier, it's not what matters here. What matters is if these players have good judgement?  And the problem right now is that the vast majority of the good players that want Garchomp to stay OU have absolutely 0 judgement when it comes to tiering. There are a lot of good players that think Volcarona, Togekiss or Conkeldurr are banworthy in OU. The same players thought Staraptor and Mamoswine would be banworthy in UU. The same players that thought Zoroark and Houndoom would be banworthy in NU. And now these players even think Machamp is banworthy in NU. So, as harsh as this might sound, I do not value the brain dead popular opinion over the sensible opinion. 

 

23 minutes ago, suigin said:

I've played enough in these past months and I've yet to see a single match in where Garchomp sets up and sweeps any easier than a mon like Reuniclus or Gyarados can.

If that's the case, great. However, what am I supposed to do with that statement. There is nothing in there, it's just a story: "from my experience, I didn't see it as a problem". Where is the actual argument there? How did Garchomp not set up and sweep any easier than a mon like Reuniclus or Gyarados? That is what I would like to know. What did you see that prevented Garchomp from sweeping or set up with ease? I'm talking about Yache Berry SD Garchomp here. How was it checked, walled or handled from your experience?

 

From what I can see, both Reuniclus and Gyarados have very threatening viable checks, like Scizor and Rotom. What is the Garchomp check equivalent to Scizor for Reuniclus and Rotom for Gyarados? What check would be as solid and as viable?

 

From what I can see, both Reuniclus and Gyarados can also be countered by very viable walls in our metagame, like Milotic and Ferrothorn. Milotic walls Reuniclus extremely well. Ferrothorn walls Gyarados extremely well too. Both Milotic and Ferrothorn are also super viable in the current metagame. Imo, both Mandibuzz and Umbreon can wall Yache Berry Garchomp extremely well and also other kind of Chomp. Mandibuzz and Umbreon for me are as solid against Garchomp as Milotic is to Reuniclus and Ferrothorn is to Gyarados. However, when it comes to the viability of Umbreon and Mandibuzz, there is just no way they can be seen as viable as Milotic or Ferrothorn. I personally don't think they would be OU if it wasn't for Garchomp, but maybe you think otherwise.

 

With all that said, I truly would like to know you saw Garchomp handled.

 

53 minutes ago, suigin said:

And I'll continue to laugh at any reasoning that takes an uncommon scenario and makes it seem more commonplace than it actually is, maybe I'm just wrong, maybe my playstyle keeps Garchomp from setting up and sweeping me instantly while everyone else melts the second it comes in, but having watched other players as well I haven't encountered this.

What is your playstyle exactly? What team are you playing these days that prevents Garchomp from setting up and sweeping you instantly? From my experience, teams that fare well against Garchomp usually have some major exploitable flaws, more flaws than regular teams. Usually in offense, only rain teams do well against Garchomp. Is that what you are running?

 

 

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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

If that's the case, great. However, what am I supposed to do with that statement. There is nothing in there, it's just a story: "from my experience, I didn't see it as a problem". Where is the actual argument there? How did Garchomp not set up and sweep any easier than a mon like Reuniclus or Gyarados? That is what I would like to know. What did you see that prevented Garchomp from sweeping or set up with ease? I'm talking about Yache Berry SD Garchomp here. How was it checked, walled or handled from your experience?

I've seen it get handled by status, burns from Rotoms and Cofagrigus. chipped into a range where it could get revenge killed by either hazards or Rocky Helms, it not switching in and setting up for absolutely free, that's how Garchomp sweeps have been handled in my experience. I do not keep track with all of the scenarios but these come to mind and are realistic scenarios.

Quote

From what I can see, both Reuniclus and Gyarados can also be countered by very viable walls in our metagame, like Milotic and Ferrothorn. Milotic walls Reuniclus extremely well. Ferrothorn walls Gyarados extremely well too. Both Milotic and Ferrothorn are also super viable in the current metagame. Imo, both Mandibuzz and Umbreon can wall Yache Berry Garchomp extremely well and also other kind of Chomp. Mandibuzz and Umbreon for me are as solid against Garchomp as Milotic is to Reuniclus and Ferrothorn is to Gyarados. However, when it comes to the viability of Umbreon and Mandibuzz, there is just no way they can be seen as viable as Milotic or Ferrothorn. I personally don't think they would be OU if it wasn't for Garchomp, but maybe you think otherwise.

I feel like Mandibuzz is to Garchomp what Cofagrigus is to Conkeldurr, both have the same "fat mon with varying levels of utility but excels at dealing with one particular threat super well" vibe and the same way I feel like if Conk didn't exist Cofa would probably drop Mandi is probably the same in regards to Garchomp, it's not like people are using it as a super useless mon that has no purpose other than checking Garchomp. Umbreon, however does fit that niche of super useless mon that seems to have no purpose other than checking Garchomp, it had been used in OU for a while before Garchomp even entered the radar though a few years back and I feel like it may drop again eventually.

Quote

What is your playstyle exactly? What team are you playing these days that prevents Garchomp from setting up and sweeping you instantly? From my experience, teams that fare well against Garchomp usually have some major exploitable flaws, more flaws than regular teams. Usually in offense, only rain teams do well against Garchomp. Is that what you are running?

I've been running teams that focus on gaining momentum, stuff like Rotom, Infernape, Staraptor, Gengar, as well as varying forms of hazard stack, have kept me from getting rolled, a fast mon with u-turn and then a strong offensive move usually keeps Garchomp from sweeping me.

 

For the record I'll take a while for my next response if this continues, I have a deadline soon

Edited by suigin
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7 hours ago, suigin said:

I've seen it get handled by status, burns from Rotoms and Cofagrigus.

In the case of Rotom, it's important to keep in mind that Rotom has to switch in front of Garchomp, take the risk of missing Wil-O-Wisp and then it has to switch out in order to stay alive. Garchomp does enough damage prior to getting burned that Rotom is in range of getting killed despite Garchomp being burned. This means Rotom Bold is a good pivot against Garchomp only if you run another physical wall or very bulky pokemon that can take a second hit. Offense and balance rarely have enough room for one physical wall, so expecting to run two is unrealistic imo.

 

Regarding Cofagrigus, it is a way more solid check than Rotom and can wall Subless Garchomp. There is still significant risk involved with running Cofagrigus against Chomp, but it does stop the Yache Berry set, so it's okay I guess.

 

7 hours ago, suigin said:

chipped into a range where it could get revenge killed by either hazards or Rocky Helms, it not switching in and setting up for absolutely free, that's how Garchomp sweeps have been handled in my experience.

This part makes no sense. If you're trying to revenge kill Garchomp, that means Garchomp is already on the field. If Garchomp is already on the field, it won't be affected by hazards. Perhaps you meant that revenge killing is more easy after Garchomp gets chipped by hazards. Aside from stuff like Reuniclus that is immune to hazards, I don't believe Garchomp is particularly weak to hazards compared to other mons that have been uber in the past. 

 

7 hours ago, suigin said:

I feel like Mandibuzz is to Garchomp what Cofagrigus is to Conkeldurr, both have the same "fat mon with varying levels of utility but excels at dealing with one particular threat super well" vibe and the same way I feel like if Conk didn't exist Cofa would probably drop Mandi is probably the same in regards to Garchomp, it's not like people are using it as a super useless mon that has no purpose other than checking Garchomp. Umbreon, however does fit that niche of super useless mon that seems to have no purpose other than checking Garchomp, it had been used in OU for a while before Garchomp even entered the radar though a few years back and I feel like it may drop again eventually.

Imo, you are completely mistaken when it comes to Cofagrigus. It's not used only for Conkeldurr, but also for Scizor a mon even more played than Conkeldurr itself. Cofagrigus would never drop to UU even if Conkeldurr vanished from OU. The only reason it was ever UU was because Mummy wasn't implemented. Furthermore, you said yourself that Cofagrigus is good against Garchomp, so it goes without saying that Cofagrigus really would never drop to UU is Conkeldurr wasn't around. 

 

So there are two options here:

1. Cofagrigus either sucks, can serve as a mediocre check to Garchomp and would never be OU if it wasn't for Conkeldurr

2. Cofagrigus is awesome and can counter/check the three most used pokemons in the tier (Garchomp, Scizor and Conkeldurr)

 

If you choose option 1, well Garchomp would then become in your eye an even bigger threat than before. If you choose option 2, Conkeldurr should never again be mentioned as a potential uber mon because its biggest counter is extremely solid and also has ton of utility in the tier. I realise we should be talking about Garchomp and not Conkeldurr, but since you brought up Conkeldurr and bringing up Conkeldurr seem to be a "go to digression" when discussing Garchomp, I felt it was important to close that parenthesis once and for all.

 

Anyhow, we will have more to discuss when it comes to Mandibuzz and Umbreon viability following the upcoming update. 

 

7 hours ago, suigin said:

I've been running teams that focus on gaining momentum, stuff like Rotom, Infernape, Staraptor, Gengar, as well as varying forms of hazard stack, have kept me from getting rolled, a fast mon with u-turn and then a strong offensive move usually keeps Garchomp from sweeping me.

 

For the record I'll take a while for my next response if this continues, I have a deadline soon

I find that very surprising since hazard stacking is probably significantly less viable than before because of the addition of Rotom. Good luck with your deadline.

 

Edited by gbwead
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What I gathered:

 

1 - Some random claimed Gyarados was able to sweep easier than Garchomp. Was that a joke too?

2 - Burn stops Garchomp (CLAP CLAP). Sadly No burning pokemons have reliable recovery and are therefore way too susceptible to be badly hurt in the process of switching in. (Oh, and chomp can sub too, but that's ok, our recover infiltrator wow mon in MMO deals with that easily)

3 - Imagine thinking cofa is used for solely conk, and forgetting its the best thing against mienshao (For conk? Meh).

1 hour ago, suigin said:

I've been running teams that focus on gaining momentum, stuff like Rotom, Infernape, Staraptor, Gengar, as well as varying forms of hazard stack, have kept me from getting rolled, a fast mon with u-turn and then a strong offensive move usually keeps Garchomp from sweeping me.

So this means that you lose one mon before you are able to revenge kill Garchomp, right? And before you claim that you can outplay, let's not forget the opponent "shouldn't" be Misty from Vermilion.

4- @gbwead don't even try to argue. This guy will simply refuse to read other ppl's opinions, and laugh himself off, albeit not sure what he is laughing at. 

Extra points for fun: You know what that useless ass mon named Umbreon that is used just for Garchomp can do? Let me explain, it can counter Gyarados even under rocks in their side, imagine countering a mon that sweeps easier than Garchomp.

Extra points x2: But hey, not all is bad. You get a point. Garchomp, can't, in fact, set up for free, or switch for free, everytime it wants so, and this is probably why I' on the fence on this thing. However, you are also assuming Garchomp is chipped, and if I'm not mistaken, unless you happen to possess the correct wall in your team 100% of the time, the only way you can chip garchomp is by having a faster u-turn on the field BEFORE Garchomp switches in, anything else and this little draco is able to get a kill somewhere.

TLDR; I don't mind you sharing your opinions, I'd actually like to see them, but you don't simply claim to play this, outright state Garchomp isn't sweeping easier than Gyarados (Albeit you are right with reuni, maybe), posting a completely random team (as well as VARIOUS forms of hazard stack) that aren't able to pressure rotom-w in any form, that doesn't have a volt blocker in any form, and that are all 1v1 by Garchomp (in any form).

Tip: If you want to be successful here, focus in the part that I said you have a point (Garchomp can't do anything for free). But do not try to forget that Garchomp's user has a brain too, and is not forced to SD just because.

You could also ignore me, like you always do, but that's up to you.

 

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Oh I forgot there is a big update coming up very soon which might shake our meta quite a bit, and I just realised that this entire discussion might be getting outdated after the changes. But idk I didn't analyse the situation of chomp in post-update meta, but regardless, I'd hold with arguing until the meta will settle after update. 

Edited by RysPicz
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2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Oh I forgot there is a big update coming up very soon which might shake our meta quite a bit, and I just realised that this entire discussion might be getting outdated after the changes. But idk I didn't analyse the situation of chomp in post-update meta, but regardless, I'm hołd with arguing until the meta will settle after update. 

No worries, it won't change anything at all xD Like these changes will clearly make offense overall better but doesn't add up new ways to control or revenge kill Garchomp in particular

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1 minute ago, TohnR said:

No worries, it won't change anything at all xD Like these changes will clearly make offense overall better but doesn't add up new ways to control or revenge kill Garchomp in particular

just some pokes will change, the very big update will be with h.a mons, which gonna happen in 20 years prob

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I've been lurking for a while but this whole Garchomp discussion has been rustling my jimmies, I can't take no more!

 

The main argument I'm seeing against Garchomp is that it doesn't completely fit the standards of an offensive Uber. I'd argue that this is the wrong way of looking at it. It's true that Garchomp doesn't fit in the Offensive uber characteristics. But, like many non-legendary Ubers, Garchomp seems to somewhat fit multiple Uber criteria. Garchomp, when used correctly, is an unprecedented offensive threat, it makes the tier less competitive and is heavily centralizing.

 

Characteristics of an offensive Uber

There is one Garchomp set I want to focus one. Jolly with Yache Berry and SD, Dclaw, EQ and Fire Fang. This set is so ridiculous because it can 2HKO every Pokémon (except two highly specific mons) with just a Swords Dance.

'But StinkNice' you say 'there are so many Pokemon that can 2HKO many Pokemon after a SD'

You are correct, my overused narration device. The single thing that makes Garchomp different though, is it's troll base speed of 102. Meaning it can often dish out two hits, before being hit twice itself. On top of that it has one of the best dual typings in the game, gaining a 102 base speed STAB EQ. This set is so completely offensively broken that there are only two defensive Pokémon that can reliably deal with this set. Don't believe me?

Spoiler

These calcs are made with the following assumptions.

1. Perfect Pokémon

2. Stealth Rock up on both sides (which is fair to assume in like 90% of the matches)

3. Garchomp forcing a switch and going for a SD. (Really easy to do with 102 base speed and being a freaking landshark).

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-400 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 94-112 (60.2 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

One of the defensive Pokemon that can somewhat 'beat' Garchomp, except if Sand is up.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
'Techinically' Skarmory can kill a Garchomp with Counter, if Garchomp damages it by 92, which will happen around 50% of the time. But that's not the only problem with Skarmory. Because if it has Counter, Garchomp will force a 50/50 on the Skarmory. Even then, Skarmory will have to run a highly specific set: Counter, Whirlwind, SR, ???. Greatly reducing the efficiency of Skarmory as a defensive wall. So to call Skarmory a reliable way to beat Garchomp is a massive stretch.
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A highly specific Mon that can semi-reliably beat Garchomp.

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 109-130 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 56-68 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 84-100 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 52-62 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 24.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (81.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 86-102 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 96-114 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (91.8 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only defensive Pokémon that can beat Garchomp every time, together with Umbreon. Two highly specific Pokémon for the OU meta.

So if you manage to switch in Garchomp (not hard to do with a slow U-turn or Volt Switch), your opponent is almost guaranteed to lose a Pokémon unless they run Mandibuzz or Umbreon. I'll repeat. Garchomp will almost always force the opponent to lose a Pokémon unless they use Mons that are supposed to be in UU. When a Pokémon can so reliably delete Pokémon, with minimal support (Stealth Rocks) it certainly fits some of the offensive Uber criteria.


But let's look at some offensive checks that can deal with Garchomp. An offensive check would of course need to switch in on a predicted move it can take, or a set up move like Swords Dance.

Spoiler
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-211 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

  Woops its dead

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 120-143 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Woops its dead

 

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Woops its dead

 

B-but choice scarf Mamo:

252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 152-182 (82.6 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I could go on but I'll save you the trouble. The only three Pokémon that can reliably check Garchomp when switching in on a Swords Dance or ineffective move are Choice Band Weavile, Scarf Hydreigon and Scarf Salamence (having to lock itself into Draco Meteor).

 

'But ThinkDumb, you stupid oaf. I can just revenge kill it after it has killed a Pokémon'

How delightful, you can attempt to kill Garchomp after it has already fulfilled its purpose.

 

Competitiveness and centralization

A Pokémon that has so little reliable counters and checks and is so easy to throw on any team, is bound to be centralizing and uncompetitive. Uncompetitive in the sense that it doesn't take any skill to play this Pokémon. If your opponent does not have a Mandibuzz, you are highly likely to just outright delete an opposing Pokémon by clicking Swords Dance. It is simply ludicrous. Centralizing in the sense that you have freaking Mandibuzz in OU, and the fact that it makes balanced offense teams extremely bad in OU. Your only real competitive options in OU would be highly offensive or very defensive. That doesn't sound like a healthy competitive metagame to me.

 

But I'll leave you with these final thoughts. Garchomp has been a menacing force in every generation is has been in. In DPP OU, it was banned. Not only because of Sand Veil, but because of all the points I made above. And consider this, DPP OU actually had more checks to Garchomp than we do in MMO, like Scarf Jirachi, Outrage Flygon, Latias, Suicune, and Crescelia. Even in BW OU, with every hidden ability and updated moves and legendaries in OU, Garchomp is still A+ ranked.

 

Now try to justify this monster in MMO OU where we are missing many of these tools.

Edited by ThinkNicer
DPP OU had no Magic Guard zam or Reg Slowbro, my bad
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