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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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24 minutes ago, gbwead said:

enumeré 15 mons, vamos ahora

I am not complaining about azumarrill by itself I am complaining if it is in a screen team so let's see that although the 15 pokemon you mentioned can be a problem for azumarrill normally with the help of screens none assures you a 0KO while it sucks if it will also do with a suitable set neither jellicent nor vaporeon nor ferroseed will be a real problem

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Gastrodon was never a counter to Azumarill since Gastrodon gets OHKO by Return. If you want to counter/check Azumarill, run stuff like Rotom-Mow, Toxicroak, Leafeon, Jellicent with Protect, Ludicolo, Venusaur, Defensive Roserade, Full Speed Abomasnow, Victreebel, Exeggutor, Whimsicott, Offensive Vaporeon, Ferroseed, fast and bulky Porygon2, etc. There are just way too many answers. 

 

3 minutes ago, urquidi said:

I am not complaining about azumarrill by itself I am complaining if it is in a screen team so let's see that although the 15 pokemon you mentioned can be a problem for azumarrill normally with the help of screens none assures you a 0KO while it sucks if it will also do with a suitable set neither jellicent nor vaporeon nor ferroseed will be a real problem

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 115-136 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dead by rocks and sitrus recovery 
 
Leafeon can use reflect and survive any non ice punch azumarill (Unless azumarill runs 452 moves)
 
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 130-154 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Poof dead
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 109-130 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
 
Dead by hail and rocks after sitrus damage
 
I could keep on going, but you know its pointless. Most of those can, in fact, ohko azuma that belly drums, while under screens. (unless, of course, your azumarill has z-belly drum)
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6 minutes ago, pachima said:

 

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill a través de la pantalla de luz: 115-136 (65.3 - 77.2%) - garantizado 2HKO
Muerto por rocas y recuperación de sitrus 
 
Leafeon puede usar reflexionar y sobrevivir a cualquier azumarill sin golpe de hielo (a menos que azumarill ejecute 452 movimientos)
 
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill a través de la pantalla de luz: 130-154 (73.8 - 87.5%) - garantizado 2HKO
Poof muerto
 
252 Especificaciones SpA Choice Abomasnow Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill a través de la pantalla de luz: 109-130 (61.9 - 73.8%) - garantizado 2HKO después del daño por granizo
 
Muerto por granizo y rocas después del daño del sitrus
 
Podría seguir, pero sabes que no tiene sentido. La mayoría de ellos puede, de hecho, ohko azuma que tamborilea, mientras está debajo de las pantallas. (a menos que, por supuesto, su azumarill tenga tambor z-belly)

I never really saw an abomasnow choice specs from rotom-wow if I saw that it would be the best against roserade and other pokes would you take them home team to stop an azuma? especially knowing that there are pokes in the tier that would not let them survive or do a good job?

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By the way, before people start shifting their focus from Azumarill to Linoone, only because they realized in this thread that there are more mons than only UU in UU, let me elaborate a list of those who can stop a drummed linoone UNDER SCREENS.

- Durant

-Metagross 

-Forretress

-Porygon2

-Torkoal*

-Gligar

-Steelix

-Spiritomb

-Magneton *

-Mismagius *

- Aggron

 

Gimmicks/Not that viable, but that are worth a mention.

 

-Armaldo

-Mawile

-Bastiodon

-Rotom normal *

-Crustle *

-Escavalier

 

* Are mons that can, in fact, beat linoone, but are reliant or rolls, item, whatever.

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Hace 1 minuto, gbwead dijo:

wtf es este azumarill con 700 ev en velocidad y 8 movelots

I am not saying that I beat velfefe but on screens it can take a hit from this easily I think you forgot that all the time I mean that it is protected by screens to sweep
And return is a very typical move in azuma so I don't know why the joke

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8 minutes ago, urquidi said:

I never really saw an abomasnow choice specs from rotom-wow if I saw that it would be the best against roserade and other pokes would you take them home team to stop an azuma? especially knowing that there are pokes in the tier that would not let them survive or do a good job?

Roserade is actually good in the tier, just like some of the other mons(Ones better than other ofc).  Abomasnow can simply pick orb and run a stronger move (wood hammer). 

Additional data. I mentioned reflect on leafeon. (Which makes me reach the next point)

Double additional data: Its funny how people think screens are a one-side battle. Protip: opposing team can set up screens too.

Triple additional data: Defog clears screens. As a bonus, whimsicott outspeeds electrode when defogging.

 

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Justo ahora, Pachima dijo:

Roserade es realmente bueno en el nivel, al igual que algunos de los otros mons (unos mejores que otros ofc). Abomasnow simplemente puede elegir orbe y ejecutar un movimiento más fuerte (martillo de madera). 

Datos adicionales. Mencioné reflexionar sobre leafeon. (Lo que me hace llegar al siguiente punto)

Doble información adicional: es curioso cómo la gente piensa que las pantallas son una batalla de un solo lado. Protip: el equipo contrario también puede configurar pantallas.

Datos adicionales triples: desempañar borra las pantallas. Como beneficio adicional, Whimsicott supera el electrodo cuando desempaña.

 

I get it but as I said earlier there are pokes that you are going to use all the time or in all the teams just to stop this combination of screens and if you try to cope but the rival ssle you with a different team you even get to be at a disadvantage

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1 minute ago, urquidi said:

I am not saying that I beat velfefe but on screens it can take a hit from this easily I think you forgot that all the time I mean that it is protected by screens to sweep
And return is a very typical move in azuma so I don't know why the joke

Return is common yes, but superpower and ice punch, not at all.

 

As for screens, if you don't bother removing them or take advantage of turns spent to place them on the field, then it your problem. We have Mamoswine in the tier for a reason afterall.

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3 minutes ago, urquidi said:

I get it but as I said earlier there are pokes that you are going to use all the time or in all the teams just to stop this combination of screens and if you try to cope but the rival ssle you with a different team you even get to be at a disadvantage

This happens everywhere, so I really dont see the issue.

If enemy brings a bulk up conkeldurr in OU, and your team doesn't possess cofagrigus or one of the other few reliant counters for it, Conkeldurr sweeps you. Is conkeldurr broken?

No, its called matchup. Something that grew worse in every gen and there is nothing we can do (Even TCs). We are no longer in gen 0.5, where awful matchups rarely happen, this is gen 5,5 where half battles are decided by matchups, and where you have to try your best to either pray you are on the good side of it, or reduce the awfulness of the situation.

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11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

As for screens, if you don't bother removing them or take advantage of turns spent to place them on the field, then it your problem. We have Mamoswine in the tier for a reason afterall.

How do you take advantage of this when electrode has taunt?  Brick Break can be used to gain momentum, but if you take a static para, you're pretty much screwed then.  Mamo going to Electrode isn't really taking advantage of those turns because it's not like the Mamo user is then in a position to sweep.

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9 minutes ago, pachima said:

Esto sucede en todas partes, así que realmente no veo el problema.

Si el enemigo trae un conkeldurr a granel en OU, y tu equipo no posee cofagrigus o uno de los pocos contadores dependientes para ello, Conkeldurr te barre. ¿Está roto el conkeldurr?

No, se llama enfrentamiento. Algo que empeoró en cada generación y no hay nada que podamos hacer (incluso los TC). Ya no estamos en la generación 0.5, donde rara vez ocurren enfrentamientos horribles, esta es la generación 5,5, donde la mitad de las batallas se deciden por enfrentamientos, y donde tienes que hacer todo lo posible para rezar para que estés en el lado bueno o reducir Lo horrible de la situación.

but even if conkeldurr is powerful in front of a team or any other pokemon, it does not mean that getting it out of the first place, the duel is over, it takes a strategy to make it destroy the rival while the combination of screens lacks it, simply electrode enters, puts screens and takes out a booster and if it doesn't work repeat there is no strategy in it at least it is my opinion

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The problem of the screens is that the same pokemon does not walle you to the 4 pokes that are boosted, the case of vaporeon can control you to scrafty and azumarill, but when faced with a linoone or a venomoth, it almost always opens a hole in the team to sweep, I'm not saying it is invincible, but it is a broken team, and the counters they put up are very elaborate pokes, Ferroseed in uu? , that leads you to take things out of tier to count them, that screen team centralizes all the UU meta.

Edited by Dartlex
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3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

How do you take advantage of this when electrode has taunt?  Brick Break can be used to gain momentum, but if you take a static para, you're pretty much screwed then.  Mamo going to Electrode isn't really taking advantage of those turns because it's not like the Mamo user is then in a position to sweep.

Hitmonlee have limber brick breaks.

Whimsicott is faster than trode while taunting/defogging

Mamoswine can have a free rocks or sub. It can also whirlwind.

Protect can stall turns

Fake out can stall turns

A scarf can ohko electrode before it moves.

Dugtrio will be able to trap electrode and stall turns at the same time.

Frost breath is a thing. Storm throw is another thing. Any phazing works too. (And some arent tauntable)

The strategy is good, it sure is annoying, but broken? Not really. The same can be done with screens and belly drummers in NU, and trust me there are better bdrummers there. 

Also take in mind that trode + belly drummers were in this game for years before some smart guy decided to inovate and use them in UU. This is how mmo teambuilding works. One day or another ppl will find another "broken" annoying stuff and people will complain. IF this was that broken, it would be spammed day 1 or 2 and not years later.

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12 minutes ago, urquidi said:

 simply electrode enters, puts screens and takes out a booster and if it doesn't work repeat there is no strategy in it at least it is my opinion

Are you saying your opponent not only lets Electrode sets BOTH screens for free the first time, but they also let you repeat the process if at the first time it doesn't work? 

Last time I checked electrode has 0 recovery in that set. Last time I checked u need 3 turns to set up your game, in where I assume the opponent isn't afking and staring at nurse joy. But you expect a good opponent to give you those free turns for free not only once but repeated times?  I don't know what people are doing, but I'm starting to miss the old days where durant hone claws a espeon that is in recharging turn via hyper beam, to be outsped the next turn and die.

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Just now, pachima said:

Hitmonlee have limber brick breaks.

Whimsicott is faster than trode while taunting/defogging

Mamoswine can have a free rocks or sub. It can also whirlwind.

Protect can stall turns

Fake out can stall turns

A scarf can ohko electrode before it moves.

Dugtrio will be able to trap electrode and stall turns at the same time.

Frost breath is a thing. Storm throw is another thing. Any phazing works too. (And some arent tauntable)

The strategy is good, it sure is annoying, but broken? Not really. The same can be done with screens and belly drummers in NU, and trust me there are better bdrummers there. 

Also take in mind that trode + belly drummers were in this game for years before some smart guy decided to inovate and use them in UU. This is how mmo teambuilding works. One day or another ppl will find another "broken" annoying stuff and people will complain. IF this was that broken, it would be spammed day 1 or 2 and not years later.

1) Hitmonlee is also absolutely shit because it offers no defensive utility to your team.
2) If Whimsicott switches on the turn screens are used, I fail to see how it abuses electrode because the Electrode user then just goes to Venomoth and Whimsicott is forced into a 50/50 because it will not encore if Venomoth attacks that turn.  

3) Sub Mamo is nice.

4) Name me some mons in UU that actually is Protect.  I don't think I will ever see an offensive team running protect.  Protect also does fuck all if your opponent sets up the turn you use protect or switches into the set up mon.

5) Medicham is probs the only viable Fake Out user, and what precisely is it going to fake out? Electrode? It can take a static para, and I will agree that it is still threatening to those teams.

6) Dugtrio will not be able to stall turns.  The Electrode user taunts Dugtrio, and it will then be forced to attack.  At max you eliminate 2-3 turns.  Then when your Dugtrio is locked on EQ under reflect, it allows something else to easily set up.

 

You don't seem to realize that it's not the individual mons that are broken, but it's the combination.  Your Leafeon may be able to handle one of Azumarill or Linoone, but it probably won't be able to take them both on.  This requires players to build teams that have a counter for almost each mon that screens team has.  

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11 minutes ago, pachima said:

¿Estás diciendo que tu oponente no solo permite que Electrode establezca AMBAS pantallas tanto la primera vez como gratis, sino que también te permite repetir el proceso si al principio no funciona? 

La última vez que verifiqué que el electrodo tiene 0 de recuperación en ese conjunto. La última vez que revisé necesitas 3 turnos para configurar tu juego, en el que supongo que el oponente no está hablando mal y mirando a la enfermera alegría. ¿Pero esperas que un buen oponente te dé esos turnos gratis gratis no solo una vez sino repetidas veces? No sé lo que la gente está haciendo, pero estoy empezando a extrañar los viejos tiempos en los que la piedra de afilar dura un espeon que está en recarga a través de un rayo de luz, para ser superado en el siguiente turno y morir.

I am not saying that you let it do it as if nothing if not what is the basic principle when using that combination if you take out that combination if or if it will be your strategy to put the screens and later booster if there is how to stop them and obviously you will try but if you do not have a good against you will simply be defeated

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15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

1) Hitmonlee is also absolutely shit because it offers no defensive utility to your team.
2) If Whimsicott switches on the turn screens are used, I fail to see how it abuses electrode because the Electrode user then just goes to Venomoth and Whimsicott is forced into a 50/50 because it will not encore if Venomoth attacks that turn.  

3) Sub Mamo is nice.

4) Name me some mons in UU that actually is Protect.  I don't think I will ever see an offensive team running protect.  Protect also does fuck all if your opponent sets up the turn you use protect or switches into the set up mon.

5) Medicham is probs the only viable Fake Out user, and what precisely is it going to fake out? Electrode? It can take a static para, and I will agree that it is still threatening to those teams.

6) Dugtrio will not be able to stall turns.  The Electrode user taunts Dugtrio, and it will then be forced to attack.  At max you eliminate 2-3 turns.  Then when your Dugtrio is locked on EQ under reflect, it allows something else to easily set up.

 

You don't seem to realize that it's not the individual mons that are broken, but it's the combination.  Your Leafeon may be able to handle one of Azumarill or Linoone, but it probably won't be able to take them both on.  This requires players to build teams that have a counter for almost each mon that screens team has.  

1- Hitmonlee has 110 base spdef. A good speedtier, and good matchup vs most mons used in that team. (Also speaking of no defensive utility, I fail to see a good defensive core in the "broken team. Abuse that"

2- Whimsi has psychic. It can switcheroo some macho brace. it can tailwind for a sweeper to come in and be faster than veno. Come on.  (Oh, it can also screens, what about that?)

3- Ok

4- Those are how predictions usually work

5- Kangaskhan? Ambipom? 

6- Mental herb is a thing. If not mental then it has a sash on its belt which gives it enough time to severely cripple any sweeper that might come in. But then I agree with this point.

One last note: Set up team is forced to set up to win. There is no plan B, no plan C, no safe option. They are forced to set up to win. Even if you can do it once, you are deying a lot of what that team provides. 

You can argue that its "skilless team, and that is not fully competitive, and I might agree with that. But a broken team shouldn't, imo, possess this many flaws, to be considered broken. If people are using teams that are swept by it, it's their problem.

 

EDIT: to add on this, none of the above were what I originally considered "set up team counters. I legit took 30 minutes to do research and find further options than the ones I currently have under my belt (And there are quite a lot, and more effective than these), and that for obvious reasons, wont be here revealing them. I'm pretty sure there will be more exploits if people actually start finding for them, instead of waiting a team to fall from the heavens.

Edited by pachima
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Just now, pachima said:

1- Hitmonlee has 110 base spdef. A good speedtier, and good matchup vs most mons used in that team. (Also speaking of no defensive utility, I fail to see a good defensive core in the "broken team. Abuse that"

2- Whimsi has psychic. It can switcheroo some macho brace. it can tailwind for a sweeper to come in and be faster than veno. Come on.  (Oh, it can also screens, what about that?)

3- Ok

4- Those are how predictions usually work

5- Kangaskhan? Ambipom? 

6- Mental herb is a thing. If not mental then it has a sash on its belt which gives it enough time to severely cripple any sweeper that might come in. But then I agree with this point.

One last note: Set up team is forced to set up to win. There is no plan B, no plan C, no safe option. They are forced to set up to win. Even if you can do it once, you are deying a lot of what that team provides. 

You can argue that its "skilless team, and that is not fully competitive, and I might agree with that. But a broken team shouldn't, imo, possess this many flaws, to be considered broken. If people are using teams that are swept by it, it's their problem.

1) Hitmonlee has a base HP of 50 and base physical defense of 53.  It's hardly going to ever come into a physical attack.  It may be good vs screens teams, but it's probably bad vs other kind of playstyles.  What's the hitmonlee usage even in NU?  Or are you going to tell me that people are dumb or are sleeping on it?

2) Please explain how whimsicott safely psychics the veno.  It will probably take a bug buzz before that depending on the speed.  Macho brace reduces its speed by half, and that same mon is perfectly capable of boosting its speed again.  Tailwind for a sweeper doesn't work properly either because you'll have to make sure that said sweeper is able to then ohko Scrafty or Veno under reflect.  

4) What's Kangaskhan / Ambipom usage in UU?  Both of them use Fake Out, and then what? 

5) Yeah you know what else is a thing? Red Card, but these are not items you fix on a standard team but as a counter measure to a specific kind of team or strategy.

 

Yeah a set up team is forced to set up to win, but if you can't deny it setting up then what's the point?  A baton pass team also requires set-up to win and passing stat boosts is banned.

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19 minutes ago, pachima said:

Hitmonlee have limber brick breaks. - I kinda like the idea on the surface, but I feel like Lee is a tad frail, so itll get 2ohko or ohko when its trying to reset the screens, also mons like venomoth can just come in and take advantage of it. But Im still a fan, especially since you can gain fake out support, decent move pool. It does pull into question that when lee inevitably gets 0hko'd 2ohko'd whats your game plan friend?

Whimsicott is faster than trode while taunting/defogging - Cool in theory, it does give mons like veno the free switch in, risks switching in on electrodes taunt (im bad okay)  Imo the best solution you've presented though

Mamoswine can have a free rocks or sub. It can also whirlwind. - Trading off rocks for screens isnt a huge revelation that makes screen teams fall apart, sub and whirlwind is... unique, but takes up move slots mamo is going to really want to have. What set are we talking sub whirlwind eq rocks? No thanks

Protect can stall turns - 100% true, also gives them a free turn of set up, enjoy that one less turn of screens while I enjoy a +1 venomoth or hell a +6 linoone

Fake out can stall turns - Fair, you can often play around set up sweepers with fake out support, only issue is that a lot of the time it involves sacking mons just to prevent the sweep. Not a fan of having to resort to Flinch 'n Sack, though I guess you could technically minimize this without outplays, at great risk. We've also already seen things like linoone run protect, so yeah...

A scarf can ohko electrode before it moves. - Situational I suppose, mostly feels like 2ohkos from my personal experience, but maybe Im using the wrong scarfers, also youd need to have your scarfer in vs electrode, switching in on a turn it goes for reflect/light screen often will mean both screens are here to stay Also being scarf locked can grant free set up, so has its risks

Dugtrio will be able to trap electrode and stall turns at the same time. - Im interested to see how duggy does, I fear its just going to help improve screen teams with memento support, trapping checks you mentioned earlier (Doesnt need to kill them necessarily, since most of those mons do not have access to recovery it just needs to do about 20-50% not including rock damage

Frost breath is a thing. Storm throw is another thing. Any phazing works too. (And some arent tauntable) - Those moves are things yes, the mons that run those moves do in fact exist, are they the most viable mons for the uu tier? Probably not, you'd get away with it sure, but you'd probably be kicking yourself when your throh just isnt putting in the work. Also in general, you can read which mon will be able to carry this move, so sure you can bring storm throw, venomoth really wont care. Sure you can bring frost breath, but will azu care? For phazing, again usually super smart for taking care of set up. Well except for moves like taunt. AHA! BUT WHAT ABOUT DRAGON TAIL NERD! Well, we are seeing a lot of sub disable venomoths, ignoring the fact that sub stops dragon tail effects, it can just be disabled out of there

The strategy is good, it sure is annoying, but broken? Not really. The same can be done with screens and belly drummers in NU, and trust me there are better bdrummers there. 

Also take in mind that trode + belly drummers were in this game for years before some smart guy decided to inovate and use them in UU. This is how mmo teambuilding works. One day or another ppl will find another "broken" annoying stuff and people will complain. IF this was that broken, it would be spammed day 1 or 2 and not years later.

tl;dr on the surface yeah, these screen teams aren't nigh indestructible, there are plenty of ways to stop that +6 linoone from sweeping, or that dastardly venomoth from getting to +6, but the resources youre having to commit to do so can be increasingly problematic to the rest of the battle. And whilst certain niche ideas like brick break lee or sub whirlwind mamo? can maybe present a solution, their sustain/capability just isnt enough. I mentioned it a little when I talked about duggy, its impact on screen teams is either gonna make or break them for me. Either its going to do as you say and stop trode from setting up and everyone can be happy, or alternatively, its going to just bolster the power of screen teams by trapping (doesnt need to kill, just damage) the checks to a +6 linoone, or your qd venomoth. Like a lot of the people are saying, its not one individual mon that makes these teams so dangerous, but the team as a whole

I'm sure theres a lot of holes in my logic, and that I poorly worded everything, but theres my 2 cents

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42 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

How do you take advantage of this when electrode has taunt?  Brick Break can be used to gain momentum, but if you take a static para, you're pretty much screwed then.  Mamo going to Electrode isn't really taking advantage of those turns because it's not like the Mamo user is then in a position to sweep.

Mamoswine doesn't get taunted, can place rocks and nothing can set up for free on Mamoswine even with screens on. 

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Mamoswine doesn't get taunted, can place rocks and nothing can set up for free on Mamoswine even with screens on. 

Mamo switches into Electrode, the Electrode user then goes to Rotom, and then they can Volt Switch / Overheat / Double Switch?  That doesn't really sound foolproof to me.

Edited by NikhilR
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