Rakhmaninov Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) Doubles Team Building Frameworks This guide suggests common structures to successful teams. If you are new to the doubles format, or are stuck on where to go next in your team building, then this is the guide for you! The following frameworks are deduced from teams used in tournament finals to demonstrate their structural validity. Less common team archetypes, such as Sand and “TopMoth” have not seen enough tournament success to merit their own frameworks - yet. This article works in tandem with both the viability rankings and double battles competitive guide Disclaimer: Spoiler These frameworks are suggestive and not final, as they are subject to update; peripheral team roles become looser suggestions. The current Doubles metagame does not contain many over-centralizing Pokemon (a sign of a well-balanced metagame), so most teams contain a plethora of balanced or “good-stuff” Pokemon, and thus don’t necessarily follow a set structure. These frameworks, however, are representative of teams which do follow a central archetype, and are generally fewer in number than frameworks found in other over-centralised metagames (e.g Gen 7 Doubles OU) Set Up @Zigh (Community Combat #192/189, Jelly Reunion) @guilleex (CC #194) BiliBiliBiltian (The Round Angel) & @Imabetheverybest1 (The Fat Samourai) Akuaayiyahei (CC #192) @RickyPoke (CC #196) 1: Garchomp/Set Up: Garchomp is arguably the best sweeper in Doubles. It can easily Swords Dance with the help of redirection support with access to Earthquake and Dragon Claw as STABs. Snorlax is used on Rickypoke's team as a secondary set up to Kingdra, as it can provide a powerful means of offense with a belly drum set up, especially when under Trick Room (Reuniclus was used over Metagross in Rickypoke's semifinal match) 2: Blastoise: Access to both Fake Out and Follow Me, with great bulk and a great support movepool 3: Kingdra/Support: Kingdra sees the most usage here, as it can provide a fantastic means of set up in "Critdra". Smeargle is a very interesting addition to Akuaayiyahei’s team, as it has access to every move in the game, making it incredibly difficult to predict (notably: spore/fake out/follow me/transform/wide guard etc). 4: Secondary Redirection: Togekiss sees the most usage here, as it is immune to Earthquake and has an insane support movepool to aid all team members. Amoonguss also sees usage here as it can put enemies to sleep with spore. 5: Reuniclus/Metagross: As well as dealing with Hitmontop, Reuniclus can set up Trick Room or Calm Mind/Acid Armor as an alternative source of offense. Metagross sees usage here as it resists Ice/Dragon, two of Garchomp/Kingdra’s biggest weaknesses. It is very flexible, able to provide bulk (e.g substitute+leftovers), and offense (e.g Explosion as a late game clean-up, as seen in Rickypoke's finals match). 6: Fake Out/Wide Guard: In all but one team listed, this slot is taken by hitmontop for its access to great support options like intimidate/fake out/feint/wide guard/ally switch. Akuaayiyahei uses Hariyama in this slot as a partner to Reuniclus, as it can facilitate Trick Room set up, as well as providing fantastic Trick Room offense. Garchomp Titoooo (The Swamp Monster) OR Titoooo (CC #185) Joalza (The Fat Samourai) Cali (#CC 190) Ordovices (CC #186) 1: Garchomp 2: Bulky Water: Gastrodon can deal with most of garchomp's common counters, whilst Rotom-W can complete a "disquake" combo with Garchomp 3: Steel Type: Great defensive typing, tanking most Ice/Dragon moves which threaten Garchomp. Metagross is most commonly seen here, as it counters most intimidate users due to its ability Clear Body 4: Pivot: Most commonly Hitmontop, because as well as providing intimidate support it also offers Fake Out and Wide Guard support, which prevents Garchomp/Steel types from getting hit by common spread moves (Earthquake/Blizzard etc). Salamence is used on Titoooo's teams because in addition to having Intimidate, having a Salamence covers the entire team very well since with a little wear Draco Meteor can kill practically any Pokemon that bothers the Garchomp sweep, and is a more aggressive option 5: Support: Most often Togekiss, as it provides Follow Me support for set up opportunities - the next two slots round out the team. For example, both Joalza and Cali opt for the popular FWG core. Also note that you will likely want more than one ground immunity so that you can spam Earthquake with impunity 6: (Filler) Trick Room + Weather @hernjet(CC #194) @OrangeManiac (CC #186) @PoseidonWrath(CC #191) @reliefgouai(Wrecking Force) IKillua (CC #196) 1: Reuniclus: Very reliable offensive Trick Room setter, with Magic Guard to avoid residual damage from Sand and Hail. 2: Fighting Type: Conkeldurr and Hariyama are most frequent here, as they can handle Reuniclus’ most common counters. Hariyama can also provide a means of Trick Room set up support in fake out, with access to wide guard to block common spread moves 3: Weather Setter: Sand and hail see the most use here. Sun (Torkoal) and rain (Pelipper) also see some use, but are not often as successful. Pokemon which occupy this slot are typically weak to common spread moves, hence why wide guard support is useful 4: Secondary TR Setter/Fast Mode/Speed Control: This slot depends largely on your Weather Setter. Excadrill is typically seen with Tyranitar due its access to Sand Rush and Tyranitar’s middling speed, whereas slower weather users tend to utilise a secondary TR setter. IKillua's team has multiple speed control options (Trick Room/Icy Wind) due to tyranitar/metagross' middling speed 5: Bulky Water: Here to to act as part of the defensive backbone of the team. Since Ikillua's team already has a bulky water in slot 4, the next two slots deal with the team's weaknesses 6: Filler: Deals with the team’s weaknesses. This is a loose suggestion as there are few commonalities in the teams listed due to varying weather setters. Rain smbee (CC #191) @Zigh (Flinching Forever) @CrissCy (CC #184) EYL (Wrecking Force) @OrangeManiac (CC #198) 1: Pelipper 2: Swift Swim: Kingdra/Ludicolo primarily see usage here. Kingdra for greater offense, and Ludicolo for access to fake out and Grass type STAB, which comes in handy against common rain counters (Rotom-W/Gastrodon). 3: Rain Abuser / Set Up: Very varied usage here, as rain is quite a flexible archetype. Set up sweepers see usage due to rain handling their counters, and Rain abusers for extra offensive. 4: Steel Type: Typically either scizor or metagross, this slot adds bulk (particularly resistance to dragon STAB) and offensive pressure, which completes the standard rain core (drizzle/swift swim/rain abuser/steel type) 5: Support: The next two slots are pretty flexible. They either include redirection/fake out support, speed control, or provide counters to common rain checks. Note that 3/5 teams listed use an electric type! 6: (Filler) Sample Teams Rakhmaninov Rain: PokePaste Kloneman Rain: PokePaste *** Please discuss/critique existing frameworks, give suggestions for new frameworks, and substantiate your suggestions with sample teams that have had tournament success. Enjoy Doubles! Edited February 23, 2021 by Rakhmaninov Added Sample Teams MaatthewMLG, Kamowanthere, MikasaA and 18 others 20 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Excellent analysis, I really like the idea of the piece by piece approach and the reasoning that you have for each new addition to a specific team is really good. redbluegreen, Parke and Rakhmaninov 2 1 Link to comment
Xigbar Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Great job bro. The way u understand each team and describe it is awesome. Keep the good work. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
TiToooo Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 garchomp ttar salamence togekiss gastrodon metagross best team ever Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, TiToooo said: garchomp ttar salamence togekiss gastrodon metagross best team ever tbf that is a sick team TiToooo 1 Link to comment
TiToooo Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Rakhmaninov said: tbf that is a sick team wtf Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 minute ago, TiToooo said: wtf lol it's british for cool https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=that's sick Link to comment
TiToooo Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: lol it's british for cool https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=that's sick oh lol xdd Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
guilleex Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) Nice since you got the (CC #194) I used 3 different Reuniclus. Quarterfinal vs Superman: Reuniclus with Acid Armor, Calm mind, Psychock and Recover. I used this since I change one of my supports for Crobat so I could have the taunt control in the match instead the follow me. This Reuniclus was very effective since my opponet actually used the same Reuniclus lol. Semifinal vs Gasaiyunosan: Used the clasic Trick room set but I didn't have the chance to use during the match, but at the late game that would be very usefull since her last remaining pokemons were Kingdra + Peliper, so I would have the TR control for sure. The reuniclus I used in the finals is kind of something Im just testing, so It was added for a combo that I dind't have the chance to use it. Since for this team Ferrothron can be a pain it's recommended to use somethin with fire Edited June 25, 2020 by guilleex redbluegreen, SweeTforU and Rakhmaninov 2 1 Link to comment
redbluegreen Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Can you please feature iMat's team from CC#195 finals? I think it would be very informative for new players SuperiorHolmes, Jeiseun, Rakhmaninov and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted June 25, 2020 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, redbluegreen said: Can you please feature iMat's team from CC#195 finals? I think it would be very informative for new players Ye I'll make a framework for it too, looks pretty solid redbluegreen 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 Added Rickypoke's team from CC #196 to Set Up framework. NB Snorlax Belly drum as a secondary set up under trick room aZaz07 1 Link to comment
kloneman Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Very great guide for those looking to build their first doubles team and great analysis I've had a lot of success with this rain team a lot recently and I know a guy who won a Dubs tourney with it, so feel free to add it: https://pokepast.es/bc0023dcdfec31c6 Pelipper/Seismitoad are the rain setters, Kingdra, Ludicolo and Seismitoad all have swift swim, Ferrothorn is the rain abuser, Conkeldurr is a filler. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, kloneman said: Very great guide for those looking to build their first doubles team and great analysis I've had a lot of success with this rain team a lot recently and I know a guy who won a Dubs tourney with it, so feel free to add it: https://pokepast.es/bc0023dcdfec31c6 Pelipper/Seismitoad are the rain setters, Kingdra, Ludicolo and Seismitoad all have swift swim, Ferrothorn is the rain abuser, Conkeldurr is a filler. Added! :) Link to comment
iJulian Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 @Rakhmaninov @OrangeManiac and @Zigh are being the real mvps with the dubs content on forums/discord. and with the upcoming update giving us matchmaking this is about to get real lit. Love the tier getting a lot of activity! (still LF more official tours though) Rakhmaninov, OrangeManiac, TiToooo and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 6, 2020 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 Added a Garchomp framework. @TiToooo you might want to comment as two of your teams are up there :) TiToooo 1 Link to comment
TiToooo Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 first of all very good analysis but: On 6/24/2020 at 4:30 PM, Rakhmaninov said: 4: Pivot: Salamence is used on Titoooo's teams as it has perfect synergy with Metagross. In addition to being intimidated, having a salamence covers the entire team very well since with a little wear Draco Meteor can kill practically any Pokemon that bothers the Garchomp sweep. and its a more aggressive option On 6/24/2020 at 4:30 PM, Rakhmaninov said: 6: (Filler) i like use rotom or tyranitar for to cover climates but I use a lot more to tyranitar i wouldn't call it filler because it is very important to avoid a sweep from some sun, rain etc Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 6, 2020 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 1 minute ago, TiToooo said: first of all very good analysis but: In addition to being intimidated, having a salamence covers the entire team very well since with a little wear Draco Meteor can kill practically any Pokemon that bothers the Garchomp sweep. and its a more aggressive option i like use rotom or tyranitar for to cover climates but I use a lot more to tyranitar i wouldn't call it filler because it is very important to avoid a sweep from some sun, rain etc Thank you bro, thought I was missing something :) Will add your descriptions to the framework Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 6, 2020 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, TiToooo said: first of all very good analysis but: In addition to being intimidated, having a salamence covers the entire team very well since with a little wear Draco Meteor can kill practically any Pokemon that bothers the Garchomp sweep. and its a more aggressive option i like use rotom or tyranitar for to cover climates but I use a lot more to tyranitar i wouldn't call it filler because it is very important to avoid a sweep from some sun, rain etc Added Salamence's description! Going to leave the last slot as "filler" for now as there are too many different roles which fill the last slot on all teams listed to justify a more specific title. Granted that if it were just your teams which were used to make the framework I would consider a different title. Peripheral team roles become looser suggestions by definition :) Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 Bump - Added @OrangeManiac's winning team from CC #198 to the Rain Framework Imabetheverybest1 and OrangeManiac 2 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Alright, here's just a little post reflecting my view on the viability of the current frameworks. Not expecting anything to be changed in OP but perhaps kind of a conversation starter:Tier 1 (the teams to beat) - Garchomp + Kingdra set up teams - Rain Tier 2 (great answers to the metagame) - Sun/Sand Trick Room (great counter to Rain) - HailRoom (specifically counter to Garchomp set up teams, also rain to some extent) Tier 3 (overall strong archetypes) - Tailwind Hyper Offense (strong on its own, but also great to counterplay rain's speed advantage especially w/ Whimsicott) - Balanced w/ soft Trick Room mode (Reuniclus + Conk for example) Tier 4 (great cores but difficult to play in the current meta) - Volcarona set up support - Sand core (I know some of you would rate this higher but I think the meta is very hostile to it) Rakhmaninov and redbluegreen 2 Link to comment
redbluegreen Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said: Alright, here's just a little post reflecting my view on the viability of the current frameworks. Not expecting anything to be changed in OP but perhaps kind of a conversation starter:Tier 1 (the teams to beat) - Garchomp + Kingdra set up teams - Rain Tier 2 (great answers to the metagame) - Sun/Sand Trick Room (great counter to Rain) - HailRoom (specifically counter to Garchomp set up teams, also rain to some extent) Tier 3 (overall strong archetypes) - Tailwind Hyper Offense (strong on its own, but also great to counterplay rain's speed advantage especially w/ Whimsicott) - Balanced w/ soft Trick Room mode (Reuniclus + Conk for example) Tier 4 (great cores but difficult to play in the current meta) - Volcarona set up support - Sand core (I know some of you would rate this higher but I think the meta is very hostile to it) Are you basing these tiers off of the strength of these teams in mm or the strength vs good players? Because while the tier 1 teams you listed have done well in matchmaking I'm not convinced they would see that level of success in psl for example. I'm also not convinced about rain being tier 1, although you have had a lot of success with it every other rain player I've seen/played against has looked like the more free win ever. Just curious what are you considering sand core to be? To me sand core is just a standard balance team with excadrill taking the place of a fast sweeper. Imo ttar balance will always be the most effective way to play balance due to it being the most splashable weather reset. I also think the dynamic speed changes only helped this archetype in counter weather matchups because ttar out of all the weather setters is such a strong pivot. I feel like with people moving away from double intimidates this archetype is about as strong as it's ever been and out of all the other archetypes listed above, it only has a bad matchup vs tailwind. I also think it's probably worth listing hard tr with no weather as tier 4, since it seems to be very popular on ladder. Although it seems most people using this are having a fairly hard time reaching it to the top of the leaderboard. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said: Alright, here's just a little post reflecting my view on the viability of the current frameworks. Not expecting anything to be changed in OP but perhaps kind of a conversation starter:Tier 1 (the teams to beat) - Garchomp + Kingdra set up teams - Rain Tier 2 (great answers to the metagame) - Sun/Sand Trick Room (great counter to Rain) - HailRoom (specifically counter to Garchomp set up teams, also rain to some extent) Tier 3 (overall strong archetypes) - Tailwind Hyper Offense (strong on its own, but also great to counterplay rain's speed advantage especially w/ Whimsicott) - Balanced w/ soft Trick Room mode (Reuniclus + Conk for example) Tier 4 (great cores but difficult to play in the current meta) - Volcarona set up support - Sand core (I know some of you would rate this higher but I think the meta is very hostile to it) Thank you for you input @OrangeManiac! Please could you provide some sample teams along with these suggestions? Or teams that have seen tournament success? I'll keep an eye on teams in finals which match up to the cores listed! Thanks bro :) OrangeManiac 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, redbluegreen said: Are you basing these tiers off of the strength of these teams in mm or the strength vs good players? Because while the tier 1 teams you listed have done well in matchmaking I'm not convinced they would see that level of success in psl for example. I'm also not convinced about rain being tier 1, although you have had a lot of success with it every other rain player I've seen/played against has looked like the more free win ever. That's a good question. I'd say tier 1's are the one that on paper are the most powerful and has most potential. But you're right that Chomp setup teams heavily struggle against experienced players because they know what they are doing - and some of the setup teams aren't very flexible. At this point, I consider it just immaturity in teambuilding as I think the good Chomp players will eventually figure out how to counter the difficult matchups by perhaps slightly less centralizing their team on the Chomp set up and limiting the support to only 1-2 Pokemon. Surprised rain players seemed free wins, I feel like it's a team that is very easy to autopilot. But fair enough. Quote Just curious what are you considering sand core to be? To me sand core is just a standard balance team with excadrill taking the place of a fast sweeper. Imo ttar balance will always be the most effective way to play balance due to it being the most splashable weather reset. I also think the dynamic speed changes only helped this archetype in counter weather matchups because ttar out of all the weather setters is such a strong pivot. I feel like with people moving away from double intimidates this archetype is about as strong as it's ever been and out of all the other archetypes listed above, it only has a bad matchup vs tailwind. Fair. I was considering sand core either Ttar + Exca or Gigalith + Exca (latter having also a Trick room mode, but I always found this combination very counter-intuitive). Hitmontop is the main reason why I think it's hard to play them and Hitmontop is a Pokemon you can slap to basically any given team. But you have a good point about TTar being great weather resetter to counter weather teams. But I see Tyranitar rather as a great individual Pokemon, than TTar + Exca being a core you particularly need to build against. Edited August 12, 2020 by OrangeManiac Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Imabetheverybest1 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, OrangeManiac said: Alright, here's just a little post reflecting my view on the viability of the current frameworks. Not expecting anything to be changed in OP but perhaps kind of a conversation starter:Tier 1 (the teams to beat) - Garchomp + Kingdra set up teams - Rain Tier 2 (great answers to the metagame) - Sun/Sand Trick Room (great counter to Rain) - HailRoom (specifically counter to Garchomp set up teams, also rain to some extent) Tier 3 (overall strong archetypes) - Tailwind Hyper Offense (strong on its own, but also great to counterplay rain's speed advantage especially w/ Whimsicott) - Balanced w/ soft Trick Room mode (Reuniclus + Conk for example) Tier 4 (great cores but difficult to play in the current meta) - Volcarona set up support - Sand core (I know some of you would rate this higher but I think the meta is very hostile to it) Setups strong but if u play a good player who can break the "flowchart" can be kinda hard to win. Rain I agree with to but requires a good player to pilot, one mistake and u can lose pretty quick. Sand rooms tier 2 yeah but idk about sun room, a lot of the top mons kinda beat the common core mons of the archetype. Hailroom is the best archetype in my hands. T-wind hyper offense is tier 2 imo, but struggles with rain so I guess that could drop it off. Top moth is super bad on mmo I wouldn't even rate it. Sand can be tier 3 imo. Exca ttar just need the proper support and they can destroys teams. Edited August 13, 2020 by Imabetheverybest1 Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
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