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Elite 4 Champion - King of the Hill


Solember

Question

Here is the premise summarized:

Channels where the E4 champion is a player.

Defeating the player makes you the Champion.

All challenges are accepted automatically.

As long as you are the champion, you get some arbitrary payment (like 1000 Pokedollars per hour).

There will be a record board for who has held the title the longest.

A prize pool - Every 15 minutes you have been the Champion you randomly gain an item.

There is a 15 min battle limit that favors the Challenger (that means that after 15 minutes, the challenger wins).

You have to use the team you won with for your defensive team, so the E4 itself is the filter of "cheese", and if you use a stall team to win, you will suffer for it on the defensive end.

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If I were to apply it, I would use something Similar to how Legends already work. You get classified when you win a Champion Battle, and that classification applies the changes. Have a 15 second cooldown between battle challenges for changing the lead Pokemon. It would be REALLY cool if a Champion also had managed to obtain a legend. Just some epic scenarios.

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9 hours ago, Solember said:

If I were to apply it, I would use something Similar to how Legends already work. You get classified when you win a Champion Battle, and that classification applies the changes. Have a 15 second cooldown between battle challenges for changing the lead Pokemon. It would be REALLY cool if a Champion also had managed to obtain a legend. Just some epic scenarios.

15 minute battle time is arbitrary at best and making the champion lose the title after said time would make less people use the system. Locking the champion into the same team encourages only counter teaming the current champion and not straight competitive play. Then there is the issue of when the current champion logs off. What do you do then? You can't just arbitrarily award the title to someone. Then the added issue of there being 4 regions with their own Elite 4. Do you propose there be 4 champions at that point? There are a ton of complexities with this.

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9 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

15 minute battle time is arbitrary at best and making the champion lose the title after said time would make less people use the system. Locking the champion into the same team encourages only counter teaming the current champion and not straight competitive play. Then there is the issue of when the current champion logs off. What do you do then? You can't just arbitrarily award the title to someone. Then the added issue of there being 4 regions with their own Elite 4. Do you propose there be 4 champions at that point? There are a ton of complexities with this.

1 - The champion needs to be able to lose, and shouldn't be able to do infinite stall especially if there is a time reward. Also there will be other people looking to challenge. It needs to be hard for the champion, not the challenger.

 

2 - The challengers still need to battle the E4 to get there, so planning a team is not exactly easy.

 

3 - Just have the previous champion show up or have a custom champion on the KotH channel take over or have the current Challenger take over in his place if there is one.

 

4 - Yes. That's the point. Each region has a champion.

 

The reward is the arbitrary part. 1000 P per RL minute is nothing special, and the item every fifteen minutes can be nice, but nothing game breaking.

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8 hours ago, Solember said:

3 - Just have the previous champion show up or have a custom champion on the KotH channel take over or have the current Challenger take over in his place if there is one.

so if someone becomes a champion on this King of the Hill/KotH channel will they be able to sell propane and propane accessories?

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10 hours ago, Solember said:

1 - The champion needs to be able to lose, and shouldn't be able to do infinite stall especially if there is a time reward. Also there will be other people looking to challenge. It needs to be hard for the champion, not the challenger.

Yes they do, but you don't get to arbitrarily decide how long that takes. Standard tournament matches get more time to complete than you are giving players who would be battling in this system. What comp player in their right mind would want to take part in a match where they don't get proper time to really think their moves through? If you want interesting matches then the standard chess timers from tournament mode would be more than enough.

 

10 hours ago, Solember said:

2 - The challengers still need to battle the E4 to get there, so planning a team is not exactly easy.

You do realize that most players don't use tournament ready teams to battle the elite 4 right? Not every comp team will do well and some are more efficient than others. What you will end up with is a ton of cookie cutter team matches where both players have similar teams. How is that interesting in any manner?

 

11 hours ago, Solember said:

 

3 - Just have the previous champion show up or have a custom champion on the KotH channel take over or have the current Challenger take over in his place if there is one.

 

4 - Yes. That's the point. Each region has a champion.

 

It's also entirely possible for 2 players in the same region to defeat the elite 4 at the same exact time. What do you do then? You can't have two champions in the same region. Throwing them into a battle neither is equipped for is poor design. There's honestly no other way to put it. You can't have two champions and you can't throw them into a match blindly. You've created a paradox. Sure, you could throw up a dialog that gives the option to battle for champion, but what does that really solve? Nothing. It will add confusion because newer players, not all of them read the forums, would be confused since they had already become champion to their knowledge and now there is this dialog saying they aren't unless they win some extra battle they knew nothing about. A larger complication comes in when you have more than 2 players defeating the elite 4 in the same region at the same exact time, which is entirely plausible. How do you handle that without frustrating players?

 

10 hours ago, Solember said:

The reward is the arbitrary part. 1000 P per RL minute is nothing special, and the item every fifteen minutes can be nice, but nothing game breaking.

In order for the reward system to not be game breaking the rewards would have to be bound to the player, just like items you find during the storyline. If they aren't it becomes very game breaking. Giving out something that can be traded, such as yen, BP, or RP, would be very game breaking.

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1 hour ago, XelaKebert said:

Yes they do, but you don't get to arbitrarily decide how long that takes. Standard tournament matches get more time to complete than you are giving players who would be battling in this system. What comp player in their right mind would want to take part in a match where they don't get proper time to really think their moves through? If you want interesting matches then the standard chess timers from tournament mode would be more than enough.

 

You do realize that most players don't use tournament ready teams to battle the elite 4 right? Not every comp team will do well and some are more efficient than others. What you will end up with is a ton of cookie cutter team matches where both players have similar teams. How is that interesting in any manner?

 

It's also entirely possible for 2 players in the same region to defeat the elite 4 at the same exact time. What do you do then? You can't have two champions in the same region. Throwing them into a battle neither is equipped for is poor design. There's honestly no other way to put it. You can't have two champions and you can't throw them into a match blindly. You've created a paradox. Sure, you could throw up a dialog that gives the option to battle for champion, but what does that really solve? Nothing. It will add confusion because newer players, not all of them read the forums, would be confused since they had already become champion to their knowledge and now there is this dialog saying they aren't unless they win some extra battle they knew nothing about. A larger complication comes in when you have more than 2 players defeating the elite 4 in the same region at the same exact time, which is entirely plausible. How do you handle that without frustrating players?

 

In order for the reward system to not be game breaking the rewards would have to be bound to the player, just like items you find during the storyline. If they aren't it becomes very game breaking. Giving out something that can be traded, such as yen, BP, or RP, would be very game breaking.

Everything you said is such a stretch of "nope" that it seems you're just trying to argue at this point.

 

Two players defeating an NPC at exactly the same time? That's a non issue. In the 1 in unnecessarily large number chance that happens, the comp can decide. That, or on the KotH channel you can have only one challenger battling at a time.

 

If it is a designated channel, players using non-comp teams are just fodder. It makes no sense to be on the channel battling the E-4 if you're not trying to win.

 

The time limit can be whatever or nothing at all. Whatever the devs decide.

 

As for the prize for holding the position, really? 60,000 P per hour is broken? 4 items from a prize pool per hour are broken? For one person per region? Okay. Let's say there are 96 items per day per region with my one every fifteen minutes model.

 

Of the 96, one is a master ball. 24 are single Rare Candies. Things like that. Again, nothing breaking the game. It's rewarding players for being the King of the Hill. I imagine the prize support and the appeal of being the champion... even the record board would draw players in. The 1,000 P per minute is so nominal at that level of play that it could be removed with no loss of interest.

 

The prize support should match the battle timer whatever it is. So thirty minutes becomes 48 per day. The problem there is that less people will challenge the incumbent champion if they have to wait around for half an hour. Though with E-4 cool-down times, it is probably a non issue.

 

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25 minutes ago, Solember said:

Everything you said is such a stretch of "nope" that it seems you're just trying to argue at this point.

Some things you seem to miss about the system being used for the legends in game are that at any given time only 1 is available. It is literally impossible for two players to encounter a given legend at the same time. Players who go after the legends are already aware of the system and how it operates. Players are subjected to limitations on fast travel. Legends return to the wild if the current holder logs out or attempts to transfer it to their PC. At that point, anyone who wants to take part can go search for it. Your system is a shortsighted amalgamation of the legend system and Matchmaking.

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

Two players defeating an NPC at exactly the same time? That's a non issue. In the 1 in unnecessarily large number chance that happens, the comp can decide.

You are in an instanced environment when you battle the elite 4, you have absolutely no idea how many other players are also battling and where their progress is with respect to you. In other words, you are already in your own channel when you battle the elite 4. The reason for this is to allow for the cooldowns to be properly tied to you as a player.

Multiple players defeating a region's champion at the same time is entirely possible. Tying their fate to RNG to decide who gets the crown is just bad. Nobody wants their fate determined entirely by RNG at all, and yes the changelogs would need to note that champions would be determined by RNG in the event of ties.

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

That, or on the KotH channel you can have only one challenger battling at a time.

So a channel dedicated only to challenging the elite 4, but only one person can challenge at a time? First off, that's already what happens as mentioned above. Second, that's just boring. If only one person is allowed to challenge the elite 4 on the channel at a time then how do other players get to challenge them for the crown? Battle the same elite 4 and then get to challenge the champion at the end? Still boring. What makes the system interesting for the legends is that players are able to move around with limitations. You don't have to slog through an entire series of trainers just to get to them. Sure, you can challenge the other players in the area of the person holding the legend, but then you end up potentially losing your shot to challenge for it as well. Do you let anyone in that channel just walk in and challenge? If so, what use does the elite 4 even serve anymore?

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

If it is a designated channel, players using non-comp teams are just fodder. It makes no sense to be on the channel battling the E-4 if you're not trying to win.

When a player logs in the server will attempt to place them in their preferred channel. If that channel is full then it will place them in a different channel that is not full. On that same note, when you exit your instance of the elite 4 by winning or losing the server will attempt to place you back in your previous channel if it is not full. This means that it becomes entirely likely a player could just be thrown into this designated channel on login or after exiting their elite 4 instance. Not good design at all. Sure, you could very well make the system not place players in this channel, but then what? How do you make players aware this channel even exists?

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

The time limit can be whatever or nothing at all. Whatever the devs decide.

Chess timers exist in tournament matches because arbitrary time limits suck and tying a player's fate entirely to RNG is bad design. On top of that, placing a time restriction on the match that favors the challenger if time runs out encourages stall tactics from challengers. Think about that for a moment. Who would want to play offensively if they know that they will automatically win once time runs out? Time limits will make this system a battle of who can make the best team of walls. Not very interesting at all. You can't make the system smart enough to decide who would win if time runs out either because there are too many factors to take into account. Tying it to number of Pokemon is bad because someone could still pull a sweep with a couple left. Most players are smart enough to know when they need to forfeit and when they should keep trying. Back when I was on staff, we experimented with time limits on matches with the condition that if a match did not complete when time expired both would be disqualified. The end result was some players intentionally stalling out for time to get their opponent thrown out with them. It was not a good system. Nobody wants to lose because their opponent wants to play heavy stall and runs the timer out.

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

As for the prize for holding the position, really? 60,000 P per hour is broken? 4 items from a prize pool per hour are broken? For one person per region? Okay. Let's say there are 96 items per day per region with my one every fifteen minutes model.

That's also 240,000 P across all regions per hour. If by P you mean Pokeyen, that's incredibly bad. That equates to 5,760,000 yen per day for all regions created out of nowhere on top of the already large amount being created through other means, hello inflation. Battle Points are the closest you will get to currency neutral in terms of rewards, but even then you are cranking a ton out every single day. I don't seem to recall any of the other BP rewards being even remotely as rewarding.

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

Of the 96, one is a master ball. 24 are single Rare Candies. Things like that. Again, nothing breaking the game. It's rewarding players for being the King of the Hill.

Master Balls are useless unless you encounter a shiny that can use Roar, Whirlwind, Explosion, or Self Destruct. They are not even worth effort to obtain extra from PvP instances. Rare Candies have value behind them given the investment needed to make them. Even then, you can't give out tradeable items as rewards in this system. They have to be bound to the player who wins them.

 

1 hour ago, Solember said:

I imagine the prize support and the appeal of being the champion... even the record board would draw players in. The 1,000 P per minute is so nominal at that level of play that it could be removed with no loss of interest.

 

The prize support should match the battle timer whatever it is. So thirty minutes becomes 48 per day. The problem there is that less people will challenge the incumbent champion if they have to wait around for half an hour. Though with E-4 cool-down times, it is probably a non issue.

I'm going to close this out with this statement. The system you want already exists in the form of Matchmaking, which is getting a major overhaul in the next update. Upcoming changes that have been announced include seasonal leaderboard tournaments for the top players and streak based rewards. The only real difference between this and Matchmaking is the lack of NPC trainers.

 

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