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LifeStyleNORE

PokeMMO Dev Blog 9000: Questions

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1 minute ago, pachima said:

Idk about steel not resisting dark and ghost, but they shouldn't ever ever buff knock off. We don't have megas or z-moves to nerf it.

Gen8 doesnt have megas or z-moves either. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Darkshade said:

While it is certainly counter-able, we don't believe it's something that should be encouraged.

It's an incredibly cheap strategy and not something we want to encourage as a way of learning to climb the ranks.

Nor is it particularly fun/rewarding to lose against, especially as an inexperienced player.

 

This is not the only reason that lower levels are discluded from participating (standard playing field etc.), but it has been a topic of discussion in the past.

 

 

Not only is it counterable, it pretty much scratches the surface of unviable gimmick. 

 

Ok so even if we consider it an incredibly cheap strategy, then why are trapping abilities being let in competitive play (Arena Trap/Shadow Tag)? which are far more cheap and way less fun to lose against, but in this case even for experienced players

 

And yeah I get that there are other reasons, but the one you mentioned seems really odd imo. 

Edited by LifeStyleNORE

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13 minutes ago, Darkshade said:

Unlikely, one of the reasons they're disallowed in the first place is to prevent use of the F.E.A.R strategy, as you have outlined. 

Why would you purposely want to prevent the use of any one strategy??

Also what about lvl 49? It's a tradeoff of some stats (damage and bulk) for trick room mons to be slower than their counterparts

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8 hours ago, MknsZblex said:

Why scouting and counterbuild is a probleme ?
Playing a tournament with only one team has no sens, 
If you have comp you can change your team whenever you want, if someone try to counterbuild you, you can just change your team and the probleme is solved.
Having a lot of comps should be an avantage in this game. Since we need to farm money to breed. Imagine I breed a lot of comps to use only 6 of them.

I think it's not a problem for these ppl who play tournament often, but its the problem for those ppl who new to tournament. Right, you could change ur team any time in tournament, then the shuffle brackets should not affect you,but will benifit to the others. 

 

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First of all, I'm happy for the improvemets we'll be getting into the PVP and Matchmaking area. Now getting into the discussion points:

 

Tournament rewards will be more versatile in their choices, allowing for Gender selection & selectable IVs with any value (0~31):

 The best way to improve this is to let us lock 2x31 while allowing to select a value (0-25) for the remaining ivs.

 

Tournaments:
 I think tournaments must remain just as they are right now.

 It's obv not allowing spectators will kill the hype. 

 In my opinion, Shuffle brackets would only work if each round starts at specific time and that would make tours even longer, wich is a big no.

 I'm not against scouting/cteaming since cteaming your opp doesn't mean you will win. He can just switch his team, play better than you, etc.

 Restricting one team per player is just bad. Just as mkns said, if I invested a ton of hours to have a ton of comps, I should be allowed to use them and take adventaje of the time I invested on this game.

 

Gengar:

 I really think levitate should remain as his ability until we get everything(or at least fairy/steel mechanics + mons from newer gens) updated. His fight/ground immunity is a big thing to the current OU and even doubles meta. Not having levitate will make it much less usable and will also limit teambuilding so hard. I wont go into details here because it's obv nothing can replace gengar due to its versatility/type/ab/speed. Even if he gets NP or not, the cons will be much bigger.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Just have people pay an extra fee to use those mons. If you want to use a lvl 1 mon, that mon needs a have all beauty contest ribbons or get "pvp particle" that you buy with bp/pokeyens. There are a lot of ways to prevent unleveled storyline mons from entering competitive events and matchmaking.

I also liked this idea.

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Posted (edited)

Is Psyduck learning whirlpool in the next patch ?

Edited by Quinn010
Bc i can

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Aren't Ghost types immune to arena trap? Best thing Dugtrio can do is play the 50/50 with EQ/Pursuit.

Oh so rip me i really tought it was due to levitate and they were immune only to shadow tag smh

 

  

2 hours ago, JorgeFirebolt said:

Tbh it would be better to keep gengar as how is it right now since sub-disable set stops some threats as I said, and ban nasty plot on gengar as draco meteor was banned from hydreigon.


I think there are some disagree, sub disable gengar isnt that used, and honestly, its kinda risky rely in an offensive mon to stop some stuff imo

Edited by Risadex

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9 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Not only is it counterable, it pretty much scratches the surface of unviable gimmick. 

This is one thing that I don't understand from PokeMMO competitive, for example like banning items like Quick Claw and King's Rock, those items are generally... not good. Strats that rely on RNG are "uncompetitive" but they are also really REALLY unviable a huge portion of the time and yet they find themselves unallowed. Especially lame since King's Rock has a neat little use with Fling making it a second/improvised Fake Out.

I would err on the side of caution in banning/preventing strategies that Smogon never did.

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51 minutes ago, Saikr said:

This is one thing that I don't understand from PokeMMO competitive, for example like banning items like Quick Claw and King's Rock, those items are generally... not good. Strats that rely on RNG are "uncompetitive" but they are also really REALLY unviable a huge portion of the time and yet they find themselves unallowed. Especially lame since King's Rock has a neat little use with Fling making it a second/improvised Fake Out.

I would err on the side of caution in banning/preventing strategies that Smogon never did.

These items you mention only promote luck, they don't bring anything to the game's competitive side. The Tier Council makes their decisions in order to create the most competitive battling environment possible, keyword "possible". Which is why when people compare King's Rock to Rock Slide / Air Slash for example, you can answer them with "only these pokemons learn those moves, besides the fact they have a typing attached to them" while King's Rock can be used on anything, so King's Rock is a little bit more "problematic" than Rock Slide / Air Slash which is why you can ban the former and not the latter. Quick Claw is major bullshit, 20% chance to move first (in its priority bracket) every turn. There's nothing competitive about it, only promotes random luck.

 

The Smogon part well, we don't exactly follow everything Smogon does. One example would be us doing something about Baton Pass chains, way before they did.

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Are we getting the new TMs/TRs alongside the old ones, or are some of the current TMs going to be lost?

Does the updated moveset mean pokémon are only getting more options, or are we losing some as well (for example losing Toxic on a lot of mons)?.

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Posted (edited)

 

22 hours ago, Laz said:

A terrible con would be that matches need to start at the same time in every round, otherwise shuffling won't work, which means tournaments will last much longer, especially if some players are stalling because that is their only way of winning their games.

This would only be required if seeking perfect randomness, which my implementation did not. Sufficient randomness is achieved by queueing players after winning, then pairing random players from that queue while a minimum player count remains in the queue. Minimum player counts are derived based on the round's match states, which has the drawback that, the further the round proceeds, the more predictable your opponent becomes. This has a minor drawback of causing players who completed early to wait a few minutes longer before further rounds, but does not increase total tournament time.

 

20 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Would it not be possible to implement a system that applies a randomly-generated shuffle to each round before a tournament starts? I.e. match slots are placed into pre-determined pairs so that the shuffling has already been done, and therefore the matches don't need to start at the same time each round. The pairing pattern would also be unique for each tournament so that it wouldn't be decipherable. It's not perfect - the first and last games of each round would still invariably be susceptible to exploitation, but it would at least greatly attenuate the extent of scouting in early rounds. Perhaps the 10 minute match timer between rounds could be halted until there are at least 4 players waiting to enter their next game.

 

Additionally it wouldn't be as effective in the later rounds or in smaller brackets, but I'm not sure how you can effectively prevent scouting in these scenarios without anonymising every player or removing live spectating.

...

There are also other options available if remote spectating is implemented. The bracket could be hidden entirely until the tournament is finished in order to prevent live scouting, and you could just input a command to spectate specific players such as teammates or friends etc. instead of freely picking from an entire list of matches while the tournament is happening

Scouting is not a solvable problem in our game, which is why I did not seek perfect randomness for my round shuffling impl. As you mentioned, perfectly anonymizing tournament participants is required to resolve it, and we're not willing to sacrifice the social experience for that.

 

It should be noted that round shuffling is only effective while the player group is too large to be documented by spectators. If a large group of players coordinated simultaneously to document everyone's party, a reasonable prediction of playstyles and parties could be created in real time. The best way to handle scouting from a player perspective is to build more teams and play a variety of styles, and work with other players to borrow items to give yourselves more possible variety.

 

The lack of the ability to develop teams in secrecy is an interesting oversight, and we may consider an option to suppress Spectatorship for direct duels between Friends/Guildmates.

 

1 hour ago, Selusio said:

Are we getting the new TMs/TRs alongside the old ones, or are some of the current TMs going to be lost?

Does the updated moveset mean pokémon are only getting more options, or are we losing some as well (for example losing Toxic on a lot of mons)?.

You are only gaining new options. All new TMs/TRs were implemented as standard TMs.

Edited by Kyu

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4 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

These items you mention only promote luck, they don't bring anything to the game's competitive side. The Tier Council makes their decisions in order to create the most competitive battling environment possible, keyword "possible". Which is why when people compare King's Rock to Rock Slide / Air Slash for example, you can answer them with "only these pokemons learn those moves, besides the fact they have a typing attached to them" while King's Rock can be used on anything, so King's Rock is a little bit more "problematic" than Rock Slide / Air Slash which is why you can ban the former and not the latter. Quick Claw is major bullshit, 20% chance to move first (in its priority bracket) every turn. There's nothing competitive about it, only promotes random luck.

 

The Smogon part well, we don't exactly follow everything Smogon does. One example would be us doing something about Baton Pass chains, way before they did.

I understand this but still find it nonsensical to ban things that are, at their core, "noob strategies" which cant reliably work within a match let alone a set and let alone a tournament. I'm not saying Smogon is perfect but I think they generally have good reasoning for the brunt of their decisions.

I also think its part of the learning and bettering process of the players in the game to learn that relying on luck won't get them far and that bad gimmicks are also not gonna get them wins outside of "perfect storm" circumstances.

It won't affect me personally (outside of being sort of sad at the loss of the fling kings rock gimmick) because relying on luck is still bad no matter what, but it does feel unnecessary.

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Just now, Saikr said:

I understand this but still find it nonsensical to ban things that are, at their core, "noob strategies" which cant reliably work within a match let alone a set and let alone a tournament. I'm not saying Smogon is perfect but I think they generally have good reasoning for the brunt of their decisions.

I also think its part of the learning and bettering process of the players in the game to learn that relying on luck won't get them far and that bad gimmicks are also not gonna get them wins outside of "perfect storm" circumstances.

It won't affect me personally (outside of being sort of sad at the loss of the fling kings rock gimmick) because relying on luck is still bad no matter what, but it does feel unnecessary.

As you say, is bad. You won't win a tour relying on it. But think about this for a second.

You signup in a tour, after some training, you spent a few mill in a new team, you cleared your schedule so you can play without interruptions... And then you lose r1 because a random has brought kings rock on a mon and flinches you in an impactful turn. Obviously that random will get smashed in later rounds.

What did you acomplish there having such items? A waste of time and resources.

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On 6/8/2020 at 12:40 PM, AndrewHavsha said:

That's hardly a fair reasoning, since the changes of dark/Ghost have a larger impact than just fairy typing. If devs are trying to keep mechanics as up to date as possible I'd like to see at least a discussion to see how much that would improve / worsen balance. 

Late response but iirc the dark/ghost change was made BECAUSE of the Fairy type. If it wasn't for the change, the Steel type would resist like 11 types and have inmunity to 1, that would be kinda broken, so Gamefreak decided to nerf it. But, the fairies aren't present in Pokémmo so no change required.

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

Since they haven't been released in the base game I don't think they'll be implemented yet.

I mean they might aswell right? if what they wanna accomplish is being up to date it wouldnt make sense for them not to update it so they are outdated again after a couple months

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

Since they haven't been released in the base game I don't think they'll be implemented yet.

I'm assuming this is incorrect given the fact that all missing pokemon have already been confirmed access to these moves (via Pokemon HOME) before being introduced into SwSh - current availability in SwSh shouldn't revoke this as each Pokemon has a TM listing prior to release in-game... right? Please correct me if I'm wrong if this doesn't translate across to PokeMMO

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  Is hidden abilities going to be part of the game now??? Because, I have no idea why the ability moody was even brought up, because moody is a hidden ability, which no pokemon as of now even has. Or is moody the only hidden ability to be introduced? Yes, I see there are gen 8 changes in abilities such as intimidate and moody, but I'm not sure why moody is even brought up since 0 pokemon has moody.

 

  I don't really get it...please clarify.

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Just now, Jess said:

  Is hidden abilities going to be part of the game now??? Because, I have no idea why the ability moody was even brought up, because moody is a hidden ability, which no pokemon as of now even has. Or is moody the only hidden ability to be introduced? Yes, I see there are gen 8 changes in abilities such as intimidate and moody, but I'm not sure why moody is even brought up since 0 pokemon has moody.

 

  I don't really get it...please clarify.

Not yet, eventually...

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I'll chime in here as someone who doesn't play tournaments.

 

I've seen numerous, numerous, numerous tournaments that take forever for subsequent rounds to happen since people try to watch their opponent in the previous round to see what Pokes they used so they can build a team with counters. Not only is that lame as hell, it makes everything take longer and wastes everyones time so they can stroke their ego a bit more.

 

Any changes?

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18 minutes ago, EssDeeCee said:

I'll chime in here as someone who doesn't play tournaments.

 

I've seen numerous, numerous, numerous tournaments that take forever for subsequent rounds to happen since people try to watch their opponent in the previous round to see what Pokes they used so they can build a team with counters. Not only is that lame as hell, it makes everything take longer and wastes everyones time so they can stroke their ego a bit more.

 

Any changes?

I think if the devs can find a way to shuffle opponents for each new round, this would be a much more pointless endeavor as you'd have no idea who to scout and watch replays for (until the later rounds when the field is narrowed). Kyu mentioned earlier in the thread that it's something they'd look into

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25 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I think if the devs can find a way to shuffle opponents for each new round, this would be a much more pointless endeavor as you'd have no idea who to scout and watch replays for (until the later rounds when the field is narrowed). Kyu mentioned earlier in the thread that it's something they'd look into

Honestly, I hadnt really thought about it from that perspective but yeah, that would probably just make me spam the same team for the first few rounds and queue immediately after my previous match is done.

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