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Doubles Viability Rankings


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7 minutes ago, Zigh said:

 

Extremely bulky, will stay for a long time + has great support moves. Just for that is worth C or even B-. Taunt kinda shuts it down, but that doesnt mean is useless. Also is not passive, you are kinda biased comparing it to things like reuniclus. They dont serve the same purpose.

105 Base speed with fake out + feint access, REGENERATOR, enough stats to be run mixed and 0hko a good chunk of the top meta a D tier? are we insane? Infernape might be better, but that doesnt mean is a bad mon

... just no. "struggles a lot against follow me". It only struggles against blastoise, is an amazing mon against togekiss/amoongus/electabuzz/lucario. Also rotom is not a valid reason to put it lower.

 

A mon that when scarfed, could literally sweep your entire team if it has enough support. I see

Scrafty's intimidate is much better than moxie in doubles. Cheking ur "read machamp": " Doesn't really do much that top/breloom/conk don't do better. " You are comparing a C tier mon to what it should be a Top S/A+. That's just stupid. Is in C tier for reasons. Also it does a better job than breloom/conkeldurr in many cases, they dont serve the same purpose.

 

Won't talk about other mons coz I don't like them either, but still think they deserve C tier.

 

Quoting the C tier description

" (Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Doubles metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.)"

 

and now D tier description

" (Reserved for pokemon which only carry out a very limited function and are easily outclassed by other Pokemon in higher rankings)"

 

how could you say all of those mons deserve to be in D tier? literally all of those can do an outstanding job with the correct team; furthermore they can be used in multiple teams, not just 1 gimmick 1 trick team.

 

 

 

 

Promoted Dusclops/Mienshao/Darmanitan/Mamoswine/Scrafty to C Tier until further discussion.

 

NB: We are expecting substantial changes to the rankings due to the many changes made in the new update:

 

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On 5/26/2020 at 1:04 AM, Rakhmaninov said:

C Tier (Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Doubles metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.)

MagnezoneMagnezone icon

For me Magnezone should be B-

The neutral coverage of steel+electric is realy strong and not many pokemon can come and take a flash cannon + tbolt (+Hp fire for ferro or Hp grass for gastro ). Magnezone can run some support move Like ally switch toxic or twave, discharge is a powerfull stab that allow him To hit both pokemon with a 30% chance of para. Magnezone have a lot of usefull resistance (rock/ice/elec/grass/fly(hi togekiss)/psy), and both ability aren't bad in dubs, the 60BS speed can be played in trick room and even the scarf set with volt switch is good To keep the momentum, but on the other side he struggle a lot against a lot of top tiers, *4 ground ( chomp or exca ) and *2 fight ( Top and conkel ) weakness, but also win against some other top tiers Blastoise Toge gengar ( without fblast ) ect... 

 

For me Magnezone have enough versatility and utility against some top tiers To be B- even with its weaknesses

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1 hour ago, DrakeHope said:

For me Magnezone should be B-

The neutral coverage of steel+electric is realy strong and not many pokemon can come and take a flash cannon + tbolt (+Hp fire for ferro or Hp grass for gastro ). Magnezone can run some support move Like ally switch toxic or twave, discharge is a powerfull stab that allow him To hit both pokemon with a 30% chance of para. Magnezone have a lot of usefull resistance (rock/ice/elec/grass/fly(hi togekiss)/psy), and both ability aren't bad in dubs, the 60BS speed can be played in trick room and even the scarf set with volt switch is good To keep the momentum, but on the other side he struggle a lot against a lot of top tiers, *4 ground ( chomp or exca ) and *2 fight ( Top and conkel ) weakness, but also win against some other top tiers Blastoise Toge gengar ( without fblast ) ect... 

 

For me Magnezone have enough versatility and utility against some top tiers To be B- even with its weaknesses

Promoted!

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16 hours ago, DrakeHope said:

 Magnezone have a lot of usefull resistance (rock/ice/elec/grass/fly(hi togekiss)/psy),

except none of those resistances except rock and psychic matter. Also any rock/psychic user has access to a super effective move against magnezone.

Its speed is garbage in any way (not slow enough for tr, not fast enough outside of it). Also steel+electric is one of the worst possible typings considering the current meta, x4 weakness to ground is too bad.

The only good thing is the ability, but again, with the current meta running steel type mons isnt that worth, so meh. Sturdy is also not good enough in doubles.

 

" (hi togekiss) " even loses a 1v1 situation vs togekiss...

 

 

 

Edited by Zigh
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3 hours ago, Zigh said:

except none of those resistances except rock and psychic matter. Also any rock/psychic user has access to a super effective move against magnezone.

Its speed is garbage in any way (not slow enough for tr, not fast enough outside of it). Also steel+electric is one of the worst possible typings considering the current meta, x4 weakness to ground is too bad.

The only good thing is the ability, but again, with the current meta running steel type mons isnt that worth, so meh. Sturdy is also not good enough in doubles.

 

" (hi togekiss) " even loses a 1v1 situation vs togekiss...

 

 

 

Moved to C Tier until further discussion

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On 6/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Zigh said:

Extremely bulky, will stay for a long time + has great support moves. Just for that is worth C or even B-. Taunt kinda shuts it down, but that doesnt mean is useless. Also is not passive, you are kinda biased comparing it to things like reuniclus. They dont serve the same purpose.

I never once said I was comparing it to Reuniclus, that is putting things in my mouth. The most obvious comparisons to make is first to Cofagrigus, which also has similar bulk, reasonable special attack, access to nasty plot/cm, similar support moves and in most cases the better ability. 

The next most obvious comparison would be to the other eviolite TR setter porygon. And while yes it doesn't quite have the bulk that clops has or the ghost typing it has reliable recovery and is able to threaten most common taunt users as well as checking lots of the metas more viable threats.

 

When something is both taunt and set up bait it really needs something going for it other than it being bulky otherwise it only fulfils a very limited function (d rank definition)

 

On 6/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Zigh said:

105 Base speed with fake out + feint access, REGENERATOR, enough stats to be run mixed and 0hko a good chunk of the top meta a D tier? are we insane? Infernape might be better, but that doesnt mean is a bad mon

Except you said it yourself. Infernape is better. The pros for using it: Fake out, feint, ability to run mixed and ohko a good chunk of the meta game (ttar with fighting moves, dragons with hp ice, volca with stone edge, ect.) Infernape literally does the same thing and in most cases does it better. And it's not like we are comparing it to an S tier mon, infernape is being argued for B- or C and it hard outclasses it. And this is before even talking about it's lack of a reliable stab move with high bp.

Regenerator alone on something that simply does not have the bulk to abuse it does not justify a reason to use mienshao.

 

On 6/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Zigh said:

... just no. "struggles a lot against follow me". It only struggles against blastoise, is an amazing mon against togekiss/amoongus/electabuzz/lucario. Also rotom is not a valid reason to put it lower.

This was kinda my fault. I was supposed to write it struggles vs intimidate not follow me, I guess my mind was lost when I wrote that.

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 68-84 (36.3 - 44.9%)

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 108-128 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 100-120 (54.6 - 65.5%)

 

My Point was if I didn't misspeak should have been that in general it could be played around too easily with intimidates. In a lot of cases it just hit things into berry range and could get ohkod in return. 

This all being said Mamo is really not the hill I'm going to die on so I'm fine with it being C since it would have to get moved up with the intimidate changes anyway.

 

On 6/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Zigh said:

A mon that when scarfed, could literally sweep your entire team if it has enough support. I see

To address your point. If it would have the support required to sweep due to it's lack of bulk and generally being fairly reliant on it's single target fire stab it would really require follow me support to be effective. But even with follow me support it's still in danger of it being ohko'd due to it's weakness to 3 of the most common spread moves in the meta. It is overly reliant on scarf to be effective and it becomes very easy to protect scout it and play around it. 

 

If you were going to make any argument for it to be moved up out of D it would be because of it's role as a revenge killer and even then I still don't think it's very good. Not sure in what world Darmanitan is ever sweeping an entire team but I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that was hyperbole.

 

On 6/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Zigh said:

Scrafty's intimidate is much better than moxie in doubles. Cheking ur "read machamp": " Doesn't really do much that top/breloom/conk don't do better. " You are comparing a C tier mon to what it should be a Top S/A+. That's just stupid. Is in C tier for reasons. Also it does a better job than breloom/conkeldurr in many cases, they dont serve the same purpose.

It is in no way a stupid comparison to make, it is very clearly a gimped version of what it should be and pointing that out is perfectly reasonable and justifiable. With how things stand in MMO atm Scrafty simply doesn't have a role. With a lack of viable Psychic types (no latios/latias/cresselia) it's dark typing becomes fairly obsolete. Out of our viable psychic types it loses vs Metagross and Doesn't even reliably beat Reuniclus. Looking at the ghosts, Gengar typically carries focus blast, chand usually spams fire moves and the TR ghosts will just burn it.

 

It's only role that is serves is to be a worse top that is less shit vs Reuniclus and even at that it doesn't do a good job. If you are too look at it's offensive capabilities (ability to carry ice punch for chomp, threaten Reuniclus, ect.) Conk outclasses it.

 

252+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 150-176 (69.1 - 81.1%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 175-206 (80.6 - 94.9%)

 

And even Breloom does a better job at shutting down Reuniclus by being able to prevent Trick Room by threatening with spore + being able to threaten Reuniclus even through rage powder amoonguss support.

 

 

So again just like the other mons that I mentioned, Scrafty has a "very limited function" and is "easily outclassed by pokemon in higher rankings" Also known as the defintion of D tier.  I don't know why you are quoting the tier definitions at me like I can't read, when I literally wrote about their functions and how they are limited as well as writing about how they get outclassed in pretty much every single example.

 

At least you are right about Magnezone.

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10 hours ago, Zigh said:

except none of those resistances except rock and psychic matter. Also any rock/psychic user has access to a super effective move against magnezone.

Its speed is garbage in any way (not slow enough for tr, not fast enough outside of it). Also steel+electric is one of the worst possible typings considering the current meta, x4 weakness to ground is too bad.

The only good thing is the ability, but again, with the current meta running steel type mons isnt that worth, so meh. Sturdy is also not good enough in doubles.

 

" (hi togekiss) " even loses a 1v1 situation vs togekiss...

 

 

 

The *4 weakness against ground suck yeah but when i said steel+electric typing is good I mean in offense there not a lot of pokemon who take both flash cannon + tbolt ( gastrodon ferrothorn excadrill swampert Rotom beat and mow ) and the support movepool isnt bad.

For resistance, also resisting the boltbeam is good too, maybe not worth the B- bcs of garchomp and top everywhere but u can't put Magnezone in the same tiers as pokemon like electabuzz/slowbro or serperior.

Btw i never lost a 1v1 against a dubs togekiss with Magnezone 

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Honestly, I would never use any of the pokemon that are being currently discussed (except maybe ape but it would require a very specific teambuild) and I use a lot of things, many of which are kinda niche so that should tell you something (anything abobe C would be crazy talk)

 

The main drawback of zone is that it competes with every rotom form and yeah it can trap steels but thats not even that great in our metagame (ferro is rarer every time and you wont be 0koing meta), most of the time you'd be better running rotom + literally any fire type that fits your team (of which there are a lot of great ones) and even then, w-o-w on sciz/met might aswell be a ko so no trapping needed either.

 

Mamo is okay rn I guess, I've only really ever ran it on a paraflinch discharge team and that was before garchomp. It will definitelly serve a better niche next patch once oblivious ignores intimidate.

Edited by iJulian
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14 hours ago, redbluegreen said:

I never once said I was comparing it to Reuniclus, that is putting things in my mouth. The most obvious comparisons to make is first to Cofagrigus, which also has similar bulk, reasonable special attack, access to nasty plot/cm, similar support moves and in most cases the better ability. 

The next most obvious comparison would be to the other eviolite TR setter porygon. And while yes it doesn't quite have the bulk that clops has or the ghost typing it has reliable recovery and is able to threaten most common taunt users as well as checking lots of the metas more viable threats.

 

When something is both taunt and set up bait it really needs something going for it other than it being bulky otherwise it only fulfils a very limited function (d rank definition)

 

Except you said it yourself. Infernape is better. The pros for using it: Fake out, feint, ability to run mixed and ohko a good chunk of the meta game (ttar with fighting moves, dragons with hp ice, volca with stone edge, ect.) Infernape literally does the same thing and in most cases does it better. And it's not like we are comparing it to an S tier mon, infernape is being argued for B- or C and it hard outclasses it. And this is before even talking about it's lack of a reliable stab move with high bp.

Regenerator alone on something that simply does not have the bulk to abuse it does not justify a reason to use mienshao.

 

This was kinda my fault. I was supposed to write it struggles vs intimidate not follow me, I guess my mind was lost when I wrote that.

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 68-84 (36.3 - 44.9%)

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 108-128 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 100-120 (54.6 - 65.5%)

 

My Point was if I didn't misspeak should have been that in general it could be played around too easily with intimidates. In a lot of cases it just hit things into berry range and could get ohkod in return. 

This all being said Mamo is really not the hill I'm going to die on so I'm fine with it being C since it would have to get moved up with the intimidate changes anyway.

 

To address your point. If it would have the support required to sweep due to it's lack of bulk and generally being fairly reliant on it's single target fire stab it would really require follow me support to be effective. But even with follow me support it's still in danger of it being ohko'd due to it's weakness to 3 of the most common spread moves in the meta. It is overly reliant on scarf to be effective and it becomes very easy to protect scout it and play around it. 

 

If you were going to make any argument for it to be moved up out of D it would be because of it's role as a revenge killer and even then I still don't think it's very good. Not sure in what world Darmanitan is ever sweeping an entire team but I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that was hyperbole.

 

It is in no way a stupid comparison to make, it is very clearly a gimped version of what it should be and pointing that out is perfectly reasonable and justifiable. With how things stand in MMO atm Scrafty simply doesn't have a role. With a lack of viable Psychic types (no latios/latias/cresselia) it's dark typing becomes fairly obsolete. Out of our viable psychic types it loses vs Metagross and Doesn't even reliably beat Reuniclus. Looking at the ghosts, Gengar typically carries focus blast, chand usually spams fire moves and the TR ghosts will just burn it.

 

It's only role that is serves is to be a worse top that is less shit vs Reuniclus and even at that it doesn't do a good job. If you are too look at it's offensive capabilities (ability to carry ice punch for chomp, threaten Reuniclus, ect.) Conk outclasses it.

 

252+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 150-176 (69.1 - 81.1%)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 175-206 (80.6 - 94.9%)

 

And even Breloom does a better job at shutting down Reuniclus by being able to prevent Trick Room by threatening with spore + being able to threaten Reuniclus even through rage powder amoonguss support.

 

 

So again just like the other mons that I mentioned, Scrafty has a "very limited function" and is "easily outclassed by pokemon in higher rankings" Also known as the defintion of D tier.  I don't know why you are quoting the tier definitions at me like I can't read, when I literally wrote about their functions and how they are limited as well as writing about how they get outclassed in pretty much every single example.

 

At least you are right about Magnezone.

 

Dusclops: D Tier

Mienshao: No Change 

 

To be clear, "very limited" functionality means that a pokemon either has 1 main gimmick that it can abuse (cloud nine, no guard etc), or faces sufficient competition to render it easily outclassed on all fronts.

 

As for Mienshao, the question is whether or not it is sufficiently outclassed by Infernape to justify its place in D Tier, so I'll offer my two cents.

One clear advantage of using Mienshao over Infernape which has not been mentioned yet is its access to wide guard, by which it can fill a role on teams that require a guaranteed fake out (not only through its speed but also access to inner focus, albeit unnecessary), feint and wide guard support - for example, hyper offensive sand teams.

Also, although not a factor which affects viability but availability, Mienshao is not as much of a pain in the arse to breed as Hitmontop or Infernape, so for those who are looking to build their teams on a budget, Mienshao may offer options which no other pokemon can. Not to mention that this thread is designed especially for newer players, who will often require cheaper pokemon with greater availability.

 

Darmanitan/Scrafty: D Tier until further discussion

Magnezone: No Change

Edited by Rakhmaninov
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13 hours ago, DrakeHope said:

 but u can't put Magnezone in the same tiers as pokemon like electabuzz/slowbro or serperior.

I would say those, except for electabuz, are overall better than magnezone. They do a pretty good job at their role, while magnezone's role is... non existant besides trapping steel types (not a good role in the current meta)

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16 hours ago, redbluegreen said:

The most obvious comparisons to make is first to Cofagrigus, which also has similar bulk,

Not even close to be similar. Yeah, cofa has lefties, but the stats are way different. Lets take a 0 Evs/neutral nature to make things simpler.

 

Dusclops:                                          Cofagrigus:

  • 115 Hp                                                     133 Hp
  • 225 Def                                                    165 Def
  • 225 Spdef                                                125 Spdef

 

Also excuse me if I'm wrong, but if comparing it to Cofagrigus, what's the difference when both are taunt/setup bait? I would gladly choose dusclops over cofa 100% of the times. Pain split/Nightshade will always be better than a non boosted shadowball/hex.

16 hours ago, redbluegreen said:

Except you said it yourself. Infernape is better. The pros for using it: Fake out, feint, ability to run mixed and ohko a good chunk of the meta game (ttar with fighting moves, dragons with hp ice, volca with stone edge, ect.) Infernape literally does the same thing and in most cases does it better. And it's not like we are comparing it to an S tier mon, infernape is being argued for B- or C and it hard outclasses it. And this is before even talking about it's lack of a reliable stab move with high bp.

Regenerator alone on something that simply does not have the bulk to abuse it does not justify a reason to use mienshao.

Then the solution to this is to move infernape up (which was something I was in favor), not downgrade Mienshao.

 

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1 hour ago, Zigh said:

Also excuse me if I'm wrong, but if comparing it to Cofagrigus, what's the difference when both are taunt/setup bait?

About this specific part. They are not exactly both taunt/setup bait since cofa can afford holding a mental herb unlike dusclops.

Edited by gbwead
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can we upgrade gliscor to B

 

it is just weaker garchomp with way better ability to set up in dubs. compared to garchomp,

its cons:

-worse spdef (not much, both of pokemon can be 2 hit knocked out by average 100-130 spatk pokemon)

-7 less speed

-35 less attack (that is what makes garchomp better imo)

-weak to aoe water type attacks unlike garchomp, and doesn't resist rock slide

-can be countered by rotoms unless you use rock slide instead of acrobatics, that removes item cons

-(only if you use acrobatics) no leftovers or berry but gems can be deadly

 

its pros:

-better def

-ABILITY hyper cutter (3rd best ability after Clear Body and Defiant for phyiscal attack sweepers, that is what makes gliscor threatening)

-fighting resistance, ground immunity which means can be combined with another EQ user to use double EQ

 

awesome duo with follow me blastoise and wide guard hitmontop to set up SD (scald and ice beam are taken by blastoise, muddy water surf and icy wind can be prevented by wide guard hitmontop and gliscor can protect while switching off between toise and hitmon), togekiss or any levitate to spam earthquake when boosted.

 

it is worse garchomp but with enough support it can be so threatening and it is not scared from dual intimidate switch ins, it is more viable than most of C tier pokemons and some of B- pokemons imo

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19 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

can we upgrade gliscor to B

 

it is just weaker garchomp with way better ability to set up in dubs. compared to garchomp,

its cons:

-worse spdef (not much, both of pokemon can be 2 hit knocked out by average 100-130 spatk pokemon)

-7 less speed

-35 less attack (that is what makes garchomp better imo)

-weak to aoe water type attacks unlike garchomp, and doesn't resist rock slide

-can be countered by rotoms unless you use rock slide instead of acrobatics, that removes item cons

-(only if you use acrobatics) no leftovers or berry but gems can be deadly

 

its pros:

-better def

-ABILITY hyper cutter (3rd best ability after Clear Body and Defiant for phyiscal attack sweepers, that is what makes gliscor threatening)

-fighting resistance, ground immunity which means can be combined with another EQ user to use double EQ

 

awesome duo with follow me blastoise and wide guard hitmontop to set up SD (scald and ice beam are taken by blastoise, muddy water surf and icy wind can be prevented by wide guard hitmontop and gliscor can protect while switching off between toise and hitmon), togekiss or any levitate to spam earthquake when boosted.

 

it is worse garchomp but with enough support it can be so threatening and it is not scared from dual intimidate switch ins, it is more viable than most of C tier pokemons and some of B- pokemons imo

Promoted to B until further discussion! :)

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I'd like to make a suggestion in adding Crobat to B- Tier.

 

Sample Set

 

crobat.gif

 

Crobat @ Flying Gem / Black Sludge 
Ability: Inner Focus  
Level: 50  
#1 EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

#2 EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (0 Atk IVs)*
Jolly / Timid* Nature  
- Acrobatics / Super Fang 
- Haze / Super Fang 
- Tailwind  
- Taunt

 

(*Super Fang Usage) 

 

Given the amount of set-up cores around Kingdra/Garchomp that are floating around the meta, Crobat, with its fantastic base 130 speed, decent attack, access to Haze to reset all set ups/stat changes, fake out immunity in Inner Focus, very strong speed control options in Taunt + Tailwind, 4x resistance to fighting AND access to flying gem acrobatics to take down Hitmontop (-1 252 Atk Flying Gem Crobat Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 152-182 (96.8 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO), fits very comfortably as a support role on sand teams and alike. A bulkier set with super fang is also viable as a heavy support option, benefiting spread attackers such as Garchomp. 

 

Its main competition in B- is Aerodactyl (sharing Flying Type/Taunt/Tailwind and 130 base speed), who is slightly better offensively with its base 105 Attack, although it neither resists fighting nor has a reliable flying STAB option, depending primarily on rock slide for spread damage and flinch hax. The only other viable fast Haze user in the current format is Gengar, who will soon be dropping significantly in viability due to cursed body replacing levitate. Taunt and Tailwind are also shared by Whimsicott, Mandibuzz and Hydreigon, two of which are also in B- Tier, although arguably the addition of inner focus makes for a more consistent lead against fake out support, especially given the popularity of Fake Out + Trick Room set ups. Not to mention that Choice Band sets could also potentially see some usage. Suffice it to say that this Pokemon is highly underrated.

 

Summary: Crobat fills a niche role on fast offensive teams requiring flying coverage, with access to unique support moves such as Haze and Super Fang.

 

Please discuss.

Edited by Rakhmaninov
Mistakes: Focus Energy is not reset by haze; Aerodactyl performs different function in sky drop
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On 6/18/2020 at 6:03 PM, Rakhmaninov said:

Crobat

A couple of things to say mostly about Haze, Firstly I'm not sure if you know this but it seems implied but Haze doesn't work against Focus Energy so it doesn't work very well against Kingdra teams unless you are using it for the taunt, but there are other taunt users that more reliably beat follow me.


Secondly I personally don't think a fast haze is very required. Most offensive boosters boost speed (QD Volca, DDance Gyara) with the only real exception to that being ofc Garchomp. But considering Bat still takes a lot of damage from neutral DClaw and for the most part you will have a much better time beating Follow me Chomp by using a mixture of intimidates and spread moves which will beat other non SD chomp sets much better a swell. In my opinion the main threats that require Haze is things like Double Dance Reuniclus and QD Volca, and I think in those cases Milotic or Bulky Dnite do a better job.

 

I also don't think you should compare Bat to Aero. I feel like they both feel very different niches; Aero with Sky drop shuts down follow me and supports boosters substantially and Crobat works very well as an Anti Lead with its immunity to fake out and access to Acrobatics.

 

This all being said I think Bat is still fine and is either high C or low B- for now. But I think it's a bit strange to discuss Bat right now when it is about to get 2 giant buffs to both Inner Focus and to Tailwind in a couple of weeks time which will probably move it up to A, but probably best not to discuss theorymonning too much for now.

 

Spoiler

Also since Gengar was mentioned. Somewhat controversial opinion but I think Gengar is not going to be hit nearly as hard as some people suggest. Unless we suddenly start seeing new different EQ users, which I somewhat doubt, it will be mostly the same. Gengar already struggled a lot with Sand and required Top support to work against themand it already struggled vs follow me chomp. And with some of the other changes coming in the patch it may even find itself a new niche.

 


 

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2 minutes ago, redbluegreen said:

A couple of things to say mostly about Haze, Firstly I'm not sure if you know this but it seems implied but Haze doesn't work against Focus Energy so it doesn't work very well against Kingdra teams unless you are using it for the taunt, but there are other taunt users that more reliably beat follow me.


Secondly I personally don't think a fast haze is very required. Most offensive boosters boost speed (QD Volca, DDance Gyara) with the only real exception to that being ofc Garchomp. But considering Bat still takes a lot of damage from neutral DClaw and for the most part you will have a much better time beating Follow me Chomp by using a mixture of intimidates and spread moves which will beat other non SD chomp sets much better a swell. In my opinion the main threats that require Haze is things like Double Dance Reuniclus and QD Volca, and I think in those cases Milotic or Bulky Dnite do a better job.

 

I also don't think you should compare Bat to Aero. I feel like they both feel very different niches; Aero with Sky drop shuts down follow me and supports boosters substantially and Crobat works very well as an Anti Lead with its immunity to fake out and access to Acrobatics.

 

This all being said I think Bat is still fine and is either high C or low B- for now. But I think it's a bit strange to discuss Bat right now when it is about to get 2 giant buffs to both Inner Focus and to Tailwind in a couple of weeks time which will probably move it up to A, but probably best not to discuss theorymonning too much for now.

 

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Also since Gengar was mentioned. Somewhat controversial opinion but I think Gengar is not going to be hit nearly as hard as some people suggest. Unless we suddenly start seeing new different EQ users, which I somewhat doubt, it will be mostly the same. Gengar already struggled a lot with Sand and required Top support to work against themand it already struggled vs follow me chomp. And with some of the other changes coming in the patch it may even find itself a new niche.

 


 

Absolutely agree with everything said here. Didn't know about focus energy and haze, thanks for correcting me! 

 

Will move crobat back to C tier for now

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On 5/26/2020 at 10:20 AM, OrangeManiac said:

Ludicolo - A. I think Ludicolo is better than people give it credit for. It doesn't even need to be in a rain team but obviously performs there best. Fake Out can buy precious turns, especially against Trick Room which rain struggles against.

 

 

On 5/26/2020 at 11:00 AM, iJulian said:

Agreed. though I would say A-. It's super strong but I feel it suffers real badly from 4mmss you want pump, gigadrain, icebeam, focus blast, fake out and protect 

 

On 5/27/2020 at 3:56 PM, Rakhmaninov said:

Ludicolo: B Tier (A- candidate if/when the tier is introduced)

Promoting Ludicolo to B+ Tier due to the above suggestions, as they were not implemented when the sub-tiers were introduced. Please discuss if you disagree :)

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Posting this here for reference, not sure how useful it'll be but it should give an indication as to common team archetypes in finals. For example, Trick Room and Set Up teams see a lot of success, hence the surprising number of Reuniclus used. I wonder how this will change going into the new update! Apologies for the table being upside down XD

 

Usage Statistics from CC Finals #185-196 (excluding #195)
   
Teams: 22    
Pokemon Raw Data Percentage
Gastrodon 4 18.18%
Tyranitar 4 18.18%
Conkeldurr 5 22.73%
Hariyama 5 22.73%
Porygon2 5 22.73%
Kingdra 6 27.27%
Metagross 6 27.27%
Rotom-W 7 31.82%
Blastoise 8 36.36%
Hitmontop 10 45.45%
Garchomp 11 50.00%
Togekiss 12 54.55%
Reuniclus 14 63.64%
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Bump - added tournament final usage to OP with data from CC #198

 

Here is the updated table for reference: 

 

Tournament Final Usage:
Mar 19 - Jul 16
   
Teams: 50  
Pokemon Raw Data Percentage
Togekiss 26 52.00%
Garchomp 23 46.00%
Hitmontop 23 46.00%
Reuniclus 20 40.00%
Kingdra 19 38.00%
Metagross 15 30.00%
Blastoise 14 28.00%
Rotom-W 10 20.00%
Porygon2 8 16.00%
Gastrodon 8 16.00%
Amoonguss 8 16.00%
Tyranitar 7 14.00%
Snorlax 7 14.00%
Hariyama 6 12.00%
Gengar 6 12.00%
Conkeldurr 5 10.00%
Salamence 5 10.00%
Scizor 5 10.00%

 

Will be resetting the table in the new update. 

 

Here is a spreadsheet which documents all tournament final teams since March 19:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DlDFJo-YOv2G3CteaupFlIkM442VWQT--TmgceoOAjU/edit?usp=sharing

 

Edited by Rakhmaninov
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  • 3 weeks later...

I have to say Crobat is really good. We knew that it's great for its capability to control speed with Tailwind and Taunt but Inner Focus buff made it offensively great too. It can use Flying Gem Acrobatics or Brave Bird for very solid damage as it cannot get Intimidated. Offensively Flying-type is very solid, as there's plenty of relevant Grass and Fighting types in Doubles metagame. Crobat absolutely demolishes T1 Hitmontop leads, which is quite meta-defining trait as well. I'd say it deserves a raise even up to B+ but I guess B for it is safe until it's getting placements in tournaments.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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I think with the new PVP System:

Spoiler

 

(Speed is now evaluated after every battle action in Double Battles. 

This affects cases where Speed changes in the middle of a turn, such as when Paralysis is inflicted, or Tailwind becomes active.) 

 

Whimsicott should be A-/B+, it has a super Strong Ability: Prankstar + great Support Moves:  Tailwind / Taunt / Fake Tears / Encore.

It also deals good Damage to Rain Teams/Water Pokes with: Gigadrain / Energyball.

 

Screenshot_1.png.57a0c0aac64aa0160d1ab87ec7f63778.png

 

Its also the 9th used Poke, in the Doubles Statistics, with a 15,93% Matchmaking Usage and a 51,87% Win Rate.

Edited by LordCyber
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