Doubles Viability Rankings

[Rakhmaninov]

1 hour ago, kloneman said:

Could we possibly add a controversial entry in Seismitoad? It's pretty decent in rain teams with it's Swift Swim ability, has decent bulk and is only weak to grass which makes it a good early rain dance setter in case you want to save Pelipper for later. Also has access to some decent multi-target moves in Muddy Water, Icy Wind and EQ. So I think with all this considered, it should be C tier in this list.

 

Let me know if i'm wrong, i'm just going off the success i've had with it in battles.

Added Seismitoad to C Tier! :)

58 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

Sludge Wave Gengar works really well with sand boosted Excadrill, since they can spam EQ + Sludge Wave together, also can use shadow ball to avoid wide guards. It finds a good place in sand teams

 

in my opinion:

Gliscor should can its place in B, it is pretty much slower and less attack Garchomp but very good ability to avoid intimidate meta pokemon, It can make really powerful duo with tailwind + follow me Togekiss and its stab attacks are checking each other's resistances

 

Manectric to B, because it is really good electric type pokemon in doubles. With Lightningrod it can draw electric type moves and protect your pokemon which are weak to electric type moves (exception of discharge). HP Grass to take out Gastrodon or HP Ice to take out Dragons, volt switch, flamethrower to kill standart electric counters such as excadrill, ferrothorn. It also learns aoe discharge if you combine it with a ground type or pokemon with electric immunity, or wide guard pokemon.

 

Added Gliscor to C Tier until further arguments are made in its favour :)

Will register Manectric as a C+ candidate as a compromise until further discussion

Will make a note of SW Gengar in Sample Cores

 

NB: Updated OP so that Sample Cores section takes up post #2

[OrangeManiac]

Mandibuzz. Finally I can talk about this. I'll take back everything I said about the most overlooked Doubles mons and give this title to Mandibuzz. First and foremost: Snarl. A very poweful move in Doubles. Mandibuzz also has a good typing for this move. Whereas rain and Reuniclus kinda destroy Arcanine, the main other Snarl user - Mandibuzz typing works very nicely here. It can support its teammate really well if special side is your team's weaker side. Additionally, Foul Play is a very strong move in current metagame. It hits very hard the likes of Garchomp and Metagross but does decent damage all around the board. Has also Tailwind to support the team and Taunt to shutdown Trick Room. Roost is often useful because Mandibuzz' main wincon is stalling in the late game but supporting options are very overlooked. I'd consider Mandibuzz a B ranking mon, however there are literally no usage to demonstrate its popularity. That's why I think C is fair for it due to is undoubted potential but if it gains popularity, I think it's a strong contender for B ranking.

 

Lucario also deserves C ranking at the very least. Great Follow Me support if Dark/Ghost is threatening. Also solid offensive movepool. Great Sash Pokemon as it is not damaged by sandstorm. Has also B potential but currently very rarely seen.

[Rakhmaninov]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Mandibuzz. Finally I can talk about this. I'll take back everything I said about the most overlooked Doubles mons and give this title to Mandibuzz. First and foremost: Snarl. A very poweful move in Doubles. Mandibuzz also has a good typing for this move. Whereas rain and Reuniclus kinda destroy Arcanine, the main other Snarl user - Mandibuzz typing works very nicely here. It can support its teammate really well if special side is your team's weaker side. Additionally, Foul Play is a very strong move in current metagame. It hits very hard the likes of Garchomp and Metagross but does decent damage all around the board. Has also Tailwind to support the team and Taunt to shutdown Trick Room. Roost is often useful because Mandibuzz' main wincon is stalling in the late game but supporting options are very overlooked. I'd consider Mandibuzz a B ranking mon, however there are literally no usage to demonstrate its popularity. That's why I think C is fair for it due to is undoubted potential but if it gains popularity, I think it's a strong contender for B ranking.

 

Lucario also deserves C ranking at the very least. Great Follow Me support if Dark/Ghost is threatening. Also solid offensive movepool. Great Sash Pokemon as it is not damaged by sandstorm. Has also B potential but currently very rarely seen.

Added both to C Tier! Haha yeah Mandibuzz sounds just like a discount Yveltal

[gbwead]

Hitmontop S+++++++++ Rank plz.

[Dartlex]

alomomola a C, it is a Pokémon with great bulk and access to very good support movements such as wideguard, helping hand, heal pulse, in addition to having access to priority as is aqua jet, the bad thing is that it is not as powerful, on the other hand an ability that has 30% of removing the state of your ally, coming very well to remove paralysis or similar things

[Zigh]

20 minutes ago, Dartlex said:

alomomola a C, it is a Pokémon with great bulk and access to very good support movements such as wideguard, helping hand, heal pulse, in addition to having access to priority as is aqua jet, the bad thing is that it is not as powerful, on the other hand an ability that has 30% of removing the state of your ally, coming very well to remove paralysis or similar things

Alomomola is not good enough to even cut C tier to be honest. Yeah, it has a good physical bulk, but its spdef is too bad. Doesn't even have enough power to deal decent damage. Also, its movepool is pretty limited, even considering is a support. Mons like slowking/slowbro (we need to put this in the same place as slowking, since their only difference is that their defenses swap) outclass it by far, and they are already considered C tier (this might need to change).

The aqua jet option is not even worth discussing; whoever runs that in alomomola should not be taken in consideration like, ever.  And until we have regenerator, the ability is thrash.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Zigh

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Zigh said:

Alomomola is not good enough to even cut C tier to be honest. Yeah, it has a good physical bulk, but its spdef is too bad. Doesn't even have enough power to deal decent damage. Also, its movepool is pretty limited, even considering is a support. Mons like slowking/slowbro (we need to put this in the same place as slowking, since their only difference is that their defenses swap) outclass it by far, and they are already considered C tier (this might need to change).

The aqua jet option is not even worth discussing; whoever runs that in alomomola should not be taken in consideration like, ever.  And until we have regenerator, the ability is thrash.

I disagree. Alomomola got tons of things going for it even without regenerator: Healing Wish, Helping Hand, Wide Guard, Heal Pulse, Soak, Light Screen, Icy Wind and several other moves which are quite valuable in a doubles format. I haven't checked what else is in C rank, but I'm sure it's possible to build viable teams with Alomomola at the center.

[Zigh]

42 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I disagree. Alomomola got tons of things going for it even without regenerator: Healing Wish, Helping Hand, Wide Guard, Heal Pulse, Soak, Light Screen, Icy Wind and several other moves which are quite valuable in a doubles format. I haven't checked what else is in C rank, but I'm sure it's possible to build viable teams with Alomomola at the center.

There is no real reason to ever run alomomola in doubles. It gets outclassed in every way by other support mons,  since it doesnt have anything "unique".

We have to remember that a viability ranking is meant to help players get into a tier, not promote gimmicks and low efficiency mons

Edited May 31, 2020 by Zigh
typo

[Rakhmaninov]

17 hours ago, Zigh said:

Alomomola is not good enough to even cut C tier to be honest. Yeah, it has a good physical bulk, but its spdef is too bad. Doesn't even have enough power to deal decent damage. Also, its movepool is pretty limited, even considering is a support. Mons like slowking/slowbro (we need to put this in the same place as slowking, since their only difference is that their defenses swap) outclass it by far, and they are already considered C tier (this might need to change).

The aqua jet option is not even worth discussing; whoever runs that in alomomola should not be taken in consideration like, ever.  And until we have regenerator, the ability is thrash.

Will be adding Slowbro to C Tier!

[redbluegreen]

With so many people suggesting meme mons C is getting far too overcrowded, also feels weird to see viable mons and meme mons in the same tier, feels like we really need D or should kick out some of the worse C ranks.

 

Side point but Slowking should always be at least a little bit above Slowbro. It's simply just the better mon. The defence swap while sounding minimal is a pretty big deal. With TR setters the main thing is making sure you have enough bulk to set up the TR.

Against special threats such as Dragon Gem Mence, Hydreigon, All Rotom Forms, Gengar, Volca, Chandelure & Abomasnow the extra special bulk helps massively and you can even EV it to live Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor without losing too much spatk.

Looking at the top physical attackers: Chomp, Top, TTar, Metagross, Conk, Exca, Ferro, Scizor. It already hard walls Top, Most meta sets and Conk. Chomp even at +2 doesn't ohko Slowking, Exca doesn't really threaten it, Not does a choice locked TTar. And Ferro and Scizor have to play around flamethrower.

And all of this is before even mentioning that you can use intimidates to make up for slowkings lack of defence

[TiToooo]

where is infernape

[OrangeManiac]

C surely is getting a bit crowded but I feel like some of them could be moved to B or lower B (I think B+/B/B- could be an idea). I think C is a good rank for Pokemon with undoubted potential but not have seen a lot of use. D is basically for one trick ponies that struggle to impress even at that one niche role they're doing.

[Rakhmaninov]

Will be adding a B+ and B- Tier! Please give your suggestions+explanations for which Pokémon warrant tier shifts :)

[Zigh]

Will edit later this with explanations, bit busy atm.

Since B+/B- are added, I would switch:

• From C to B-:
  • Slowking
  • Jolteon
  • Eelektross
  • Swampert
  • Mandibuzz
• From C to B:
  • Dragonite
• From B to B+:
  • Rotom (Mow)
  • Arcanine
  • Milotic
• From A to B+:
  • Gastrodon
  • Chandelure

By definition C tier should be the most crowded, since the number of good mons should exponentially decrease for each tier. This being said, we are missing a few mons. Each one can be played perfectly and has its place in a team without disrupting it or just being a meme.

 

• C Tier additions:
  • Infernape (for now, still dont know what to think about it)
  • Alakazam (Maybe even B-)
  • Machamp
  • Magnezone (Same as alakazam, maybe B-)
  • Electrode
  • Starmie
  • Breloom (Maybe B-)
  • Medicham
  • Mamoswine (Maybe B-)
  • Serperior
  • Krookodile
  • Darmanitan
  • Scrafty
  • Excavalier

[Rakhmaninov]

Have now added B+/- Tiers, and @Zigh's C Tier suggestions. Will add a D Tier soon, please make suggestions for which Pokemon to move down - i.e: Pokemon which only carry out a very limited function and are easily outclassed by other Pokemon in higher rankings :)

[iJulian]

I go away for a few days and yall start discussing alomomola? lmao

[OrangeManiac]

Looking good. Suggesting following Pokemon now to be raised from C:

 

Rhyperior to B. Extremely powerful Pokemon in Trick Room. A little bit awkward matchups against metateams though, such as opposing Trick Room and especially rain. But way too good in its role to be considered C, especially now.

 

Whimsicott to B-. Tailwind Taunt is the best possible speedcontrol in MMO Doubles. Follow Me Trick Rooming isn't very common so Taunt is a fairly good way to shut Trick Room down. A little bit passive on the field, though.

 

Aerodactyl for B-. Great T1 rocks lead, and Rocks aren't even that useless in 6v6 Doubles. Can spam Rock Slide for the remainder of its life. Punishes Togeleads also.

 

Lucario for B-. Too much value for one Pokemon to be as low as C when we are this lenient with rankings. Great offensive coverage, Follow Me can save a life of its buddy once in a while. Thanks to Inner focus doesn't need to Protect from opposing Fake Out so could more easily use all of its 4 moves.

[TiToooo]

i think infernape b tier is okay 

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 252-299 (134.7 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Togekiss: 99-118 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 99-117 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Hitmontop: 107-126 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Hitmontop: 87-103 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is a nice wall breaker 

[Rakhmaninov]

27 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Looking good. Suggesting following Pokemon now to be raised from C:

 

Rhyperior to B. Extremely powerful Pokemon in Trick Room. A little bit awkward matchups against metateams though, such as opposing Trick Room and especially rain. But way too good in its role to be considered C, especially now.

 

Whimsicott to B-. Tailwind Taunt is the best possible speedcontrol in MMO Doubles. Follow Me Trick Rooming isn't very common so Taunt is a fairly good way to shut Trick Room down. A little bit passive on the field, though.

 

Aerodactyl for B-. Great T1 rocks lead, and Rocks aren't even that useless in 6v6 Doubles. Can spam Rock Slide for the remainder of its life. Punishes Togeleads also.

 

Lucario for B-. Too much value for one Pokemon to be as low as C when we are this lenient with rankings. Great offensive coverage, Follow Me can save a life of its buddy once in a while. Thanks to Inner focus doesn't need to Protect from opposing Fake Out so could more easily use all of its 4 moves.

Done!

10 minutes ago, TiToooo said:

i think infernape b tier is okay 

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 252-299 (134.7 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Togekiss: 99-118 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 99-117 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Hitmontop: 107-126 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Hitmontop: 87-103 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is a nice wall breaker 

I've put infernape in B- Tier :)

[iJulian]

16 minutes ago, TiToooo said:

i think infernape b tier is okay 

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 252-299 (134.7 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Togekiss: 99-118 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 99-117 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Hitmontop: 107-126 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Hitmontop: 87-103 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is a nice wall breaker 

I feel that if I ever was to run infernape it'd have to be sash for sure

[redbluegreen]

7 hours ago, Rakhmaninov said:

Will add a D Tier soon, please make suggestions for which Pokemon to move down - i.e: Pokemon which only carry out a very limited function and are easily outclassed by other Pokemon in higher rankings :)

My suggestions of what to move down:

Dusclops: It really doesn't do anything unique. Sure it's bulky but in comparison to all the other TR mons it is by far the weakest after getting taunted and even if it does get TR off it is the least threatening out of all of them inside of TR. It just seems too passive to even make use of the 4 turns you should have to go aggressive inside of TR.

 

Mienshao: As far as fast fake outs go it gets outclassed by infernape. Mien doesn't even have a reliable fighting stab since HJK is a huge risk in doubles where protect is everywhere so it has to restort to using Drain Punch without having any bulk to make drain punch really worth it.

 

Golduck: I feel like in almost all scenarios you would rather just have your own weather to reset the opponents weather rather than having to run a sub par mon just to remove it.

 

Seismitoad: It does some things but it is really very niche. If you are looking for a bulky support Swampert is better than it in most aspects. If you are looking for it to be a rain sweeper kabu outclasses it. Ground stab doesn't seem very splashable or required on a rain team.

 

Machamp: Kinda weak since we have only 1/3 confusion chance. Doesn't really do much that top/breloom/conk don't do better.

 

Medicham: Read Mienshao

 

Mamoswine: In theory should be good against dragons with ice shard or scarf but struggles a lot vs follow me and with rotom being everywhere it doesn't really do much.

 

Darmanitan: Just an infernape with a worse movepool, doesn't live anything without sash, doesn't outspeed anything it needs to without scarf.

 

Scrafty: Read Machamp, kinda sucks until we get HAs.

 

Excavalier: Movepool isn't that great for doubles. Struggles a lot vs the common intimidate mons . As far as TR sweepers there are just better options, and scizor for the most part outclasses it with it's plethora of support moves.

 

Got some thoughts about other things in the other tiers that I think should be moved, will post that later.

Edited June 5, 2020 by redbluegreen

[gbwead]

21 minutes ago, redbluegreen said:

Golduck: I feel like in almost all scenarios you would rather just have your own weather to reset the opponents weather rather than having to run a sub par mon just to remove it.

It's all about simple beam.

[Rakhmaninov]

3 hours ago, redbluegreen said:

My suggestions of what to move down:

Dusclops: It really doesn't do anything unique. Sure it's bulky but in comparison to all the other TR mons it is by far the weakest after getting taunted and even if it does get TR off it is the least threatening out of all of them inside of TR. It just seems too passive to even make use of the 4 turns you should have to go aggressive inside of TR.

 

Mienshao: As far as fast fake outs go it gets outclassed by infernape. Mien doesn't even have a reliable fighting stab since HJK is a huge risk in doubles where protect is everywhere so it has to restort to using Drain Punch without having any bulk to make drain punch really worth it.

 

Golduck: I feel like in almost all scenarios you would rather just have your own weather to reset the opponents weather rather than having to run a sub par mon just to remove it.

 

Seismitoad: It does some things but it is really very niche. If you are looking for a bulky support Swampert is better than it in most aspects. If you are looking for it to be a rain sweeper kabu outclasses it. Ground stab doesn't seem very splashable or required on a rain team.

 

Machamp: Kinda weak since we have only 1/3 confusion chance. Doesn't really do much that top/breloom/conk don't do better.

 

Medicham: Read Mienshao

 

Mamoswine: In theory should be good against dragons with ice shard or scarf but struggles a lot vs follow me and with rotom being everywhere it doesn't really do much.

 

Darmanitan: Just an infernape with a worse movepool, doesn't live anything without sash, doesn't outspeed anything it needs to without scarf.

 

Scrafty: Read Machamp, kinda sucks until we get HAs.

 

Excavalier: Movepool isn't that great for doubles. Struggles a lot vs the common intimidate mons . As far as TR sweepers there are just better options, and scizor for the most part outclasses it with it's plethora of support moves.

 

Got some thoughts about other things in the other tiers that I think should be moved, will post that later.

All moved to D Tier! :)

[Rakhmaninov]

(message removed)

Edited June 6, 2020 by Rakhmaninov

[Zigh]

 

On 6/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, redbluegreen said:

Dusclops: It really doesn't do anything unique. Sure it's bulky but in comparison to all the other TR mons it is by far the weakest after getting taunted and even if it does get TR off it is the least threatening out of all of them inside of TR. It just seems too passive to even make use of the 4 turns you should have to go aggressive inside of TR.

Extremely bulky, will stay for a long time + has great support moves. Just for that is worth C or even B-. Taunt kinda shuts it down, but that doesnt mean is useless. Also is not passive, you are kinda biased comparing it to things like reuniclus. They dont serve the same purpose.

On 6/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, redbluegreen said:

Mienshao: As far as fast fake outs go it gets outclassed by infernape. Mien doesn't even have a reliable fighting stab since HJK is a huge risk in doubles where protect is everywhere so it has to restort to using Drain Punch without having any bulk to make drain punch really worth it.

 

105 Base speed with fake out + feint access, REGENERATOR, enough stats to be run mixed and 0hko a good chunk of the top meta a D tier? are we insane? Infernape might be better, but that doesnt mean is a bad mon

On 6/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, redbluegreen said:

Mamoswine: In theory should be good against dragons with ice shard or scarf but struggles a lot vs follow me and with rotom being everywhere it doesn't really do much.

... just no. "struggles a lot against follow me". It only struggles against blastoise, is an amazing mon against togekiss/amoongus/electabuzz/lucario. Also rotom is not a valid reason to put it lower.

 

On 6/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, redbluegreen said:

Darmanitan: Just an infernape with a worse movepool, doesn't live anything without sash, doesn't outspeed anything it needs to without scarf.

A mon that when scarfed, could literally sweep your entire team if it has enough support. I see

On 6/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, redbluegreen said:

Scrafty: Read Machamp, kinda sucks until we get HAs.

Scrafty's intimidate is much better than moxie in doubles. Cheking ur "read machamp": " Doesn't really do much that top/breloom/conk don't do better. " You are comparing a C tier mon to what it should be a Top S/A+. That's just stupid. Is in C tier for reasons. Also it does a better job than breloom/conkeldurr in many cases, they dont serve the same purpose.

 

Won't talk about other mons coz I don't like them either, but still think they deserve C tier.

 

Quoting the C tier description

" (Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Doubles metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.)"

 

and now D tier description

" (Reserved for pokemon which only carry out a very limited function and are easily outclassed by other Pokemon in higher rankings)"

 

how could you say all of those mons deserve to be in D tier? literally all of those can do an outstanding job with the correct team; furthermore they can be used in multiple teams, not just 1 gimmick 1 trick team.