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gbwead

[LC Discussion] Arena Trap

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Following Misdreavus’ ban, LC seems to be in a very bad state; several threats lost an important check. As great supports for these threats, Arena Trap users (Diglett and Trapinch) are being considered as uncompetitive and potentially banworthy by the Tier Council.

 

For instance, there are multiple fighting resistances in LC that can beat Mienfoo, but most of them can be taken out by Arena Trap users. With access to Stealth Rocks and Memento, Diglett supports also Clamperl extremely well. On top of that, Diglett also takes out most of Clamperl checks and counters, like Tentacool, Chinchou and Elekid Scarf. Gastly that used to be overshadowed by Misdreavus is now roaming free and Stunky, perhaps its best check, is very vulnerable to Arena Trap users.

 

Feel free to give your input regarding Arena Trap users in LC in this thread.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

More like just ban Arena Trap in every tier/format. And Shadow Tag too.

I agree, it’s not like their uncompetitiveness is exclusive to LC 

Edited by Zymogen

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Zymogen said:

I agree, it’s not like their uncompetitiveness is exclusive to LC 

50% of LC teams use arena trap, so there is an enormous amount of uncompetitiveness in LC compared to other tiers

Edited by gbwead

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we should do a suspect test of arena trap for one or two months and then see if viable counter of mienfoo and gastly increases their percentage of use.

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

50% of LC teams use arena trap, so there is an enormous amount of uncompetitiveness in LC compared to other tiers

This isn't accurate, if some of those teams are running dual arena trap for whatever reason, we do not know.

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2 minutes ago, Munya said:

This isn't accurate, if some of those teams are running dual arena trap for whatever reason, we do not know.

That's probably even worse.

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Its worth considering the problem isn't arena trap but the sweepers themselves, specifically clamperl. Its odd to say that arena trap makes clamperl op when even without arena trap its still op. With little to no help it still beats tentacool and chinchou.

 

Gastly is a touch easier, with a few fat boys around in porygon and lax as well as im sure a couple pursuiters but those will lose out to trapinch, they aren't as afraid of diglett.

 

Foo is fairly manageable even now, with koffing, probably some ghost boys, budew, does foongus get regen yet? do people run zubat? i couldnt find usage anywhere blame munya.

 

tldr; ban clamperl first, then suspect test trapinch, then suspect test diglett. 

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was no LC usage for Feb due to the half way through month ban.

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6 hours ago, gbwead said:

50% of LC teams use arena trap, so there is an enormous amount of uncompetitiveness in LC compared to other tiers

I don’t disagree that they play a larger part in the LC meta, but my point is that they’re still uncompetitive regardless of the tier/format

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People are often complaining that Mienfoo and Clamperl are a huge thread within LC.

 

Where Mienfoo could be the issue due to U-Turn + Regenerator. The only pokemon that can switch in semi safely is Trubbish to contest a speed tie, Gastly can outspeed it but you'd need to predict pretty well for that. All other checks/ counters are slower than Mienfoo, giving it the opportunity to chip the poke a little with U-Turn, heal 6-8 health with Regenerator. Making it increasingly more difficult to wittle it down, not taking into consideration that Diglett/ Trapinch can come in and take care of the check/ counter of Mienfoo. From the top of my head only Grimer can handle Diglett, if the Grimer is Brave with Giga Drain and Shadow Sneak.

 

Clamperl has it's specific item being Deepseatooth which can 1hk0 pretty much the entire tier after Stealth Rocks are up. Without Deepseatooth Clamperl can be considered a whole lot less threatening. Looking at the fact that complex bans are being considered in banning Arena Trap, considering Deepseatooth should be an option. At that point Eviolite Clamperl needs +4 spatk to run rampage, since +2 doesn't get many K0's.

 

Gastly is a glass cannon, there are quite a hand full of pokemons that can naturally outspeed it.

 

As for Arena Trap in general. It is a cheap way to kill pokemon without the opponent having many options to counteract the play. At the time of the Diglett test ban Trapinch took a huge rise in usage, this was arguable to fill the gap of Arena Trap. Diglett might still see usage without Arena Trap, Trapinch most likely very little.

 

A test ban on Arena Trap for now to me sounds like a good step.

Potentially following by a test ban of Deepseatooth.

 

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I'm for a test ban on deepseatooth + Arena trap + Regenerator + magnet pull ez

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10 minutes ago, pachima said:

Either ban trapping abilities everywhere, or don´t at all.

Aside from Wobbuffet with Tickle that is beyond broken and should probably be banned, trapping abilities are not that common in other tiers. However, in LC, Arena Trap is literally everywhere. 

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12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Aside from Wobbuffet with Tickle that is beyond broken and should probably be banned, trapping abilities are not that common in other tiers. However, in LC, Arena Trap is literally everywhere. 

brokeness/uncompetitiveness shouldnt have anything to do with usage. In fact, while its true tickle Wobby is broken af, its usage in OU is super low.

The mechanic itself is uncompetitive and should be banned, period.

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8 hours ago, YettoDie said:

People are often complaining that Mienfoo and Clamperl are a huge thread within LC.

 

Where Mienfoo could be the issue due to U-Turn + Regenerator. The only pokemon that can switch in semi safely is Trubbish to contest a speed tie, Gastly can outspeed it but you'd need to predict pretty well for that. All other checks/ counters are slower than Mienfoo, giving it the opportunity to chip the poke a little with U-Turn, heal 6-8 health with Regenerator. Making it increasingly more difficult to wittle it down, not taking into consideration that Diglett/ Trapinch can come in and take care of the check/ counter of Mienfoo. From the top of my head only Grimer can handle Diglett, if the Grimer is Brave with Giga Drain and Shadow Sneak.

 

Clamperl has it's specific item being Deepseatooth which can 1hk0 pretty much the entire tier after Stealth Rocks are up. Without Deepseatooth Clamperl can be considered a whole lot less threatening. Looking at the fact that complex bans are being considered in banning Arena Trap, considering Deepseatooth should be an option. At that point Eviolite Clamperl needs +4 spatk to run rampage, since +2 doesn't get many K0's.

 

Gastly is a glass cannon, there are quite a hand full of pokemons that can naturally outspeed it.

 

As for Arena Trap in general. It is a cheap way to kill pokemon without the opponent having many options to counteract the play. At the time of the Diglett test ban Trapinch took a huge rise in usage, this was arguable to fill the gap of Arena Trap. Diglett might still see usage without Arena Trap, Trapinch most likely very little.

 

A test ban on Arena Trap for now to me sounds like a good step.

Potentially following by a test ban of Deepseatooth.

 

This is probably not a huge distinction, but keep in mind that banning deepseatooth or banning arena trap is not a complex ban. It's only a complex ban when you ban it on certain pokemon (like, for example, banning draco meteor on hydreigon)

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If there is one thing that the Diglett test ban showed, it's that Clamperl is not a big threat without Diglett and its usage dropped considerably during the test ban that only lasted 3 months.

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12 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Its worth considering the problem isn't arena trap but the sweepers themselves, specifically clamperl. Its odd to say that arena trap makes clamperl op when even without arena trap its still op. With little to no help it still beats tentacool and chinchou.

With diglett, you just have to play clamp surf Shell smash and hp fire. Without diglett, hp fire can't win against tentacool or chinchou; hp elec wins vs tentacool but not against chinchou or ferro; with hp grass, u can't kill ferro.

Without diglett, countering clamp is much easier, but with diglett u just run hp fire and nothing can perfectly counter that.

 

The only clamp's counter Who is not countered by diglett rn is frilish.

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16 minutes ago, DrakeHope said:

With diglett, you just have to play clamp surf Shell smash and hp fire. Without diglett, hp fire can't win against tentacool or chinchou; hp elec wins vs tentacool but not against chinchou or ferro; with hp grass, u can't kill ferro.

Without diglett, countering clamp is much easier, but with diglett u just run hp fire and nothing can perfectly counter that.

 

The only clamp's counter Who is not countered by diglett rn is frilish.

and mantyke. And deep sea scale clamperl. Finally, although at lesser extent, eviolite munchlax.

By the way, we are throwing away the "Counters are a meanginless argument" when it suits, is it?

 

Not saying Clamperl isnt banworthy, but by these arguments, there are plenty of other stuff that are in the same boat, and aren´t discussed/banned and I want consistency.

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

If there is one thing that the Diglett test ban showed, it's that Clamperl is not a big threat without Diglett and its usage dropped considerably during the test ban that only lasted 3 months.

But Diglett won't be banned, while yes, it will be slightly more difficult to take care of Clamperls checks and counters. It'll still leave the potential open for Clamperl to set up. The test ban lasted three entire months, that is a quarter of a year. A good span of time passed.

 

9 hours ago, Laz said:

I'm for a test ban on deepseatooth + Arena trap + Regenerator + magnet pull ez

Magnet pull doesn't seem to be an issue within LC, only 2 pokemons get it, being Magnemite and Nosepass. The main steel types in the tier, Bronzor, Ferroseed, Magnemite and Pawniard.

Some damages.

Spoiler
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 64 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)
 
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 20)

 

240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
 
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

 

Hp Fire is mainly only better for Ferroseed and other Magnemite

If the opponent has a Trace Porygon, Magnemite has become a potential stuck magnet. Magnemite is not nearly the same thread as Diglett is.

 

Clamperl has technically more checks, but it'd depends on which moveset it carries. Generally speaking Ferroseed + Frillish present a decent core, even outside the Clamperl counter.

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2 hours ago, YettoDie said:

But Diglett won't be banned, while yes, it will be slightly more difficult to take care of Clamperls checks and counters. It'll still leave the potential open for Clamperl to set up. The test ban lasted three entire months, that is a quarter of a year. A good span of time passed.

 

Magnet pull doesn't seem to be an issue within LC, only 2 pokemons get it, being Magnemite and Nosepass. The main steel types in the tier, Bronzor, Ferroseed, Magnemite and Pawniard.

Some damages.

  Reveal hidden contents
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 64 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)
 
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 20)

 

240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
 
240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

 

Hp Fire is mainly only better for Ferroseed and other Magnemite

If the opponent has a Trace Porygon, Magnemite has become a potential stuck magnet. Magnemite is not nearly the same thread as Diglett is.

 

Clamperl has technically more checks, but it'd depends on which moveset it carries. Generally speaking Ferroseed + Frillish present a decent core, even outside the Clamperl counter.

I disagree

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, gbwead said:

If there is one thing that the Diglett test ban showed, it's that Clamperl is not a big threat without Diglett and its usage dropped considerably during the test ban that only lasted 3 months.

From 26% usage in december  to 30% in january is not near enough of a difference to come to this conclusion.

 

Under further investigation, it seems that clamperl did take a dip after the ban of diglett, from 30% to 18% from september to october. But it steadily rose from 18% to 26% (Oct-Jan), independently of diglett. This rise seems to suggest that clamperl is a threat withtout diglett, but certainly diglett had some effect on clamperl's usage.

Edited by RLotus

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RLotus said:

From 26% usage in december  to 30% in january is not near enough of a difference to come to this conclusion.

 

Under further investigation, it seems that clamperl did take a dip after the ban of diglett, from 30% to 18% from september to october. But it steadily rose from 18% to 26% (Oct-Jan), independently of diglett. This rise seems to suggest that clamperl is a threat withtout diglett, but certainly diglett had some effect on clamperl's usage.

First month of the test ban:

  • Diglett went from 12th most used pokemon (14.57%) to not used anymore (0%). -14.57%
  • Clamperl went from 6th most used pokemon (29.80%) to 7th most used pokemon (22.49%). -7.31%
  • Trapinch went from barely used (0.99%) to 27th most used pokemon (4.31%). +4.31%

Second month of the test ban:

  • Diglett still at 0%.
  • Clamperl goes from 7th most used pokemon (22.49%) to 9th most used pokemon (18.64%). -3.85%
  • Trapinch goes from 27th most used pokemon (4.31%) to 25th most used pokemon (5.38%). +1.07%

Third month of the test ban:

  • Diglett still at 0%.
  • Clamperl goes from 9th most used pokemon (18.64%) to 6th most used pokemon (26.40%). +7.76%
  • Trapinch goes from 25th most used pokemon (5.38%) to 20th most used pokemon (7.36%). +1.98%

First month after the test ban:

  • Diglett went from not used anymore (0%) to 9th most used pokemon (19.30%). +19.30%
  • Clamperl goes from 6th most used pokemon (26.40%) to 5th most used pokemon (30.93%). +4.53%
  • Trapinch goes from 25th most used pokemon (7.36%) to 24th most used pokemon (5.58%). -1.78%

We have very low usage to work with, but considering that in the last 6 months, the only time Clamperl went below 20% was during the test ban, I think it's clear that Clamperl without Diglett is just not that good, not bad, but certainly not as problematic. 

 

Edited by gbwead

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