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LifeStyleNORE

Time to do some "balancing" on Garchomp

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derpy_garchomp_by_mrargon-d59eyn7.jpg

  HP: 108

           Attack: 130

Defense: 95

Sp. Atk: 80

Sp. Def: 85

Speed: 102

 

Garchomp is one of the most versatile pokemon in OU right now. Great offensive typing (and not too shabby defensively either), amazing stat distribution consisting of a special speed mark (102), well above-average bulk (108, 95, 85), a terrifying 130 Attack and very usable 80 Special Attack stats. To top it off, it has access to a plethora of moves that will make your opponent guess what kind of set he's running into (yes I said he because girls don't play comp mons). I've seen these things run Rocks + 3 Attacks (usually Mixed), SD Sub, SD Mixed, Choice Band, or even Scarf without busted Outrage. Now, all of these sets have their answers, the problem is when those answers lose to luck:

 

Sand VeilIf Sandstorm is active, this Pokemon's evasiveness is multiplied by 1.25.

 

Now, I do need to point out that we don't have permanent weather and that Rain is a thing, blah blah blah. You also need to set up Sand with Tyranitar or Hippo. OR YOU DON'T, because your opponent might just do that for you instead. Since Sand (or maybe just Tyranitar) is a very good playstyle, this increases the chances that Sand Veil will get some use, meaning you might lose because a Garchomp managed to dodge the most important Ice Beam ever. To me, Garchomp as a whole, paired with the luck factor from Sand Veil, makes it Uber worthy.

 

However, this made me think: what if Garchomp didn't have Sand Veil? What if it could only use Rough Skin? 

 

And this is where my Suggestion comes in: Replace Sand Veil on Garchomp with Rough Skin. Yeah, I know Rough Skin is its HA and those are planned for Dungeons, whatever. I think an exception can be made here for "balancing" purposes. An example of something else that was done to keep a Pokemon out of Ubers was removing Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's moveset.

 

If you agree then don't forget to like, upvote, subscribe to my Youtube channel (jk I don't have one) and all that good shit. Peace.

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
devs pls respond. this post was effort

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

This is 100% correct. Giving Rough Skin instead of Sand Veil to Garchomp is a buff, not a nerf.

Sure, but the way I see it this is not really about making it stronger or weaker, it's about making it more realiable to play against, more competitive if you will. Kind of the same reason sand veil was once banned from smogon but rough skin never was even if the later was preffered in most builds.

 

You can accomodate and have a gameplan to deal with rough skin garchomp, even moreso if tank sets arise which are arguably less threatening or easier to deal with in a vacum, ofcourse these builds obviously support the team better but as a standalone they are a lesser threat. However, when your ice beam misses garchomp in sand as it goes to +2 that throws your entire gameplan out the window which is what makes dealing with garchomp inconsistent and that is the real problem and what I believe the angle of the discussion is meant to be.

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On 3/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, Kyu said:

If I had to pick, I think our favorite method of nerfing Garchomp would be to remove its evasion in PvP, effectively giving it no ability. Rough Skin Chomp is still very strong

This would probably be the best solution

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11 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

I read it several times. I still see you talking about the Pokémon as if it were impossible to counter it. And ironically, a Nerf is asked to strengthen him further. If I am wrong, it would be good to point out my mistake instead of asking me to read again, because I will see the same thing, brother ... greetings. :D

 

 

Presentacion Forum.jpg

That is the complete opposite of what I said, but I guess I'll help you.

"Now, all of these sets have their answers, the problem is when those answers lose to luck"

I never argued that Chomp is uncounterable, I argued that any possible answers can get thrown out of the window if Sand Veil plays a factor. Evasion is uncompetitive, Sand Veil is Evasion, therefore Sand Veil is uncompetitive. Is it less uncompetitive than something like Double Team or Brightpowder? Sure, but it is uncompetitive nonetheless. I suggested replacing Sand Veil with Rough Skin, because unlike Sand Veil, Rough Skin is NOT UNCOMPETITIVE. And from a game design standpoint, it looks less stupid than disabling the effect of an ability. But at this point I'll take either.

 

Also completely unrelated but for god's sake, that is not how you setup a sig...

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6 hours ago, iJulian said:

Sure, but the way I see it this is not really about making it stronger or weaker, it's about making it more realiable to play against, more competitive if you will. Kind of the same reason sand veil was once banned from smogon but rough skin never was even if the later was preffered in most builds.

Rough Skin would make Garchomp reliably more broken and broken mons do not favor a more competitive environment. I might be wrong, but when Sand Veil got banned gen 4, I don't think Garchomp got unbanned. It's honestly ridiculous to ask for a sand veil ban/disable/replacement and even more ridduclous to support that idea based on what happened in DPP.

 

6 hours ago, iJulian said:

You can accomodate and have a gameplan to deal with rough skin garchomp, even moreso if tank sets arise which are arguably less threatening or easier to deal with in a vacum, ofcourse these builds obviously support the team better but as a standalone they are a lesser threat. However, when your ice beam misses garchomp in sand as it goes to +2 that throws your entire gameplan out the window which is what makes dealing with garchomp inconsistent and that is the real problem and what I believe the angle of the discussion is meant to be.

There are only 2 mons that can wall Garchomp. Mandibuzz and Umbreon. That's it. If you give Garchomp Rough Skin, these two walls will become extremely shaky. Ice Beam walls like P2 and Milotic Flame Orb will consistently lose to Yache Garchomp, so they are not counters, just checks. 

 

I think Garchomp is broken. You guys don't think it is. Fine. However, please have some self respect guys; this suggestion is pure madness and should absolutely not be supported or considered.

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10 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Rough Skin would make Garchomp reliably more broken and broken mons do not favor a more competitive environment. I might be wrong, but when Sand Veil got banned gen 4, I don't think Garchomp got unbanned

Because it had no other abilities and because Smogon policies didn't support changing game mechanics unlike ours (lol because baton pass clause totally changed mechanics)

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6 minutes ago, suigin said:

Because it had no other abilities and because Smogon policies didn't support changing game mechanics unlike ours (lol because baton pass clause totally changed mechanics)

This. Wtf gbwead...

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4 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Not really

I saw it like this:

  • It would centralizate the teambuilding.
  • It would be an unhealthy u-turn punisher.
  • Wally playstyle boosted, more 2 hours duel ---> tourneys of 1000000000 hours.

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9 minutes ago, soyhector said:

I saw it like this:

  • It would centralizate the teambuilding.
  • It would be an unhealthy u-turn punisher.
  • Wally playstyle boosted, more 2 hours duel ---> tourneys of 1000000000 hours.

Lmfao

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9 minutes ago, soyhector said:

I saw it like this:

  • It would centralizate the teambuilding.
  • It would be an unhealthy u-turn punisher.
  • Wally playstyle boosted, more 2 hours duel ---> tourneys of 1000000000 hours.

Bulky chomp was never really a stall staple and even then stall right now is pretty damn unviable.

I don't see how punishing U-Turn is unhealthy at all either.

About it centralizing teambuilding I don't think it'd have to do with Rough Skin at all.

 

I do agree though that giving it Rough Skin would overall make it stronger.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, suigin said:

Bulky chomp was never really a stall staple and even then stall right now is pretty damn unviable.

I don't see how punishing U-Turn is unhealthy at all either.

About it centralizing teambuilding I don't think it'd have to do with Rough Skin at all.

 

I do agree though that giving it Rough Skin would overall make it stronger.

U-turn punishers are not generally unhealthy, im talking about Garchomp like a particular case. By the reason of its type it would be Voltswitch and U-turn punisher at same time, and thanks of its movepool and versatility neither steel pokes have free switch against Garchomp (Fire Blast).

I talked about centralizing because using U-turn wont be realiable like now, and for example Darmanitan, Physical Infernape, spinners and probably some other pokes would be harmed.

Edited by soyhector

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5 minutes ago, soyhector said:

using U-turn wont be realiable like now, and for example Darmanitan and Physical Infernape, Tentacruel spinner and probably some other pokes would be harmed.

And why is it a bad thing?

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6 minutes ago, GaloisField said:

And why is it a bad thing?

 

5 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

If anything, we need more ways to punish u-turn. Lol

Oh god. Why i lost my time explaining?

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On 3/7/2020 at 5:00 PM, soyhector said:

 

Oh god. Why i lost my time explaining?

Pls tell me, how's it so unhealthy again? Make a drawing for us to understand please. But this time include why its unhealthy, not why its good like you did previously.

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2 minutes ago, raddevil said:

ice shard. done.

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 116-140 (63.3 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Almost done xD

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, razimove said:

Pls tell me, how's it so unhealthy again? Make a drawing for us to understand please. But this time include why its unhealthy, not why its good like you did previously.

I explained it previously, it would centralize and perjudicate offensive playstyle. Please read carefully what I wrote before if you are not going to add new information or discuss something new, so you dont make me waste time.

Edited by soyhector

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I don't know if that its possible but how we have dugtrio with base atk nerfed (by old gen), maybe use the base speed of mega-garchomp on garchomp could be a big nerf, just as option.

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The core issue at hand here is luck. You can argue all you want whether Garchomp is over powered by itself but when you pair it with the ability to dodge it can get out of hand very easily. Lets say you have a Garchomp with a set of:

  • Substitute
  • Swords Dance
  • Earthquake
  • Dragon Claw

This set can use substitute 4 times, that is 4 chances it gets a free substitute in the sand, this is pretty brainless to spam with a good payoff when it works. Keep in mind after it gets the substitute it will swords dance without a care then proceed to sweep you because you missed a move that should have hit. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. Garchomp can possibly get lucky enough to dodge moves while behind a substitute or go for a risky kill in the sand if it dodges. This is extremely uncompetitive and leaves the other player feeling that it was out of their control. Now we all know moves can miss but those moves usually have significant upsides like huge base power or good secondary traits, sand veil makes every move (apart from garbage moves that state they will hit without fail e.g. aerial ace) the opponent makes have a chance to miss. 

 

I would like to talk about sand briefly here because it is was enables sand veil to work. We have two sand stream setters in OU which are both good being Tyranitar and Hippowdon. It is a fair assumption to make that with 13.8% (Tyranitar) and 7.25% (Hippowdon) usage you will encounter sand setters roughly 1/5 to 1/6 games by your opponent. What I am trying to say here is sand veil has a very reasonable chance to be active in a duel especially if you bring your own setter to initiate it.

 

I think removing or swapping sand veil would be the best course of action to balance Garchomp.

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