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LifeStyleNORE

Time to do some "balancing" on Garchomp

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derpy_garchomp_by_mrargon-d59eyn7.jpg

  HP: 108

           Attack: 130

Defense: 95

Sp. Atk: 80

Sp. Def: 85

Speed: 102

 

Garchomp is one of the most versatile pokemon in OU right now. Great offensive typing (and not too shabby defensively either), amazing stat distribution consisting of a special speed mark (102), well above-average bulk (108, 95, 85), a terrifying 130 Attack and very usable 80 Special Attack stats. To top it off, it has access to a plethora of moves that will make your opponent guess what kind of set he's running into (yes I said he because girls don't play comp mons). I've seen these things run Rocks + 3 Attacks (usually Mixed), SD Sub, SD Mixed, Choice Band, or even Scarf without busted Outrage. Now, all of these sets have their answers, the problem is when those answers lose to luck:

 

Sand VeilIf Sandstorm is active, this Pokemon's evasiveness is multiplied by 1.25.

 

Now, I do need to point out that we don't have permanent weather and that Rain is a thing, blah blah blah. You also need to set up Sand with Tyranitar or Hippo. OR YOU DON'T, because your opponent might just do that for you instead. Since Sand (or maybe just Tyranitar) is a very good playstyle, this increases the chances that Sand Veil will get some use, meaning you might lose because a Garchomp managed to dodge the most important Ice Beam ever. To me, Garchomp as a whole, paired with the luck factor from Sand Veil, makes it Uber worthy.

 

However, this made me think: what if Garchomp didn't have Sand Veil? What if it could only use Rough Skin? 

 

And this is where my Suggestion comes in: Replace Sand Veil on Garchomp with Rough Skin. Yeah, I know Rough Skin is its HA and those are planned for Dungeons, whatever. I think an exception can be made here for "balancing" purposes. An example of something else that was done to keep a Pokemon out of Ubers was removing Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's moveset.

 

If you agree then don't forget to like, upvote, subscribe to my Youtube channel (jk I don't have one) and all that good shit. Peace.

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
devs pls respond. this post was effort

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6 hours ago, GaloL48 said:

What next? make Serene Grace in Togekiss Uber too?, the RNG was always part of the game

I think it's a bit silly to compare Serene Grace with Sand Veil. Serene Grace, coupled with Air Slash gives Togekiss a 60% chance to flinch slower opponents. You have various options of dealing with a Togekiss. You can choose to run something that deals with Togekiss (after a setup) effectively, such as SPDef Aerodactyl, Timid Haze Milotic, Timid PainSplit Rotom or even SPDef Haze Dragonite with Inner Focus. Don't even get me started on the offensive side, plus the fact that Togekiss loses 25% HP to Rocks.

Sand Veil on the other hand, completely removes the game from your hands. It can turn situations in which you should have won a matchup into a loss, because Garchomp just killed your counter after setting up a SD behind a Sub or dodging your revenge killer move. What option do you have against Sand Veil? Run Aerial Ace? Aura Sphere? Not to mention that Garchomp already has way more limited options for checks/counters than a Togekiss...

4 hours ago, Risadex said:

Are you really asking to ban RNG? Cus thats pointless to me. Just remember people asking to ban body slam from snorlax and look what happened...

 

The same way you loose one match for a miss focus blast or stone edge, you loose to a miss from sand veil.

 

Even with 1/24 crit chance there's still crits, RNG wll be rng as always.

No, I'm asking to remove an aspect that makes Garchomp uncompetitive. We have an Evasion Clause that only mentions the use of moves that increase Evasion (i.e. Double Team, Minimize) and an OP Item Clause in which we have Brightpowder, that also increases Evasion. Maybe I should have made a Suggestion to just ban Sand Veil / Snow Cloak, but I think it's been settled that Sand Veil is only uncompetitive on Garchomp because of the nature of the mon as a whole. I recommend that you search for keyword "Garchomp" on this link and see for yourself. https://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history (tl;dr - Garchomp was banned because of Sand Veil, then Sand Veil was banned, then Garchomp was brought back because it gained a new ability in Rough Skin). I don't think we need to go with the same route though, because again, only Sand Veil Garchomp is broken (and sometimes, Gliscor I guess).

As for your Focus Blast/Stone Edge argument, when you choose to run moves like those, you assume the risk of using them (Lower accuracy for more power). Losing to Sand Veil on the other hand, has nothing to do with that..

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2 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I think it's a bit silly to compare Serene Grace with Sand Veil. Serene Grace, coupled with Air Slash gives Togekiss a 60% chance to flinch slower opponents. You have various options of dealing with a Togekiss. You can choose to run something that deals with Togekiss (after a setup) effectively, such as SPDef Aerodactyl, Timid Haze Milotic, Timid PainSplit Rotom or even SPDef Haze Dragonite with Inner Focus. Don't even get me started on the offensive side, plus the fact that Togekiss loses 25% HP to Rocks.

Sand Veil on the other hand, completely removes the game from your hands. It can turn situations in which you should have won a matchup into a loss, because Garchomp just killed your counter after setting up a SD behind a Sub or dodging your revenge killer move. What option do you have against Sand Veil? Run Aerial Ace? Aura Sphere? Not to mention that Garchomp already has way more limited options for checks/counters than a Togekiss...

Its the same point, the both can ruin you with the RNG, and no one team have all covered, like ex:Togekiss scarf can fuck you up with air slash who can flinch in every attack, you also can lose because a miss against Garchomp, You have various options of dealing with a Togekiss Garchomp in sand storm, You can choose to run something that deals with Garchomp: Ice moves/Dragon moves/priority moves/focus sash/always hit moves/status/weather/counters.
If we gonna start to ban things only because a bad match up or because a RNG turn can make us lose we gonna need start to ban various pokemon.

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13 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I guess we just need fairies

Please, no. You hurt me badly saying this :'(

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30 minutes ago, GaloL48 said:

Its the same point, the both can ruin you with the RNG, and no one team have all covered, like ex:Togekiss scarf can fuck you up with air slash who can flinch in every attack, you also can lose because a miss against Garchomp, You have various options of dealing with a Togekiss Garchomp in sand storm, You can choose to run something that deals with Garchomp: Ice moves/Dragon moves/priority moves/focus sash/always hit moves/status/weather/counters.
If we gonna start to ban things only because a bad match up or because a RNG turn can make us lose we gonna need start to ban various pokemon.

1. Scarf Togekiss is garbage, literally the worst set Togekiss can run. I can actually name x10 answers to scarf kiss than to NP roost kiss.

2. You obviously don't get the difference between RNG and Uncompetitive. Until you do, there's no point arguing any longer.

3. Out of everything you named, only "always hit moves" are relevant, and as I've said before, the options are limited and not viable against Chomp. Aerial Ace? lol. As if I never knew that Ice moves kill a Garchomp, how does that matter when they miss? While they should be hitting 100% of the time?

Sure, you can change weather, but going to Pelipper gives Chomp a free sub anyways, which probably results in a free kill afterwards.

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I don't get it. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have never been an issue before in MMO. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have supposedly never been an issue in any meta without perma weather. Why would Sand Veil be an issue on Garchomp in MMO? It just isn't. This thread existence just shows there is a problem with Garchomp, but fails to demonstrate that Sand Veil is the problem. Sand Veil might be uncompetitive, but it remains a complete garbage ability in MMO. There are also a ton of uncompetitive things in Pokemon competitive battling, but not everything gets disabled, nerfed or banned. Something needs to be insanely uncompetitive in order to get banned and Sand Veil without permanent weather is just not impressive at all. Sure, you might lose some duels because of a miss. You might also get frozen by Ice Beam (10%), burned by Scald (30%) or flinched by Air Slash from Togekiss (57%). 25% evasion only in sand is really not a big deal considering sand only last 5 turns and most of those turns are wasted when Ttar/Hippo switch in and out. Realistically, Garchomp will get maybe 1 or 2 turns at best in sand while getting hit, that's no different from doing Stone Edge to kill a Volcarona. 

 

Everyone knows there is a problem with Garchomp, but it seems so many want Garchomp to stay in OU at all cost that they choose to pretend nothing is wrong aside from Sand Veil, the most insignificant part of what makes Garchomp so overpowered.

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Just now, gbwead said:

I don't get it. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have never been an issue before in MMO. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have supposedly never been an issue in any meta without perma weather.

I already said that Garchomp is the one true abuser of Sand Veil (and to some extent, Gliscor). That ability becomes more uncompetitive the stronger its user is. The reason you don't see Sand Veil Chomp being broken in non perma weather metas, is because non perma weather became a thing in gen6, and along with that fairy type was introduced.

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

There are also a ton of uncompetitive things in Pokemon competitive battling, but not everything gets disabled, nerfed or banned.

Ok, name them then.

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

25% evasion only in sand is really not a big deal considering sand only last 5 turns and most of those turns are wasted when Ttar/Hippo switch in and out. Realistically, Garchomp will get maybe 1 or 2 turns at best in sand while getting hit

Those 5 turns can be 8 and you can actually just abuse Sand Veil Chomp if your opponent is running Hippo or Tyranitar, which I believe most teams do? So being able to potentially setup on a counter's face and kill it because the said counter is missing its moves is not a big deal?

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27 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Ok, name them then.

I did...

27 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Those 5 turns can be 8 and you can actually just abuse Sand Veil Chomp if your opponent is running Hippo or Tyranitar, which I believe most teams do?

No, not even close. Ttar and Hippo rarely play Smooth Rock. The only time Hippo/Ttar play smooth rock is for Excadrill and let's be honest any core involving Garchomp + Excadrill together on top of Ttar/Hippo is trash. The only reason why people get away with it is because Garchomp is a Uber mon in OU (not because of Sand Veil).

 

27 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

So being able to potentially setup on a counter's face and kill it because the said counter is missing its moves is not a big deal?

What counters? Mandibuzz? Umbreon? Those can't even make it in OU by usage. The biggest threat in the tier destroys everything in its path, but its counters can't even make it in OU. There is something seriously wrong here and everyone know Sand Veil has absolutely nothing to do with Mandibuzz and Umbreon not being OU by usage. The worst part in all of this is that Mandibuzz and Umbreon can barely handle Garchomp already and you want to buff Garchomp with Rough Skin to make Garchomp even more difficult to deal with.

 

A lot of mons can set up on a counter's face. Volcarona can set up on Scarf Stone Edge Ttar. The only reason why people are not complaining about it is because there are a lot of options for dealing with Volcarona. When it comes to Garchomp, there are no options to deal with it in the first place. We got some revenge killers here and there that can 2HKO Garchomp and that's pretty much it. Do I care about missing a move on Garchomp? No, because most mons remotely decent against Garchomp need two hits to kill it anyways...

Edited by gbwead

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27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I did...

Where?

27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

No, not even close. Ttar and Hippo rarely play Smooth Rock. The only time Hippo/Ttar play smooth rock is for Excadrill and let's be honest any core involving Garchomp + Excadrill together on top of Ttar/Hippo is trash. The only reason why people get away with it is because Garchomp is a Uber mon in OU (not because of Sand Veil).

Yeah, I know Smooth Rock is not common and it's not an item I would even consider using. But it's a possibility regardless. Tyranitar had 13.38% and Hippo had 7.25%, in a month where people got new toys to play with so I'd say they're common enough for Chomp's ability to be working. I would bother searching for replays where Garchomp won a match ONLY because of Sand Veil, but the replay system in this game is too trash and time-consuming so uhhh, no thanks.

30 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What counters? Mandibuzz? Umbreon? Those can't even make it in OU by usage. The biggest threat in the tier destroys everything in its path, but its counters can't even make it in OU. There is something seriously wrong here and everyone know Sand Veil has absolutely nothing to do with Mandibuzz and Umbreon not being OU by usage. The worst part in all of this is that Mandibuzz and Umbreon can barely handle Garchomp already and you want to buff Garchomp with Rough Skin to make Garchomp even more difficult to deal with.

 

A lot of mons can set up on a counter's face. Volcarona can set up on Scarf Stone Edge Ttar. The only reason why people are not complaining about it is because there are a lot of options for dealing with Volcarona. When it comes to Garchomp, there are no options to deal with it in the first place. We got some revenge killers here and there that can 2HKO Garchomp and that's pretty much it. Do I care about missing a move on Garchomp? No, because most mons remotely decent against Garchomp need two hits to kill it anyways...

Flame Orb Milotic is a counter, Bronzong is a counter, Mandibuzz is a counter, though they all depend on what set Garchomp is running. The one thing they have in common is that all of them can lose to Sand Veil. I don't get how Rough Skin makes Chomp more difficult to deal with than Sand Veil, if anything it would probably tempt people to run more defensive sets for Chomp.

Scarf Tyranitar is not a Volcarona counter.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 205-244 (116.4 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Running Stone Edge is a risk that YOU choose to make, not something taken completely off your hands to a lucky SV miss.

But since you mention Volcarona, let me demonstrate this example. Volcarona is against a Ferrothorn, you switch into CB Azumarill and Volcarona goes +1. All good right? I mean Azumarill has Aqua Jet so you're fine. 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 180-212 (112.5 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now imagine that Volcarona has Sand Veil and sandstorm is up. You miss Aqua Jet and this happens.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 205-244 (104.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now apply this to Garchomp on any similar scenario.

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18 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Flame Orb Milotic is a counter, Bronzong is a counter, Mandibuzz is a counter, though they all depend on what set Garchomp is running. The one thing they have in common is that all of them can lose to Sand Veil. I don't get how Rough Skin makes Chomp more difficult to deal with than Sand Veil, if anything it would probably tempt people to run more defensive sets for Chomp.

If they are counters depending on Garchomp sets, that implies they are not counters and only checks. Some of the mons you listed might lose to Sand Veil if sand is active when you try to hit Garchomp, there is such a low chance of that happening. 20% miss if you hit Garchomp during Sandstorm. That's literally 3 conditions: hitting Garchomp, Sand being active and being unlucky (20%). However, since Garchomp is spammed a shit ton because it's broken, we get to see Garchomp a lot and ofc once in a every full moon a Sand Veil miss will happen and matter.  Rough Skin hits Foul Play users and actually procs on every contact move, it doesn't have a 20% chance to proc under sand.

 

18 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Scarf Tyranitar is not a Volcarona counter.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 205-244 (116.4 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You said Sand Veil allows Garchomp to set up in front of a counter. I never said Ttar was switching into Volcarona doing Quiver Dance. I said ttar was missing Stone Edge on a Volcarona doing Quiver Dance.

 

18 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

But since you mention Volcarona, let me demonstrate this example. Volcarona is against a Ferrothorn, you switch into CB Azumarill and Volcarona goes +1. All good right? I mean Azumarill has Aqua Jet so you're fine. 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 180-212 (112.5 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now imagine that Volcarona has Sand Veil and sandstorm is up. You miss Aqua Jet and this happens.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 205-244 (104.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now apply this to Garchomp on any similar scenario.

First of all, let's keep in mind that Volcarona has Flame Body that doesn't require Sand to proc and has a higher chance of burning than a dodge chance with Sand Veil. Also, keep in mind that unlike Garchomp, Volcarona has tons of answers and Sand Veil wouldn't help it against Blissey, Tentacruel or a lot of defensive options. Let's assume that Volcarona is as broken as Garchomp and you are forced or want to run an offensive check like Azumarill. We end up with this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Volcarona: 90-106 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Sand Veil would be insignificant and, if it was relevant, then too bad. Shit happens and there are far more uncompetitive things in this game than a low chance of missing a move under rare circumstances.

 

 

 

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I mean, +1 Passho Berry Volca can't ohko Azu anyways so Azu still wins the matchup. That was not the point I was trying to make anyways. I don't think you know what Uncompetitive means to be quite honest and it's obvious you just want Chomp gone as a whole for some reason.

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6 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I mean, +1 Passho Berry Volca can't ohko Azu anyways so Azu still wins the matchup. That was not the point I was trying to make anyways. I don't think you know what Uncompetitive means to be quite honest and it's obvious you just want Chomp gone as a whole for some reason.

+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 174-206 (88.7 - 105.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

That's literally your Azumarill ev spread after getting hit by Sand. And yes, that analogy was bad to begin with.

 

The reason I want Garchomp gone as a whole is because it's uber. I also never said Sand Veil wasn't uncompetitive, it is just not uncompetitive enough to warrant taking action.

 

Edited by gbwead

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21 minutes ago, Munya said:

Maybe not important I was just curious given Garchomps addition to the game, but Sandstream ability users saw an overall 2.92% drop in usage from pre-chomp to now.  Most of that loss coming from TTar, the other two rose, very very slightly.

Also this seems quite relevant to this discussion. If Sand Veil on Garchomp is so good, why did Sandstream users lose usage when Garchomp was added? Once again, the problem is Garchomp itself.

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I'm not going to pretend like I am the most well versed in every Pokemon metagame as my knowledge throughout the years has pretty much just seeing what's going on with the Smogon metagame, seeing a few matches here and there, and moving on. I'm not even going to state my opinion if something should be done about Sand Veil or not, the only thing I kind of take issue with is people equating evasion RNG to most other forms of RNG in the game.

I get it that Togekiss Para+Finch can be as impactful due to RNG, but its counters to deal with it can generalists for the meta as a whole.. Dealing with any sort of evasion increase (even if double team was hypothetically allowed in the meta) causes very one dimensional counters to be played against it just to deal with it. Especially when the benefactor is Garchomp, it usually just results in the scenario being in the Sand Stream Garchomp's favor anyway, a Pokemon that probably doesn't need anything else going well for it.

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Dont nerf the stats the problem with never the stats but sand veil is busted with chomp. release its hidden ability atleast with a hidden ability pill and ban sand veil thats what happend in gen 4, it was banned, gen 5 added rough skin and it was OU. People need to chill out

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On 2/26/2020 at 5:07 AM, Raichuforyou said:

 I'm not even going to state my opinion if something should be done about Sand Veil or not, the only thing I kind of take issue with is people equating evasion RNG to most other forms of RNG in the game.

thank you for this. People need to realize evasion boosters cannot be compared to other kind of rng.

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3 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

@Kyu yes? no? maybe?

Afaik there hasn't been serious discussion on whether it's needed yet. If I had to pick, I think our favorite method of nerfing Garchomp would be to remove its evasion in PvP, effectively giving it no ability. Rough Skin Chomp is still very strong

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11 hours ago, Kyu said:

Afaik there hasn't been serious discussion on whether it's needed yet. If I had to pick, I think our favorite method of nerfing Garchomp would be to remove its evasion in PvP, effectively giving it no ability. Rough Skin Chomp is still very strong

ok

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I have been playing pokemon for a long time and this has always been banned.
With this ability, opponents exploit it a lot, and this is unfair, it is complicated
sometimes, the only pokemon to make garchamp pass out misses the move,
I hope they remove it, Sand Veil has to be banned, so the game is more balanced.

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I think it's talking about Garchomp as if it didn't have any counter, and it's not like that. Like all weather-assisted Pokémon, you can count using another climate, canceling it with mold breaker, etc. In my opinion, he is exaggerating with asking for a nerf. It is not as if he were completely unstoppable by his ability. And in fact rough skin would make it much more broken ... I think it makes no sense.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

I think it's talking about Garchomp as if it didn't have any counter, and it's not like that.

Huhhhh, no? Maybe you should read the post again.

Edited by LifeStyleNORE

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10 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Huhhhh no? Tal vez deberías leer la publicación nuevamente.

I read it several times. I still see you talking about the Pokémon as if it were impossible to counter it. And ironically, a Nerf is asked to strengthen him further. If I am wrong, it would be good to point out my mistake instead of asking me to read again, because I will see the same thing, brother ... greetings. :D

 

 

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1 hour ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

And ironically, a Nerf is asked to strengthen him further. 

This is 100% correct. Giving Rough Skin instead of Sand Veil to Garchomp is a buff, not a nerf.

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