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LifeStyleNORE

Time to do some "balancing" on Garchomp

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derpy_garchomp_by_mrargon-d59eyn7.jpg

  HP: 108

           Attack: 130

Defense: 95

Sp. Atk: 80

Sp. Def: 85

Speed: 102

 

Garchomp is one of the most versatile pokemon in OU right now. Great offensive typing (and not too shabby defensively either), amazing stat distribution consisting of a special speed mark (102), well above-average bulk (108, 95, 85), a terrifying 130 Attack and very usable 80 Special Attack stats. To top it off, it has access to a plethora of moves that will make your opponent guess what kind of set he's running into (yes I said he because girls don't play comp mons). I've seen these things run Rocks + 3 Attacks (usually Mixed), SD Sub, SD Mixed, Choice Band, or even Scarf without busted Outrage. Now, all of these sets have their answers, the problem is when those answers lose to luck:

 

Sand VeilIf Sandstorm is active, this Pokemon's evasiveness is multiplied by 1.25.

 

Now, I do need to point out that we don't have permanent weather and that Rain is a thing, blah blah blah. You also need to set up Sand with Tyranitar or Hippo. OR YOU DON'T, because your opponent might just do that for you instead. Since Sand (or maybe just Tyranitar) is a very good playstyle, this increases the chances that Sand Veil will get some use, meaning you might lose because a Garchomp managed to dodge the most important Ice Beam ever. To me, Garchomp as a whole, paired with the luck factor from Sand Veil, makes it Uber worthy.

 

However, this made me think: what if Garchomp didn't have Sand Veil? What if it could only use Rough Skin? 

 

And this is where my Suggestion comes in: Replace Sand Veil on Garchomp with Rough Skin. Yeah, I know Rough Skin is its HA and those are planned for Dungeons, whatever. I think an exception can be made here for "balancing" purposes. An example of something else that was done to keep a Pokemon out of Ubers was removing Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's moveset.

 

If you agree then don't forget to like, upvote, subscribe to my Youtube channel (jk I don't have one) and all that good shit. Peace.

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
devs pls respond. this post was effort

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20 minutes ago, Edniss said:

One word: Weavile.

What if chomp is behind a sub that it got after dodging a move?

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I completely agree. Garchomp is a monster which can already be difficult enough to handle because of how unpredictable it's always going to be before you get a feel for what set it's running. Having to potentially deal with RNG due to Sand Veil evasions is just a massive slap in the face. There's an Evasion clause for a reason, and while yes I know Sand Veil has been an exception to that clause here on PokeMMO, it really shouldn't be.

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Just now, suigin said:

What if chomp is behind a sub that it got after dodging a move?

zoom lens icicle spear mamoswine bruh

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Rough Skin would make Garchomp significantly more broken. Sand Veil is just a bad ability. On Sandshrew and Sandslash, it sucks. On Cacturne and Canea, it sucks. Diglett and Dugtrio always prefer Arena Trap over Sand Veil obviously. Gliscor and Gligar always prefer Hyper Cutter over Sand Veil. Sand Veil is played only on defensive Gliscor because defensive Gliscor is most of the time monoattacking with EQ and Intimidate users like Gyarados and Salamence are immune to EQ. Garchomp is no different; given the option, Garchomp will prefer playing Rough Skin over Sand Veil.

Garchomp is inherently overpowered and even with a terrible ability like Sand Veil, it's deemed problematic. The solution is not to disable Sand Veil or to give Garchomp another ability, it's to ban it period.

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I believe disabling Sand Veil's PVP effect is the best course of action. I've asked many people about it and the answer has been more or less the same, that they don't think Garchomp is ban worthy but that the extra layer of RNG that Sand Veil provides allows this mon to undeservedly win matches by making unoptimal plays and praying for good RNG.

Rough Skin replacing Sand Veil seems tempting but I feel like it'd give the already best mon in the game even more utility plus making its matchup against Foul Play users even better.

Chomp's more or less in a good spot outside of the sand shenanigans, haven't seen it pull sweeps any crazier than Scizor or Gyarados so far unless we count Sand Veil enabling it to do so.

 

Tl;dr: Disable Sand Veil in PVP, keep its PVE effect of making encounters less common or w/e it is.

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42 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Garchomp is inherently overpowered and even with a terrible ability like Sand Veil, it's deemed problematic. The solution is not to disable Sand Veil or to give Garchomp another ability, it's to ban it period.

Finally the voice of reason

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Assuming Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp problematic, why would Sand Veil/Snow Cloak get disabled over simply banning Garchomp? We're talking about something like 20 pokemons losing their ability or one of their abilities just because one abuser is a problem. Dugtrio and Wobbuffet, both got banned from OU several times, but that was never a reason for Diglett, Trapinch and Wynaut to get banned as well or to get their ability disabled. Even though Diglett/Trapinch/Wynaut share the same uncompetitive ability as Dugtrio or Wobbuffet, they were never banworthy in OU and the same logic should for Garchomp and Sand Veil. Sand Veil is an uncompetitive ability just like Arena Trap and no matter how good it may be on Garchomp, it just isn't good enough to be deemed problematic on anything else that has access to it. Therefore, once again, Garchomp should get banned and Sand Veil should not be disabled because it just doesn't make sense tiering wise to do so.

Edited by gbwead

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Assuming Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp problematic, why would Sand Veil/Snow Cloak get disabled over simply banning Garchomp?

Because we were told by the higher ups to keep mons out of the Uber tier. While Sand Veil is normally a bad ability, it's actually an ability that becomes more problematic the stronger the user is. Hot garbage like Sandslash and Cacturne won't make good use of it because they themselves aren't mons that punish you hard for not killing them quickly, but mons like Gliscor and Garchomp can make some good use of it. I've pulled off good sweeps with Sub Gliscor thanks to Sand Veil granting me a few crucial dodges and Garchomp is more or less the same but with a situationally more spammable non ground STAB and better speed.

 

Quote

We're talking about something like 20 pokemons losing their ability or one of their abilities just because one abuser is a problem. Dugtrio and Wobbuffet, both got banned from OU several times, but that was never a reason for Diglett, Trapinch and Wynaut to get banned as well. Even though Diglett/Trapinch/Wynaut share the same uncompetitive ability as Dugtrio or Wobbuffet, they were never banworthy in OU and the same logic should for Garchomp and Sand Veil.

They were only banned after Unova because we were waiting for the implementation of Team Preview, once it was implemented, and Dugtrio also nerfed, they were released into the metagame and so far caused minimal issues (Until Wobb gained Tickle, at least in my opinion, but that's a topic for another day). Were they to become problematic even after that, chances are we'd be forced to nerf them even more regardless of whether Diglett or Wynaut got nerfed in the process.

Much like Sand Veil again Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are abilities that are more problematic the stronger the user is, there's no use in trapping something that will stomp all over you and there's no use in dodging a move if you need 3 Swords Dances to deal half the total hp of a common wall. A bottom of the barrel usage mon like Cacturne won't lose any more matchups because Sand Veil was removed.

 

Once again despite it being pretty good, Chomp doesn't seem to fit the category of offensive Uber. It has plenty of checks and can be played around, that is unless the game decides that no, your outplay shouldn't count and you should miss your moves, granting the opposing player a chance to beat you due to pure luck.

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27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Assuming Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp problematic, why would Sand Veil/Snow Cloak get disabled over simply banning Garchomp? We're talking about something like 20 pokemons losing their ability or one of their abilities just because one abuser is a problem. Dugtrio and Wobbuffet, both got banned from OU several times, but that was never a reason for Diglett, Trapinch and Wynaut to get banned as well. Even though Diglett/Trapinch/Wynaut share the same uncompetitive ability as Dugtrio or Wobbuffet, they were never banworthy in OU and the same logic should for Garchomp and Sand Veil. Sand Veil is an uncompetitive ability just like Arena Trap and no matter how good it may be on Garchomp, it just isn't good enough to be deemed problematic on anything else that has access to it. Therefore, once again, Garchomp should get banned and Sand Veil should not be disabled because it just doesn't make sense tiering wise to do so.

I thought the guidelines were to do whatever it takes to keep anything out of Ubers. Even if that's not the case anymore, I don't think Garchomp is banworthy, but Sand Veil turns it into something ridiculous to handle under the right scenario. I feel that Tyranitar being so viable + Garchomp being OP is what makes Garchomp look like the only thing that can effectively abuse Sand Veil. Cacturne was also a problem in DPP with its SubLeech set on Sand Hazard Stack, but fortunately we have temporary weather and Defog so something like that can never truly shine. I didn't mention anything about banning Sand Veil, I suggested that it gets removed from Garchomp, just like Draco Meteor was from Hydreigon. Other mons can keep that ability for themselves and probably never use it, because those other mons are trash (Except maybe Froslass).

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43 minutes ago, suigin said:

Because we were told by the higher ups to keep mons out of the Uber tier. While Sand Veil is normally a bad ability, it's actually an ability that becomes more problematic the stronger the user is. Hot garbage like Sandslash and Cacturne won't make good use of it because they themselves aren't mons that punish you hard for not killing them quickly, but mons like Gliscor and Garchomp can make some good use of it. I've pulled off good sweeps with Sub Gliscor thanks to Sand Veil granting me a few crucial dodges and Garchomp is more or less the same but with a situationally more spammable non ground STAB and better speed.

If banning Garchomp is not an option and we are forced to nerf it, we should discuss what is the best way to nerf Garchomp. Disabling Sand Veil / Snow Cloak is an option, but there are tons of other ways Garchomp could get nerfed. Imo, disabling Sand Veil/Snow Cloak would be a mistake:

  1. I personally think Garchomp fits offensive uber characteristics. The fact that Garchomp may also be uncompetitive because of Sand Veil is irrelevant to me because when it comes to deciding whether a pokemon is banworthy or not, being uber is far bigger "crime" than being uncompetitive. Therefore, Garchomp without Sand Veil might no longer be uncompetitive, but it would remain Uber/banworthy.
  2. Garchomp wouldn't be a problem without its dual type Dragon/Ground, it wouldn't be a problem without its insane base stats distribution, it wouldn't be a problem without access to EQ, SD, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast and several other moves. Why would Sand Veil get disabled (not even banned) over something else from Garchomp's arsenal? 
  3. When Hydreigon got preemptively nerfed, at least, only Hydreigon was affected by the nerf. Disabling Sand Veil / Snow Cloak on everything will affect several species and that just doesn't make sense tiering wise. If Sand Veil had to be disabled, it's really only because of Garchomp, so it should be complex disabled for Garchomp and not flat disabled for everything.
26 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I thought the guidelines were to do whatever it takes to keep anything out of Ubers. Even if that's not the case anymore, I don't think Garchomp is banworthy, but Sand Veil turns it into something ridiculous to handle under the right scenario. I feel that Tyranitar being so viable + Garchomp being OP is what makes Garchomp look like the only thing that can effectively abuse Sand Veil. Cacturne was also a problem in DPP with its SubLeech set on Sand Hazard Stack, but fortunately we have temporary weather and Defog so something like that can never truly shine. I didn't mention anything about banning Sand Veil, I suggested that it gets removed from Garchomp, just like Draco Meteor was from Hydreigon. Other mons can keep that ability for themselves and probably never use it, because those other mons are trash (Except maybe Froslass).

 I realise we don't have perma weather and that's kind of my point too. Has there ever been a Sand Veil or Snow Cloak pokemon deemed banworthy or problematic in any meta without perma weather? I legit don't know, so enlighten me if that is the case. 

Edited by gbwead

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Garchomp is inherently overpowered and even with a terrible ability like Sand Veil, it's deemed problematic. The solution is not to disable Sand Veil or to give Garchomp another ability, it's to ban it period.

You're not wrong by any means, but I think we all know how unlikely it is for Garchomp to actually get banned and most people would probably prefer to deal with Rough Skin instead of losing a match due to a Sand Veil evade.

 

By all means though I'd love to see Garchomp just banned instead.

Edited by Mineral

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46 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I realise we don't have perma weather and that's kind of my point too. Has there ever been a Sand Veil or Snow Cloak pokemon deemed banworthy or problematic in any meta without perma weather? I legit don't know, so enlighten me if that is the case. 

Nah, gen6 removed perma weather and added fairies, which would make a certain SubSD Chomp set completely obsolete. I guess we just need fairies.

 

Garchomp is not banworthy imo. It can get countered, checked and revenge killed. That is, if no dumb Sand Veil evasion luck happens.

 

Again, I did not ask for Sand Veil to be disabled, but if it was, what Pokemon would really suffer from that option? You keep mentioning several mons have those abilities but it's not like we see Cacturnes or Sandslashes running around in pvp.

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29 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Again, I did not ask for Sand Veil to be disabled, but if it was, what Pokemon would really suffer from that option? You keep mentioning several mons have those abilities but it's not like we see Cacturnes or Sandslashes running around in pvp.

I don't think it matters if Cacturne, Sandslash or other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak users are viable. It doesn't make sense for them to get nerfed for no reason. If something like Azumarill was deemed problematic, I would never consider disabling Huge Power. Marill and Azurill would indirectly get nerfed for no reason in that scenario and that's just not right imo. If we're going into the let's disable Sand Veil route, Sand Veil needs to be disabled only on Garchomp and nothing else. I know you didn't suggest disabling Sand Veil, but the idea is out there and needs to addressed too.

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13 minutes ago, RLotus said:

make chomp 97 base speed

I personally prefer forcing Garchomp to play at lvl 49 than modifying its base stats, but that's another debate I suppose.

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What next? make Serene Grace in Togekiss Uber too?, the RNG was always part of the game

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16 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

And this is where my Suggestion comes in: Replace Sand Veil on Garchomp with Rough Skin.

Always been in this camp as well.  Seems pretty fair IMO, considering the other things done to balance Dragon.

 

6 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I guess we just need fairies.

This but unironically

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1 hour ago, WandererMirorB said:

Always been in this camp as well.  Seems pretty fair IMO, considering the other things done to balance Dragon.

 

This but unironically

Rough skin is more threatning than sand veil on the long run, so honestly, I dont agree with this switch. Something should be done about it, but this isnt it either imo.

2 hours ago, GaloL48 said:

What next? make Serene Grace in Togekiss Uber too?, the RNG was always part of the game

Just lol'd at this are you really trying to compare something that is heavily checked by stuff like lanturn and rotom nowadays, to a mon able to faceroll an entire meta? Its a 2hko for most walls at +2, can be run mixed with fire blast to threaten skarmory too, pls dude. And rng is just a tiny part of the problem, as while it adds a rng factor to the game, its not the only asset he has, that defines him as a threat.

Edited by razimove

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Are you really asking to ban RNG? Cus thats pointless to me. Just remember people asking to ban body slam from snorlax and look what happened...

 

The same way you loose one match for a miss focus blast or stone edge, you loose to a miss from sand veil.

 

Even with 1/24 crit chance there's still crits, RNG wll be rng as always.

Edited by Risadex

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15 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Two words: Sand Veil.

 

I mean, did you even read the post before making that pointless comment?

I think that there is a simple solution.

 

Flip the Hidden Ability and the Normal ability exclusively on Pokemmo.

 

Normal Ability: Rough Skin

 

Hidden Ability: Sand Veil

 

@Edniss was on the right track, but this may help in truly balancing Garchomp.

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