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razimove

Let TC decide on competitive stuff, devs/sgm stay away from it

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Legit the tittle, was reading rachel reply on bp change and holy f thats dumb. Like what has one thing to do with another. Let those who actually play competitively have a word about the subjects before taking action please. Also didnt you guys want to remain as loyal to the cartridge games as possible? I remember reading about that some years ago.

 

And dont mix pve memes with pvp please.

Edited by razimove

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1 hour ago, razimove said:

Legit the tittle, was reading rachel reply on bp change and holy f thats dumb. Like what has one thing to do with another. Let those who actually play competitively have a word about the subjects before taking action please. Also didnt you guys want to remain as loyal to the cartridge games as possible? I remember reading about that some years ago.

 

And dont mix pve memes with pvp please.

Isn't Baton Pass clause a thing in Tournament Mode anyway due to the very mechanic that was removed from it in the first place? The list itself may be outdated if it isn't, but I could have sworn Baton Pass actually has/had limits in PvP for that very reason because it was overly centralizing the meta at one point.

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2 hours ago, razimove said:

Also didnt you guys want to remain as loyal to the cartridge games as possible?

yes but in this case it was not possible

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1 hour ago, XelaKebert said:

Isn't Baton Pass clause a thing in Tournament Mode anyway due to the very mechanic that was removed from it in the first place? The list itself may be outdated if it isn't, but I could have sworn Baton Pass actually has/had limits in PvP for that very reason because it was overly centralizing the meta at one point.

Its was used in doubles and LC, was banned in normal tiers, but it was super legit especially in LC

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21 minutes ago, razimove said:

Its was used in doubles and LC, was banned in normal tiers, but it was super legit especially in LC

Ok, so what you are asking is the dev team to do something that should only be done in instances where the difference is easily explainable for two tiers of comp play since it's banned in every other tier as is. Plus there is also the question of who is to say TC wasn't consulted on the matter? The fact is that having two variants for a single move is going to cause more confusion than simply removing the part of the move that is OP. Having code to split between PvP battle vs PvE battle is just adding more complexity to the matter. At the base every item, Pokemon, move, and ability is an object. It's far easier to edit an object than it is to have two variants and write code to differentiate which one applies and when. Like DaftCoolio said, in this instance, it simply was not possible to stay true to the cartridges.

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4 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

Ok, so what you are asking is the dev team to do something that should only be done in instances where the difference is easily explainable for two tiers of comp play since it's banned in every other tier as is. Plus there is also the question of who is to say TC wasn't consulted on the matter? The fact is that having two variants for a single move is going to cause more confusion than simply removing the part of the move that is OP. Having code to split between PvP battle vs PvE battle is just adding more complexity to the matter. At the base every item, Pokemon, move, and ability is an object. It's far easier to edit an object than it is to have two variants and write code to differentiate which one applies and when. Like DaftCoolio said, in this instance, it simply was not possible to stay true to the cartridges.

No, what Im asking them is to do things, same way as they reworked thief in pvm, exactly that, OR just remove it from learnt set, make it a starter move, and inform people it doenst work in pvm, kinda like volt switch/uturn from the trainers. This will cause even more confusion to those who try to use it on pvp, don't want to swear but this is down right dumb. It's also a core mechanic from the handheld games btw. And I strongly doubt they consulted TC, but who knows, I wish to believe they didn't as this is just dumb, like I previously said. Well, at this point, why not introduce custom pokemons and wtv? Look, just go ahead, nerf all leggies to sub 550 stats, and release them in the wild while you're at it aswell, it's the same in the end.

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6 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

Plus there is also the question of who is to say TC wasn't consulted on the matter?

uhhh me, right now, I am saying that.

 

we were definitely told about the change prior to the update, however, it wasn't "should we change BP", it was "we're unbanning BP next update because we changed it, unless somebody objects to the unban".

Edited by Senile

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55 minutes ago, Senile said:

uhhh me, right now, I am saying that.

 

we were definitely told about the change prior to the update, however, it wasn't "should we change BP", it was "we're changing BP next update because we changed it, unless somebody objects to the unban".

who are u

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9 hours ago, razimove said:

And dont mix pve memes with pvp please.

We had 3 choices when dealing with Baton Pass:

  1. "Let it rot, banned in PvP and working as an 'I Win' button in PvE"
  2. "Delete it from the game because it's too bullshit"
  3. "Remove the problematic mechanic of it."

We chose #3 obviously. So how do you go about that?

 

Do you trade additional complexity for LC/Doubles viability, or do you reintroduce dry passing / sub passing everywhere else and remove the problematic mechanic? What makes the game in its totality better?

 

As far as I'm aware, stat passing via baton pass was only significantly viable in LC anyway, as it was a niche strat in Doubles. So is LC worth taking away these strategies from OU/UU/NU?

 

I don't think it's a very hard question; We're not going to split mechanics based on tiers, so you have to give and take somewhere.

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6 minutes ago, Kyu said:

We had 3 choices when dealing with Baton Pass:

  1. "Let it rot, banned in PvP and working as an 'I Win' button in PvE"
  2. "Delete it from the game because it's too bullshit"
  3. "Remove the problematic mechanic of it."

We chose #3 obviously. So how do you go about that?

 

Do you trade additional complexity for LC/Doubles viability, or do you reintroduce dry passing / sub passing everywhere else and remove the problematic mechanic? What makes the game in its totality better?

 

As far as I'm aware, stat passing via baton pass was only significantly viable in LC anyway, as it was a niche strat in Doubles. So is LC worth taking away these strategies from OU/UU/NU?

 

I don't think it's a very hard question; We're not going to split mechanics based on tiers, so you have to give and take somewhere.

What I'm worried about is will this set a precedent to other moves you guys find to be broken in PvE. I'm going to be honest with you, the AI isn't really that smart. Sure it likes to switch in Pokemons that deal super effective moves on you but you can use it to your advantage to cheese E4 (which apparently is the main reason you guys nerfed Baton Pass). Basically I can set up Stealth Rocks and maybe a layer or two of Spikes and I can just just Whirlwind/Roar my way to victory effectively cheesing the E4. Combine that with Recover, Roost, Softboiled, Wish and maybe even Rest and I hardly use any potions. And don't get me started on Substitute shenanigans when the AI just completely loses it.

Will you guys nerf these moves also because it can also completely trivialize PvE. Or does the move have to be completely broken in both PvE and PvP before you guys nerf it?

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12 minutes ago, Archiver said:

What I'm worried about is will this set a precedent to other moves you guys find to be broken in PvE. I'm going to be honest with you, the AI isn't really that smart. Sure it likes to switch in Pokemons that deal super effective moves on you but you can use it to your advantage to cheese E4 (which apparently is the main reason you guys nerfed Baton Pass). Basically I can set up Stealth Rocks and maybe a layer or two of Spikes and I can just just Whirlwind/Roar my way to victory effectively cheesing the E4. Combine that with Recover, Roost, Softboiled, Wish and maybe even Rest and I hardly use any potions. And don't get me started on Substitute shenanigans when the AI just completely loses it.

 

Will you guys nerf these moves also because it can also completely trivialize PvE. Or does the move have to be completely broken in both PvE and PvP before you guys nerf it?

Contrary to popular opinion, we do in fact have brains and can distinguish between AI issues and mechanical issues. Baton Pass's issue was with its mechanics.

 

We've done balancing changes for PvE before, but I think the last one was a nerf to Base Power of a low-level Fire skill which stomped everything <lvl 15, or something. It's very rare that we nerf anything solely because of PvE performance

 

Edit: It was Incinerate, because it stomped Snivy pickers when getting hit by Gym 1 in Unova. We've also omitted base power updates for Rock Tomb because it stomped players when Brock showed up.

Edited by Kyu

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10 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

yes but in this case it was not possible

I was gonna ask for an elaboration on this a few days ago but forgot to ask, but I'm glad cause Kyu's response clarifies a lot of the thought process behind it and I kind of see the reason behind the decision.

 

2 hours ago, Kyu said:

As far as I'm aware, stat passing via baton pass was only significantly viable in LC anyway, as it was a niche strat in Doubles. So is LC worth taking away these strategies from OU/UU/NU?

If you're looking for opinions on that, a lot of PvP players would've accepted Baton Pass staying the same and being banned from OU/UU/NU, since it's pretty publicly accepted that the OG move would be too broken for these tiers. It does take away from a lot of fun LC plays though, as well as creative ways to bait the opponent. At least, that's my opinion as well as a few other people who were talking about it on Discord. I don't think anyone would have any serious issues with it being banned from PvE to have its mechanics stay the same, honestly. Sure, there'd be disagreement as with many major changes but people would eventually come to accept it. Maybe opening up a bit of conversation or seeing players' answers to that particular question would help? As for how a move would be banned from PvE, maybe have a specific tutor NPC for it that kind of warns you about this being a competitive only move? 

Thanks for shedding some light on the options considered for the move though. I don't expect you guys to change your mind on this decision but I'm hoping you do. 

 

Edited by DibzAgain
LC Best Tier

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7 hours ago, Kyu said:

Edit: It was Incinerate, because it stomped Snivy pickers when getting hit by Gym 1 in Unova. We've also omitted base power updates for Rock Tomb because it stomped players when Brock showed up.

Oh so that's why it's unbuffed, I guess I'm preemptively getting denied my request to buff at least its accuracy.

 

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7 hours ago, Kyu said:

We've also omitted base power updates for Rock Tomb because it stomped players when Brock showed up.

Why? Wouldn't it make more sense to just remove Rock Tomb from Brock's movesets? I'd like that move to have 60BP and 95 accuracy, it has some pretty decent use in PVP.

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On 2/9/2020 at 12:47 AM, Kyu said:

We had 3 choices when dealing with Baton Pass:

  1. "Let it rot, banned in PvP and working as an 'I Win' button in PvE"
  2. "Delete it from the game because it's too bullshit"
  3. "Remove the problematic mechanic of it."

We chose #3 obviously. So how do you go about that?

 

Do you trade additional complexity for LC/Doubles viability, or do you reintroduce dry passing / sub passing everywhere else and remove the problematic mechanic? What makes the game in its totality better?

 

As far as I'm aware, stat passing via baton pass was only significantly viable in LC anyway, as it was a niche strat in Doubles. So is LC worth taking away these strategies from OU/UU/NU?

 

I don't think it's a very hard question; We're not going to split mechanics based on tiers, so you have to give and take somewhere.

I bet dry passing/sub passing won't get nearly as much usage in the 5 tiers combined as it did have in lc/dubs. Yeah its unbanned now but niche at best I'd say, does it make the game better? I wouldn't say so really.

 

Also, why were there only 3 options, why didn't you guys consider changing its effects on pve vs pvp (kinda like what you guys did with thief)

Edited by iJulian

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Imagine gym leader Brock having anything to do with technician Breloom in 2097 not using rock tomb in PvP. LMFAO

Edited by pachima

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