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[LC Discussion] Misdreavus


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1 hour ago, RLotus said:

I count 2 viable pokemon that have been added to lc, croagunk and snover. The meta will barely change from what it was before sinnoh and the pokemon that were broken before are still broken.

 

Murkrow is absurdly powerful, having precisely 0 counters in the tier. Maybe you think it can be handled by archen or maybe chinchou.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Night Slash vs. 236 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
0 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Archen, 2hkod. Chinchou must rely on resttalk w/ heal bell to stay alive against murkrow. Shaky at best. You could argue nosepass in sand can handle murkrow, but sand is quite hard to mantain and nosepass is pretty bad otherwise. Another shaky answer. Not only is Murkrow unwallabe, it is very hard to revenge kill due to its powerful priority in sucker punch.

 

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252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 21-25 (110.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Chinchou: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 21-27 (116.6 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Some of the popular scarfers of the tier, not including the ghosts bc they die ofc. The only new  mon that changes anything to do with murkrow is snover, which can get off a scarf ice shard for a lot of damage. Even then, locking into ice shard quite sub optimal. Murkrow still annihilates the tier.

 

Scraggy is also still able to steal games with minimal effort. Here is its new check

 

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188+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 8-12 (36.3 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

meh. Timbur and mienfoo are the best checks, but +1 zen headbutt does a significant chunk and thus need to be kept health/near full. Oh and vullaby gets 2hkod after rocks.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
 
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Zen Headbutt vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
 
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

  

 

Not a couple checks to misdreavus, a singular check to misdreavus, stunky. An unreliable and unsustainable check. It can't keep switching into misdreavus  taking the chip and also has to keep playing the pursuit/sucker punch game with misd. You'd be better off cheking misd offensively, besides stunky is pretty poor outside of checking misd. 

 

So, can we stop this nonsense and not flood the tier with ridiculous threats. Let's move the tier forward, not backwards.

Spot on

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@RLotus I agree with everything you said, but I think you are mistaken regarding Murkrow. Imo, it should remain banned, but not because it had 0 counters, but simply because the available counters were just bad. Murkrow doesn't have access to Night Slash, so specially defensive Archen does check it very well actually. There is also specially defensive heatproof bronzor that can wall it well, but unfortunately we were never able to see it in action because recycle + berry juice got fixed after Murkrow got banned. 

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15 hours ago, RLotus said:

Murkrow is absurdly powerful, having precisely 0 counters in the tier.

Not every pokemon needs to have a counter, this has been established countless times before.

 

Pretty much any neutral hit will ko it, yeah sucker punch is powerful but it doesnt come without its drawbacks.

 

15 hours ago, RLotus said:

Timbur and mienfoo are the best checks, but +1 zen headbutt does a significant chunk and thus need to be kept health/near full. Oh and vullaby gets 2hkod after rocks.

You're basically saying you have to play smart vs it, whats wrong with that? Dont let your checks be worn down before dealing with the potential thread or else it could win, thats the basics of competitive pokemon I dont know why it would apply any differently here.

Timbur has a bit of recovery from drain punch, mienfoo has it too and regenerator, and with vulla you could either try and keep rocks off the field or just switch in anyways bc itll waste a turn setting up meaning you can k0 before you're 2hkod back.

 

15 hours ago, RLotus said:

Not a couple checks to misdreavus, a singular check to misdreavus, stunky. An unreliable and unsustainable check. It can't keep switching into misdreavus  taking the chip and also has to keep playing the pursuit/sucker punch game with misd.

Couple things here. First, thats quite literally the definition of a check. It cant switch in indefinitely otherwise it'd be a counter.

Pursuit/Priority combos are a classic way of dealing with ghosts since forever, or are we gonna say now that banded scizor is not a check to gengar because it cant switch on a focus blast and then be forced into the Pursuit/BulletPunch mindgame too? talk about unreliable and unsustainable amirite

 

You also mentioned you can offensively check them which yeah you can. I don't see how that argument suits the point you're trying to bring forward instead of mine.

 

 

Edited by iJulian
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Honestly I don't get it. I bet if this was a OU discussion, everything would be done to keep Misdreavus out of Ubers. But since it's LC then it doesn't impact devs' perspective of "we don't want ubers yadda yadda bad game design". Wouldn't banning Nasty Plot for Misdreavus in LC fix this whole thing? Who cares if complex bans look bad. It's literally one move that might push it over the edge and yet, a discussion is being held to ban Misdreavus as a whole, which has proven to be such an important mon to this meta. Imho Misdreavus without Nasty Plot is NOT banworthy.

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4 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Honestly I don't get it. I bet if this was a OU discussion, everything would be done to keep Misdreavus out of Ubers. But since it's LC then it doesn't impact devs' perspective of "we don't want ubers yadda yadda bad game design". Wouldn't banning Nasty Plot for Misdreavus in LC fix this whole thing? Who cares if complex bans look bad. It's literally one move that might push it over the edge and yet, a discussion is being held to ban Misdreavus as a whole, which has proven to be such an important mon to this meta. Imho Misdreavus without Nasty Plot is NOT banworthy.

The part of this inconsistency that's wrong is OU's propensity to limit flat bans, not that LC doesn't seem to play by the same rules. I'm not arguing that Misd w/o nasty plot is Not banworthy, you're probably right about that. My issue is, you can (and people WILL) apply that logic to literally any banworthy mon in any tier in the future if complex bans start to be normalized. Would rose still be banworthy in NU w/o sludge bomb? That's my eternal problem with the complex ban

Edited by Gunthug
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6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

The part of this inconsistency that's wrong is OU's propensity to limit flat bans, not that LC doesn't seem to play by the same rules.

Yeah I agree that OU is really what started this inconsistency. Most specifically, removing Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's movepool and claiming "it's not a complex ban", which anyone with half a brain can tell that is bullshit. And there's more decisions like this to come in the future...

11 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I'm not arguing that Misd w/o nasty plot is Not banworthy, you're probably right about that. My issue is, you can (and people WILL) apply that logic to literally any banworthy mon in any tier in the future if complex bans start to be normalized. Would roselia still be banworthy in NU w/o sludge bomb? That's my eternal problem with the complex ban

I wouldn't say Roserade needs to be dealt with by using a complex ban, because it can just move up to UU and problem solved. It's also not as an important mon to NU as Misdreavus is to LC. If Roserade was OU and Sludge Bomb made it broken though, you can believe that Sludge Bomb would be removed from its moveset just to keep it out of Ubers. The Devs probably just don't care about what happens in UU/NU, because anything broken in them can just move up. In a way, I'd only compare LC to OU, because both don't have a tier above them. This is why I think banning NP on Misdreavus could be discussed.

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41 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I wouldn't say Roserade needs to be dealt with by using a complex ban, because it can just move up to UU and problem solved. It's also not as an important mon to NU as Misdreavus is to LC. If Roserade was OU and Sludge Bomb made it broken though, you can believe that Sludge Bomb would be removed from its moveset just to keep it out of Ubers. The Devs probably just don't care about what happens in UU/NU, because anything broken in them can just move up. In a way, I'd only compare LC to OU, because both don't have a tier above them. This is why I think banning NP on Misdreavus could be discussed.

To your first point I would agree that there are certainly situations where a mon is so important to a tier that a complex ban might be worth considering - i'm reminded of curselax ban from a couple years ago. 

 

If I'm interpreting staff's position on banning correctly, their main concerns seem to be 1. not allowing players access to anything so strong that it lowers competitiveness of PVE experience (which is laughable but they've made this clear) and 2. attempting to not rendera pokemon completely useless in competitive play, ie when a pokemon is sitting in ubers and therefore cant be used in a single tier. I think the difference between OU and LC, following that logic, is that an LC banned mon could theoretically still be useful in another tier, or at least used - plus no LC mon is a threat to be OP in PVE.

 

Regardless of those mental gymnastics I would just preach being delicate when considering whether a mon rises to the level taht it's so important for a tier, we should bypass traditional tiering (does it fit offensive/defensive/utility uber or unhealthy/uncompetitive?) and instead play "what move/ability can we ban to keep this in the tier?"

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5 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Honestly I don't get it. I bet if this was a OU discussion, everything would be done to keep Misdreavus out of Ubers. But since it's LC then it doesn't impact devs' perspective of "we don't want ubers yadda yadda bad game design". Wouldn't banning Nasty Plot for Misdreavus in LC fix this whole thing? Who cares if complex bans look bad. It's literally one move that might push it over the edge and yet, a discussion is being held to ban Misdreavus as a whole, which has proven to be such an important mon to this meta. Imho Misdreavus without Nasty Plot is NOT banworthy.

The problem with this argument is that we have already been banning other LC mons too. Should we artificially change scyther/sneasel etc to be balanced in LC too?

 

I already don't really like the whole thing that is going on in OU to avoid any bans from occurring but that's an argument for another day. Balancing LC is even more difficult because gamefreak doesn't really consider LC very much when adding new mons/adding new evolutions to existing mons. Pretty much all of the LC ubers pool are mons that originally did not evolve, but gamefreak added an evolution later on, so they became legal in LC as a result, even though they were originally added in the game as a non evolving entity and the base stats typically show that (yanma, tangela, sneasel, scyther, misdreavus). Base stats and individual stats matter a lot more in LC than other tiers, as the low level and eviolite bonus, and how the damage calculation works can change damages drastically. 1 extra point in defense can result in damage rolls changing by 4 points of damage, which can be a 20% hp difference.

 

Some mons are sort of exceptions when it comes to base stat totals/balancing, like ponyta and onix. Ponyta typically has one of the highest BSTs in LC metas, but it's rarely seen as a super dominant force, as it is pure fire type, which leaves it weak to stealth rock/other hazards, leaves it prone to being trapped by trapinch/diglett, and generally doesn't resist enough common attacks in LC to be a good defensive switchin to things. Onix, while initially being a mon that doesn't evolve, has maintained balance as 42% of its BST is from defense alone, and has pretty terrible hp/sp def/attack, which limits how useful it actually is at checking defensive threats outside of physical flying/normal moves.

 

As for misdreavus, I think the best option is to just ban it. Prior to nasty plot access, misdreavus was already too good not to use, and the usage showed that. A BST of 435, supported by 3 immunities, 19 speed to outspeed everything besides scarfers and diglett, and a decent amount of support moves in its movepool. The only answers were porygon and munchlax (both of which, could be handled various different misdreavus sets, but these sets were less good vs other threats in the meta, so it was sort of fine from a balance standpoint). Now with nasty plot, misdreavus doesn't have to run sub optimal sets to deal with porygon and munchlax, as it can break past both of them, being able to go +2 sp atk in one turn and threaten them much more quickly than before.

 

I understand the desire to keep misdreavus around to be a fast utility mon that can help deal with fighting types, but from a tiering perspective, misdreavus is not too different from tangela or sneasel. So in my mind, it doesn't make sense to complex ban an element of misdreavus to keep it free in LC, but keep tangela/sneasel in LC ubers. Based off my understanding, the devs want to avoid stuff ending up in level 50 ubers, as those mons are then only usable in doubles and PvE, but with LC ubers, those mons are still usable in level 50s formats. Sneasel, tangela, and scyther have all seen usage in NU. Misdreavus has a smaller niche in NU, as mismagius still exists there, but it can still be used if you are looking for a bulkier version of mismagius while foregoing some speed/leftovers recovery.

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