Jump to content

[LC Discussion] Misdreavus


Recommended Posts

5da7ec5dbe0a34ca846c795f9da6589a.png

Misdreavus is one of the most meta-defining pokemon in LC and has been regarded on several occasions as perhaps ban worthy as mentioned on the two following linked posts: 

 

Misdreavus was almost deemed ban worthy in the past, but now that it has gained access to Nasty Plot, it seems more unstoppable than ever before. All its previous counters like Porygon and Munchlax get reliably 2HKO now.

 

Some might argue that Misdreavus is probably the one pokemon holding the tier together by preventing Mienfoo from being more centralizing than it already is and by revenge killing +2 Clamperl without getting trapped by Diglett. Even though a broken pokemon should never remain in a tier just to check other broken pokemon, there is still some merit to the previous argument since LC has already very limited options by design. If Misdreavus opens up more versatility in LC, it's something that must perhaps be considered when deciding its fate.

 

The Tier Council would like to get your input regarding Misdreavus in LC. Do you think it should remain in LC or not? And why?

Link to comment

Where to start without becoming a broken record, I already thought Misdreavus was busted before it getting access to Nasty Plot. With access to Nasty Plot, the best check now is probably Spdef Stunky.

 

It still comes down to a predict.

Spoiler
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 188+ SpD Eviolite Stunky: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14)
(Stunky has 24 hp with the spread)

 

92 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

 

92 Atk Stunky Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 12)
That would be 16 damage on the switch with the set you provided
 
unless I'm mistaken the most common outcome 14+8 = 22/23 hp.

Porygon/ Munchlax

Spoiler

So previously Porygon had a decent match up vs Misdreavus, with Nasty plot it becomes pretty much useless, now, I did change the 36 hp evs for 36 def evs. There are arguments for both to be played. This gives Misdreavus 22/13 instead of 23/12.

 

Misd uses Nasty Plot,

 

0- Atk Porygon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
 
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
 
That would give Stunky the ability to have a good chance within a 1v1 setup
 
Now the second option being Munchlax,
 
236+ Atk Munchlax Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (43.3 - 53.3%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

 

+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 18-22 (60 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
 
Same thing with Porygon, though now you have to hope you get a 13 or 14 hit with tbolt to not activate berry juice on lax.

It reduces the amount of viable pokes that could help make the tier healthier, within the spoiler the argument I made in the other thread.

Spoiler

The reason I brought up Misdreavus and not one of the other three, is due the fact that to defend against Misdreavus someone is almost forced to run either Porygon or Munchlax, that compared with before mentioned 19 speed, you either have to risk a speed tie and most likely not 1hk0 Misdreavus, while dying yourself. Or take one of the three 20 speed pokes and have them tickle it.

 

LifeStyle mentioned Misdreavus holding the tier together, while there is an argument to be made there. It is also arguable that it makes the tier significantly more unhealthy. It restricts three great ghost types from being able to shine. Those being Yamask, Frillish and Gastly.

 

Yamask has a quite decent match up vs Mienfoo with the ability Mummy.

Frillish doesn't like that Mienfoo isnt a gentleman with the Knock Off and U-Turn, it can still emotionally recover from it.

Gastly in the currently meta is a weaker Misdreavus but with Poison Type and access to Giga Drain, other than that both movesets are quite similar. Yes, the special attack is higher than Misdreavus, the other stats are lower, especially the defenses. The difference between 18 and 19 speed is quite significant.

 

LifeStyle also mentioned the fact that LC might not have a big enough playerbase to take the blow of the ban. People will adapt there are on average two to three LC tourneys a week, most of them are filled. People did adapt with the 3 month Diglett test ban by using more poison and electric types and Trapinch.

Currently the only viable 19 speed pokemon in the tier is Misdreavus. Misdreavus wins 1v1 all other 19 speed pokemons. Other 19 speed pokes, being, Abra, Aipom, Buizel, Buneary, Magby, Meowth, Poliwag, Ponyta, Staryu, Taillow and Wingull. Three of them have a good match up vs Mienfoo, being Abra, Staryu and Taillow. Not even mentioning Yamask, Frillish and Gastly, which are currently almost completely outclassed by Misdreavus. In the 18 speed tier Doduo and Gastly are the main outliers which can also in their turn take care of Mienfoo.

 

Most of the time Misdreavus is being played with Mienfoo, as Mienfoo can easily U-turn out into Misdreavus. They cover each other quite good. Mienfoo can take out Misdreavus checks and vice versa. None of the new ghosts have the speed or bulk to make that combo work.

 

Misdreavus just makes teambuilding a whole lot more difficult, restricts versitility.

 

What I do wonder, is the people saying Misdreavus should stay, what their arguments are.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Some might argue that Misdreavus is probably the one pokemon holding the tier together by preventing Mienfoo from being more centralizing than it already is

Misdreavus is not a check to mienfoo, unless mien is already at low health and you predict the fighting move. Considering misdreavus a switch in to mienfoo is quite foolish, as you will get knocked, and then since misd can’t ohko mien, slowed uturned and lose momentum. Wilo wisp is a better option against mien, although depending on the matchup, mien is hardly hampered by a burn. Mienfoo should have nothing to do with an argument to keep misd around, shits broken.

Link to comment
20 minutes ago, RLotus said:

Misdreavus is not a check to mienfoo, unless mien is already at low health and you predict the fighting move. Considering misdreavus a switch in to mienfoo is quite foolish, as you will get knocked, and then since misd can’t ohko mien, slowed uturned and lose momentum. Wilo wisp is a better option against mien, although depending on the matchup, mien is hardly hampered by a burn. Mienfoo should have nothing to do with an argument to keep misd around, shits broken.

To elaborate on this, a lot of people value a knocked off Misdreavus higher than their burned Mienfoo.

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

So if Misdre does not check Mienfoo, and Mienfoo can cripple Misdre that easily...doesn't that mean Misdre is fine in the tier? I mean Mienfoo has more usage

Mienfoo really doesn't like any incoming moves from Misdreavus, especially not Psychic, sure it will U-turn pretty much all the time.

 

Spoiler
236 SpA Misdreavus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

 

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
 
236 SpA Misdreavus Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)

 

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

Mienfoo always loses HP to the U-Turn, ofc it can still switch normally to get Hp back.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, RLotus said:

Misdreavus is not a check to mienfoo, unless mien is already at low health and you predict the fighting move. Considering misdreavus a switch in to mienfoo is quite foolish, as you will get knocked, and then since misd can’t ohko mien, slowed uturned and lose momentum. Wilo wisp is a better option against mien, although depending on the matchup, mien is hardly hampered by a burn. Mienfoo should have nothing to do with an argument to keep misd around, shits broken.

I think you are confusing check and counter here. Misdreavus is a check to Mienfoo. A check wins in a 1v1 scenario. A counter can switch in and win the 1v1. I never claimed Misdreavus was a counter.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, YettoDie said:

Mienfoo really doesn't like any incoming moves from Misdreavus, especially not Psychic, sure it will U-turn pretty much all the time.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
236 SpA Misdreavus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

 

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
 
236 SpA Misdreavus Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)

 

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

Mienfoo always loses HP to the U-Turn, ofc it can still switch normally to get Hp back.

Well Misdreavus can't run Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, HP Fighting, Psychic, Nasty Plot and Will-o-Wisp all at once...I doubt it can afford running Psychic at all really

Link to comment
4 hours ago, gbwead said:

I think you are confusing check and counter here. Misdreavus is a check to Mienfoo. A check wins in a 1v1 scenario. A counter can switch in and win the 1v1. I never claimed Misdreavus was a counter.

Ok yes by definition misdreavus beats  mienfoo 1v1 with a free switch so it’s a check. But if mienfoo isn’t uturning/switching out against many offensive threats then it’s checked by it. This is not a good standard to judge mienfoo by. The  point i was making is that even with a free switch misd isn’t really “beating” mienfoo because it gets to do what it wants to do anyway, while recovering a portion the damage that misd does. I hardly consider this a check, and the absence of misdreavus certainly doesn’t make playing against mienfoo any harder/easier.

Edited by RLotus
Link to comment
5 minutes ago, iJulian said:

I believe that with all the new shits coming to the tier aswell as baton pass not working anymore it is good time to test a partial reset.

 

Is np misdre broken rn? probably yeah.

Would np misdre be broken in a metagame with scraggy, murkow, suntky, etc? I wouldn't know, we'd have to test it.

Agree.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, iJulian said:

I believe that with all the new shits coming to the tier aswell as baton pass not working anymore it is good time to test a partial reset.

 

Is np misdre broken rn? probably yeah.

Would np misdre be broken in a metagame with scraggy, murkow, suntky, etc? I wouldn't know, we'd have to test it.

This

Link to comment

Imo Scyther / Sneasel / Murkrow / Scraggy / Meditite are too broken to get back into the tier. They are unwallable & uncheckable.

NP Misdreavus even with lvl 5 OU mons in the tier will still be problematic, another thing that bothers me is that now that we're getting more Misdreavus checks, we're still forced to decide whether it stays in the tier or not because NP 2hkoes everything, if not ohkoes.

A sane move imo would be to ban NP on Misdreavus, the same way you guys saved Hydreigon by banning Draco meteor on it.

Link to comment
Just now, Laz said:

Imo Scyther / Sneasel / Murkrow / Scraggy / Meditite are too broken to get back into the tier. They are unwallable & uncheckable.

Don't put Murkov and scraggy in the same bag as the classic lc ubers that have been banned every generation since they've existed.

 

2 hours ago, iJulian said:

it is a good time to test a partial reset.

hence the word partial

Link to comment
33 minutes ago, iJulian said:

Don't put Murkov and scraggy in the same bag as the classic lc ubers that have been banned every generation since they've existed.

 

hence the word partial

But Murkrow is banned in every relevant gen of LC and Scraggy was banned in BW LC. We don't have fairy types here so Scraggy is pretty busted. I'm personally not in favour of reintroducing broken mons to somewhat deal with another broken mon. Nothing newly introduced can really deal with them outside of possibly Shieldon for Murkrow and even that is iffy. 

Edited by xXBlu3BreathXx
Link to comment
Just now, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

But Murkrow is banned in every gen of LC and Scraggy was banned in BW LC. We don't have fairy types here so Scraggy is pretty busted. I'm personally not in favour of reintroducing broken mons to somewhat deal with another broken mon. Nothing newly introduced can really deal with them outside of possibly Shieldon for Murkrow and even that is iffy.

Murkrow was part of the lc metagame for the longest time when it came out and it was only ultimately deemed banworthy because of the versatility it could have along with its prankster sets which we dont have access to.

 

The scraggy case is iffy cuz even tho a 4x weakness to fairy types definitely help its case for not being banned in later gens one could also make the case that it not having access to op knockoff balances it out. 

 

Finally, a plethora of new pokemon have been introduced including a couple checks to misdreavus (going back on topic) and without having those changes settle in the metagame I dont see much sense in speculating I only see 3 outcomes which makes sense:

a. TC considers np misdre powerful enough to be QUICKBANNED

b. We wait to see how the metagame develops

c. We take this opportunity of change to evaluate a partial reset

 

A simple ban/discussion will not do because we wont have enough information to base the decission upon our peculiar now disturbed metagame. In my eyes misdreavus is either so strong on paper that a quickban is warranted without event attempting to discuss it or otherwaise it must wait.

Edited by iJulian
Link to comment
7 hours ago, iJulian said:

Finally, a plethora of new pokemon have been introduced including a couple checks to misdreavus

I count 2 viable pokemon that have been added to lc, croagunk and snover. The meta will barely change from what it was before sinnoh and the pokemon that were broken before are still broken.

 

Murkrow is absurdly powerful, having precisely 0 counters in the tier. Maybe you think it can be handled by archen or maybe chinchou.

 

Spoiler
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Night Slash vs. 236 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
0 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Archen, 2hkod. Chinchou must rely on resttalk w/ heal bell to stay alive against murkrow. Shaky at best. You could argue nosepass in sand can handle murkrow, but sand is quite hard to mantain and nosepass is pretty bad otherwise. Another shaky answer. Not only is Murkrow unwallabe, it is very hard to revenge kill due to its powerful priority in sucker punch.

 

Spoiler
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 21-25 (110.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Chinchou: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 21-27 (116.6 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Some of the popular scarfers of the tier, not including the ghosts bc they die ofc. The only new  mon that changes anything to do with murkrow is snover, which can get off a scarf ice shard for a lot of damage. Even then, locking into ice shard quite sub optimal. Murkrow still annihilates the tier.

 

Scraggy is also still able to steal games with minimal effort. Here is its new check

 

Spoiler
188+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 8-12 (36.3 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

meh. Timbur and mienfoo are the best checks, but +1 zen headbutt does a significant chunk and thus need to be kept health/near full. Oh and vullaby gets 2hkod after rocks.

 

Spoiler
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
 
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Zen Headbutt vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
 
+1 156 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

  

 

8 hours ago, iJulian said:

been introduced including a couple checks to misdreavus

Not a couple checks to misdreavus, a singular check to misdreavus, stunky. An unreliable and unsustainable check. It can't keep switching into misdreavus  taking the chip and also has to keep playing the pursuit/sucker punch game with misd. You'd be better off cheking misd offensively, besides stunky is pretty poor outside of checking misd. 

 

So, can we stop this nonsense and not flood the tier with ridiculous threats. Let's move the tier forward, not backwards.

Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.