Jump to content

January-Movement Discussion Thread


Recommended Posts

@Butler, usually you need to invest some evs in special defense in order for a pokemon to be used as a special wall. Golbat doesn't get nuked at all and can't get flinched by Extrasensory. Why is Cryogonal forced to Recover and why would that even be a bad thing?

 

The fact that most of Roserade checks are weak to rocks or that some of them might not look viable at first glance is completely irrelevant when making a case for Roserade to get banned as offensive uber. Roserade is not the reason why hazard control suck in NU. You can't really argue what the viability of Roserade counters will be since Roserade isn't even here yet. You're pretty arguing here that Roserade is an offensive uber by making a case for it to be unhealthy. Nothing can be banned as unhealthy before being tested.

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, Sebat said:

np, also we can talk about how bouffalant scarf is broken

Thats one way to handle being out of arguments.

 

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@Butler, usually you need to invest some evs in special defense in order for a pokemon to be used as a special wall. Golbat doesn't get nuked at all and can't get flinched by Extrasensory. Why is Cryogonal forced to Recover and why would that even be a bad thing?

 

The fact that most of Roserade checks are weak to rocks or that some of them might not look viable at first glance is completely irrelevant when making a case for Roserade to get banned as offensive uber. Roserade is not the reason why hazard control suck in NU. You can't really argue what the viability of Roserade counters will be since Roserade isn't even here yet. You're pretty arguing here that Roserade is an offensive uber by making a case for it to be unhealthy. Nothing can be banned as unhealthy before being tested.

The fact it cant be flinched doesnt even matter, unless you wanna run max speed to tie rose or max max calm, which is interesting, considering bats meant to check certain 80 base threats.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 68-81 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Calms nuked as well, what are you pointing at?

 

Because its a huge momentum sink and cryos not hard to abuse?

 

So basically, this thread is useless, cause nothings gonna happen anyways before tested?

 

 

Edited by NOREButler
Link to comment

I think adding Rocks to any calc is always fair. Let's face it, rocks will be in play like 90% of the time (made up number but you get the point), they're easy to set and hard to remove. So yeah when the most reliable answers to a particular mon take 25/50% from rocks, it's defo something game changing and should be considered.

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

So basically, this thread is useless, cause nothings gonna happen anyways before tested?

It's not useless. If you can argue that it is offensive uber, it means something. If you argue that every option against Roserade is unviable, it's just your point of vue and there is not much to discuss.

 

3 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I think adding Rocks to any calc is always fair. Let's face it, rocks will be in play like 90% of the time (made up number but you get the point), they're easy to set and hard to remove. So yeah when the most reliable answers to a particular mon take 25/50% from rocks, it's defo something game changing and should be considered.

Ya, but if rocks are easy to set up and hard to remove, that has nothing to do with Roserade and more to do with the mons that set up rocks for free in the first place. I personally don't think it's fair to discard all the potential counters weak to rocks just because people refuse to deal with the rock setters of the tier. In UU and OU, rocks are not that as easy to put down and not as difficult to remove imo. I'm not saying rocks should be easier to remove or that Roserade should remain in NU over some rock users, but simply a choice might have to be made at some point.

Link to comment
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 66-78 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusknoir: 48-58 (31.5 - 38.1%) -- 96.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Drifblim: 82-97 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

---

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 74-87 (34.1 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Heatproof Bronzor: 34-42 (20.7 - 25.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 66-79 (35.2 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 68-82 (35.2 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It's not useless. If you can argue that it is offensive uber, it means something. If you argue that every option against Roserade is unviable, it's just your point of vue and there is not much to discuss.

You name mons that dont even check rose with rocks up and me saying "they dont check rose" is an opinion?

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Ya, but if rocks are easy to set up and hard to remove, that has nothing to do with Roserade and more to do with the mons that set up rocks for free in the first place. I personally don't think it's fair to discard all the potential counters weak to rocks just because people refuse to deal with the rock setters of the tier. In UU and OU, rocks are not that as easy to put down and not as difficult to remove imo. I'm not saying rocks should be easier to remove or that Roserade should remain in NU over some rock users, but simply a choice might have to be made at some point.

lol. To all that.

 

Ok first of all, I didn't mention Roserade, I said "adding Rocks to any calc is always fair", as an example something like Charizard/Scyther can potentially check other mons due to typing, base stats, etc but they have to consider the high possibility of Rocks being in play, aka they'll have 50% HP removed upon switching in, probably no longer making them a check to whatever they were checking. This applies to any Pokemon that is weak to rocks. And no, rocks being easy to setup has nothing to do with rockers or hazard control, they're just simply a click away from being put in play, it's much different than something like Spikes, which would take 3 turns of setting them up. Not to mention every mon barring Magic Guard users take damage from switching into rocks. I think this is just common sense tbh.

Your point that rocks aren't as easy to keep in UU or OU also just seems made up, so I won't even bother tackling that. You could also specify what "people refuse to deal with the rock setters of the tier" is supposed to mean. I don't get if you're saying that people don't bother using hazard control or if there's none, or if some rock setters should be banned, like I've seen you argue about Druddigon being uncompetitive...

If it comes down to banning rock setters or banning Roserade because it's checks are no longer checks due to rocks, the choice is pretty obvious.

Link to comment
28 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

And no, rocks being easy to setup has nothing to do with rockers or hazard control, they're just simply a click away from being put in play, it's much different than something like Spikes, which would take 3 turns of setting them up. Not to mention every mon barring Magic Guard users take damage from switching into rocks. I think this is just common sense tbh.

Rocks being easy to set up and hazard control go hand in hand. Rocks take one turn to be set up and one turn to be get removed. That is common sense...

 

29 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Your point that rocks aren't as easy to keep in UU or OU also just seems made up, so I won't even bother tackling that. You could also specify what "people refuse to deal with the rock setters of the tier" is supposed to mean. I don't get if you're saying that people don't bother using hazard control or if there's none, or if some rock setters should be banned, like I've seen you argue about Druddigon being uncompetitive...

If it comes down to banning rock setters or banning Roserade because it's checks are no longer checks due to rocks, the choice is pretty obvious.

If you want to discuss what is obvious, let's discuss the real problem then: Druddigon + Roserade. Druddigon is free rocks in NU and, if Roserade lose all its counters because of Rocks, Druddigon is obviously part of the problem. UU and OU have much better hazard control than NU where people rely on Blastoise, the greatest Roserade bait...

It will not come down to rock setters and Roserade, but it might come down to Druddigon and Roserade imo. 

Edited by gbwead
Link to comment
12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Rocks being easy to set up and hazard control go hand in hand. Rocks take one turn to be set up and one turn to be get removed. That is common sense...

 

If you want to discuss what is obvious, let's discuss the real problem then: Druddigon + Roserade. Druddigon is free rocks in NU and, if Roserade lose all its counters because of Rocks, Druddigon is obviously part of the problem. UU and OU have much better hazard control than NU where people rely on Blastoise, the greatest Roserade bait...

It will not come down to rock setters and Roserade, but it might come down to Druddigon and Roserade imo. 

There's also way more rock setters than hazard removals, with the rock setters either outright 1v1ing the defoggers or being supported by a ghost to beat the spinners... oh look more common sense.

 

Also who could tell that you would somehow make this about Druddigon? Yet again.

Link to comment
46 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@Butler, usually you need to invest some evs in special defense in order for a pokemon to be used as a special wall. Golbat doesn't get nuked at all and can't get flinched by Extrasensory. Why is Cryogonal forced to Recover and why would that even be a bad thing?

 

The fact that most of Roserade checks are weak to rocks or that some of them might not look viable at first glance is completely irrelevant when making a case for Roserade to get banned as offensive uber. Roserade is not the reason why hazard control suck in NU. You can't really argue what the viability of Roserade counters will be since Roserade isn't even here yet. You're pretty arguing here that Roserade is an offensive uber by making a case for it to be unhealthy. Nothing can be banned as unhealthy before being tested.

I wouldn't say rocks are completely irrelevant when making such a case.  If you're forced to run a rocks weak mon to handle a certain threat, you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage if you cannot handle said threat when rocks are on field.  Of the mons you mentioned, I think Bronzor + Metang are the best counters (and only mons not weak to rocks), but I'm questioning their value outside of being a Roserade counter.  I guess to a certain extent they act as good psychic resists, but I feel there are more downsides than upsides towards running Bronzor + Metang.

 

16 minutes ago, Sebat said:
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 66-78 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusknoir: 48-58 (31.5 - 38.1%) -- 96.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Drifblim: 82-97 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

---

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 74-87 (34.1 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Heatproof Bronzor: 34-42 (20.7 - 25.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 66-79 (35.2 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 68-82 (35.2 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

 

Your calcs can be a bit incorrect because you're taking into account of toxic when sludge bomb poisons the target.  The difference is that on the first turn itself, you take 12% instead of 6%.


252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 122-146 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 129-152 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

 

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 126-149 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

 

(I don't know why the rolls differ for our calcs, maybe the BST changed for some of these mons (I used BW))

 

-------------------------------------------

 

I think it sucks that tournament replays will be used as the metric, because it's frustrating to play tournaments only to then get knocked out by something that is potentially broken in its respective tier.  I'd much prefer the smogon system where the top ladder players could vote on whether or not to ban it.  This would, unfortunately, require the staff to incentivize NU laddering by hosting leaderboard tournaments or prizes for the top ladder players.  

   

Edited by NikhilR
Link to comment
2 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

There's also way more rock setters than hazard removals, with the rock setters either outright 1v1ing the defoggers or being supported by a ghost to beat the spinners... oh look more common sense.

Yes, Ferrothorn beats Salamence Defog and Gengar can spin block Starmie, you are right. Stealth Rock users always win against defoggers and Spinners have no way to handle Ghost types... 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Yes, Ferrothorn beats Salamence Defog and Gengar can spin block Starmie, you are right. Stealth Rock users always win against defoggers and Spinners have no way to handle Ghost types... 

I didn't realize Ferrothorn, Salamence, Gengar and Starmie were in NU. But since you want to go there, Salamence can indeed defog against Ferrothorn, but it can't against Aero, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Chansey/Blissey, etc...see how easy it is to make a specific scenario favor your own argument? And technically Gengar can indeed spinblock Starmie, even if it dies doing so. Anyways, if you want to keep pretending Rocks should never be considered in damage calcs, then to each their own. After all, what can all the Smogon people possibly know better than the almighty gbwead.

48 minutes ago, Munya said:

My vote doesn't matter unless it reaches a stalemate, but I am favor of banning roserade.

But what about Durant?

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I didn't realize Ferrothorn, Salamence, Gengar and Starmie were in NU. But since you want to go there, Salamence can indeed defog against Ferrothorn, but it can't against Aero, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Chansey/Blissey, etc...see how easy it is to make a specific scenario favor your own argument? And technically Gengar can indeed spinblock Starmie, even if it dies doing so. Anyways, if you want to keep pretending Rocks should never be considered in damage calcs, then to each their own. After all, what can all the Smogon people possibly know better than the almighty gbwead.

After disregarding my argument that hazard control is easier in UU and OU and now going back on your own generalization about spinning and defogging, you now hide behind Smogon... Rocks calcs are a terrible argument to keep a pokemon from being tested. Blaziken would still be in BL2 and Mamoswine still in BL if rocks calc were a good argument.

Link to comment

Since wasting energy on this guy is completely useless, I have decided on a new approach method.

 

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

you now hide behind Smogon...

yeah I'm hiding behind Smogon, great argument bro you got me

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Rocks calcs are a terrible argument to keep a pokemon from being tested.

No they are not

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Blaziken would still be in BL2 and Mamoswine still in BL if rocks calc were a good argument.

No they would not. Well actually Mamoswine should be BL, but that's really TC's fault.

Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.