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eredita

Pick/Ban system in competitive

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In my opinion, the competitive scene is stale. I know we are adding a new region soon and that should make some things interesting temporarily, but every time we've added a new region the new Pokemon don't keep people's interest for a long time (I've been here for every region that has been added). I think PokeMMO should adopt a Pick/Ban system similar to League of Legends, where players can ban Pokemon from being used for both parties (obviously at a capped limit). Whenever I enter a tournament, I feel like whatever team I put together can still be countered randomly. We all know in any video game we have played, whenever something random happens against us, we hate it. Yes, I know some randomness to a degree is in every game, but in my opinion it is the Dev's duty to limit the amount of randomness to the lowest amount possible. This would certainly decrease the randomness in the game. Secondly, I think this would introduce endless amounts of strategies that a player can come up with. I don't think I really need to explain this point, it's a fact. Lastly, this would help the TC with balancing. There will be ban rates and pick rates, which can lead to tier shifts, and balancing by the devs if a pokemon is too OP. Right now we have usage rates, which is nice but the same pokemon are being used over and over and over again, and it becomes quite repetitive. People are going to get burnt out if they have to do the same thing again and again. I think if the right people planned something out, and tested this in matchmaking, it could easily be implemented in official tournaments in the near future, but if the Devs just sit around and ignore this, then we're going to be at the same point we are right now, just a stale competitive game.

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3 hours ago, suigin said:

I have fantasized about how this would work in practice numerous times since it's actually a fairly interesting idea,  but I believe in the end it's probably a bad idea to implement this.

Aside from the fact that you could simply ban out the checks and counters to certain fringe Pokemon and go ham with them, forcing people to also permanently ban them, you could also very easily ban out entire teams by removing a key component of them. A simple Pelipper ban would indirectly remove Kabutops, Mixnite and Kingdra from a player's usable pokemon pool. This would force newer players to take much, much longer to get into the comp scene and there's a big difference between grinding out 6 Pokemon to get started and grinding out 12 to avoid getting banned out.

Like you said, on the 2 minutes I thought of this topic, the only way I can see it being functional is: You bring (15?) candidates to choose from. Your opponent chooses (5?) to ban. You try to create a cohesive team from the (10?) remaining. Fill it in with whatever numbers you want. From that pool, players ban out the most versatile options you have, limiting your ability to create a cohesive team.

 

I don't find it terrible in concept, it's just.. a completely different game to what we have now, but with the same problems. You still lose in the "draft", you're just hoping you get lucky and the opponent misplays their bans so you can create the strategy you want. And if the issue is "grind" like the second post said, then I'm failing to see how it actually addresses it, and why this approach would be better than cutting out the middleman and just introducing some form of rentals for players who want to skip straight to PvP.

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I have fantasized about how this would work in practice numerous times since it's actually a fairly interesting idea,  but I believe in the end it's probably a bad idea to implement this.

Aside from the fact that you could simply ban out the checks and counters to certain fringe Pokemon and go ham with them, forcing people to also permanently ban them, you could also very easily ban out entire teams by removing a key component of them. A simple Pelipper ban would indirectly remove Kabutops, Mixnite and Kingdra from a player's usable pokemon pool. This would force newer players to take much, much longer to get into the comp scene and there's a big difference between grinding out 6 Pokemon to get started and grinding out 12 to avoid getting banned out.

Edited by suigin

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41 minutes ago, suigin said:

I have fantasized about how this would work in practice numerous times since it's actually a fairly interesting idea,  but I believe in the end it's probably a bad idea to implement this.

Aside from the fact that you could simply ban out the checks and counters to certain fringe Pokemon and go ham with them, forcing people to also permanently ban them, you could also very easily ban out entire teams by removing a key component of them. A simple Pelipper ban would indirectly remove Kabutops, Mixnite and Kingdra from a player's usable pokemon pool. This would force newer players to take much, much longer to get into the comp scene and there's a big difference between grinding out 6 Pokemon to get started and grinding out 12 to avoid getting banned out.

I understand where you're coming from but there's a simple fix to this and it is to get rid of GrindMMO. I understand this is an MMO and grinding should be part of the game in some form, but the fact that LITERALLY EVERYTHING is a grind is ridiculous. It is so unappealing, and it has driven hundreds away from this game. If the grind is an easier process then more pokemon can be bred to help newer players learn. the sand/sun/rain teams are not the only teams that can be run in this game, and I've been stomped by teams that counter my rain teams, sand teams etc. I think the pros outweigh the cons with this system, and it is definitely something that should be given a shot.

Even an unofficial tournament or something of that sort should try it, but I still feel like Devs/TC won't even give this a shot due to past stubbornness I've witnessed.

Edited by eredita

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37 minutes ago, Kyu said:

Like you said, on the 2 minutes I thought of this topic, the only way I can see it being functional is: You bring (15?) candidates to choose from. Your opponent chooses (5?) to ban. You try to create a cohesive team from the (10?) remaining. Fill it in with whatever numbers you want. From that pool, players ban out the most versatile options you have, limiting your ability to create a cohesive team.

 

I don't find it terrible in concept, it's just.. a completely different game to what we have now, but with the same problems. You still lose in the "draft", you're just hoping you get lucky and the opponent misplays their bans so you can create the strategy you want. And if the issue is "grind" like the second post said, then I'm failing to see how it actually addresses it, and why this approach would be better than cutting out the middleman and just introducing some form of rentals for players who want to skip straight to PvP.

Why does it need to be capped at 15 pokemon possible to use... why can't you have access to your whole PC (obviously you can't use OU in UU, UU in NU, and etc)? 

I don't think you necessarily lose in the draft, because your opponent wouldn't be banning based off your team, they would be banning pokemon they simply prefer not to play against. I have no problem with grinding in games, it's just that everything is a grind and its extremely one dimensional. In my eyes there is little variety in this game, and when you're grinding the same thing over and over again it gets stale and the game becomes unplayable, I don't know how hard that is to understand. I think this should definitely be considered somehow. I understand that it would take an update and people to get together to come up with something that is fair and balanced, but how will we ever know the results if we don't try it. Clearly the current system right now is not the most popular among the players. I think if @ProfesorEinsteinnn hosted unofficial tournaments, trying a rule set of Pick/Ban (or some form of it) created by the TC, and to test it out, we would get a much clearer picture of how it could work/how it could not work in the game.

Edited by eredita

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@Tranzmaster hosted a tourny like this many years ago.

It was a fun gimmick, but balancewise suboptimal to normal tournaments/duels, for a couple of reasons suigin said.

It does require players to increase their competitive pokepool by a lot in order to generate synergous teamcomps due to bans.

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I find it funny that 99.9% of the time, it's the no names claiming that the competitive scene is stale, boring, predictable, etc so they make up nonsense like this thread.

 

"Whenever I enter a tournament, I feel like whatever team I put together can still be countered randomly."

Oh really? Who could have thought that there's never perfect teams and that flaws in teambuilds are always bound to happen? So basically you build a team, see a counter to it and then ban that counter, then proceed to 6-0 your opponent. Now that sounds pretty fun and balanced lol. And like Suigin pointed out, this is easily abusable, like banning Pelipper from a rain team makes that team completely useless. Banning Cofagrigus from a certain stall team makes Mienshao/Conkeldurr go ham on it, etc.

"Yes, I know some randomness to a degree is in every game, but in my opinion it is the Dev's duty to limit the amount of randomness to the lowest amount possible. This would certainly decrease the randomness in the game."

It's really not their duty to do that. This has always been one of the key components of competitive mons and will always continue to be.

 

You're always welcomed to host an unofficial tournament under these weird gimmick rules, but I very much doubt the playerbase would want to have this implemented in officials.

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1 hour ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I find it funny that 99.9% of the time, it's the no names claiming that the competitive scene is stale, boring, predictable, etc so they make up nonsense like this thread.

 

"Whenever I enter a tournament, I feel like whatever team I put together can still be countered randomly."

Oh really? Who could have thought that there's never perfect teams and that flaws in teambuilds are always bound to happen? So basically you build a team, see a counter to it and then ban that counter, then proceed to 6-0 your opponent. Now that sounds pretty fun and balanced lol. And like Suigin pointed out, this is easily abusable, like banning Pelipper from a rain team makes that team completely useless. Banning Cofagrigus from a certain stall team makes Mienshao/Conkeldurr go ham on it, etc.

"Yes, I know some randomness to a degree is in every game, but in my opinion it is the Dev's duty to limit the amount of randomness to the lowest amount possible. This would certainly decrease the randomness in the game."

It's really not their duty to do that. This has always been one of the key components of competitive mons and will always continue to be.

 

You're always welcomed to host an unofficial tournament under these weird gimmick rules, but I very much doubt the playerbase would want to have this implemented in officials.

Why does it matter that I'm a no name? I've been a member since 2013 (off and on I'll admit) and I've been playing competitive video games for 10 years now. I've literally watched the team fortress 2 community die the slowest death ever because Valve values unusual hats over the competitive scene, thus showing no support for almost the entirety of the game's life. You don't need to be the best player to notice something that is wrong with a meta. I refuse to reply to any point you make unless you change your mindset. Even kyu was somewhat open-minded to this.

Edited by eredita

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Maybe not a offical format since it gonna affect a huge amount of players and make competitive even less newbie friendly. But some gimmick format for seasonal competitions would be good, even to help TC with possible ban hates. In an example it would look like Draft/Arena format examples (comparing to card games, like in hearthstone where you can participate in an arena without have a deck, just drafting random cards) 

 

Ofc it couldn't be able to do in pokemmo due to the Mmo factor, but think in a more complex version of battle factory and a less RNG version of random battles. (And you can make it seasonal so it doesn't remove the main focus of the game)

 

The game need some fresh future wise content 

 

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May as well implement the usual battle spot singles then (enter with 6 and pick 3). It's at least somehow more balanced than this and has the benefit to be an actually existing format

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1 hour ago, Risadex said:

Maybe not a offical format since it gonna affect a huge amount of players and make competitive even less newbie friendly. But some gimmick format for seasonal competitions would be good, even to help TC with possible ban hates. In an example it would look like Draft/Arena format examples (comparing to card games, like in hearthstone where you can participate in an arena without have a deck, just drafting random cards) 

 

Ofc it couldn't be able to do in pokemmo due to the Mmo factor, but think in a more complex version of battle factory and a less RNG version of random battles. (And you can make it seasonal so it doesn't remove the main focus of the game)

 

The game need some fresh future wise content 

 

Oh a draft format for pokemon would be fun imo, hard to implement and require constant attention.  This format would be pokeMMO specific and super unique.  You have my vote.

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