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Make the ai trainers more like in the games


Resurgence47

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Make it so the Ai trainers are more like they are in the game meaning they don't switch out or always go for your weakness or constantly spam status moves because it is nearly impossible for someone like me, who just wants to play casually against these tournament tier ai

Edited by Resurgence47
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1 hour ago, Resurgence47 said:

Make it so the Ai trainers are more like they are in the game meaning they don't switch out or always go for your weakness or constantly spam status moves because it is nearly impossible for someone like me, who just wants to play casually against these tournament tier ai

How about no? Trainers are supposed to be a challenge cause in the main games, AI was so bad that it was meme worthy

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3 hours ago, Resurgence47 said:

Make it so the Ai trainers are more like they are in the game meaning they don't switch out or always go for your weakness or constantly spam status moves because it is nearly impossible for someone like me, who just wants to play casually against these tournament tier ai

Hello Resurgence47, I hope your day was a swell one. As to your concern, there has been quite a few people messaging me and the forums about this particular topic. This is a MMO Environment, so there needs to be a difficulty curve in order to maintenance balance in the economic ecosystem in this game.

 

As for ways to handle the difficulty scale of the NPCs here on PokeMMO, I would highly suggest for you to buy some resources from the Global Trade Link or Trade Chat and try to put them into good use. If you're dealing with the NPCs, then the comp does not have to be perfect. As long as it does a good amount of damage to the NPCs, your pokemon is fit for the job. However, Gym Leader Battles, Elite Four Battles, Battle Frontier Battles, and PvP Battles are a completely different story. Your competitive pokemon need to be either perfect or close to perfect and you need a good amount of Team Synergy.

 

If you need any further assistance on this topic, then please feel free to PM me on Forums.

 

- Bf

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8 hours ago, Bestfriends said:

Hello Resurgence47, I hope your day was a swell one. As to your concern, there has been quite a few people messaging me and the forums about this particular topic. This is a MMO Environment, so there needs to be a difficulty curve in order to maintenance balance in the economic ecosystem in this game.

 

As for ways to handle the difficulty scale of the NPCs here on PokeMMO, I would highly suggest for you to buy some resources from the Global Trade Link or Trade Chat and try to put them into good use. If you're dealing with the NPCs, then the comp does not have to be perfect. As long as it does a good amount of damage to the NPCs, your pokemon is fit for the job. However, Gym Leader Battles, Elite Four Battles, Battle Frontier Battles, and PvP Battles are a completely different story. Your competitive pokemon need to be either perfect or close to perfect and you need a good amount of Team Synergy.

 

If you need any further assistance on this topic, then please feel free to PM me on Forums.

 

- Bf

The thing is I can't even get 4 badges so I can't use the global trade link or trade chat

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12 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

If it’s too difficult for you, there is absolutely no shame in quitting the game.

Care to lead by example? No? Don't use this type of argument, this type of post only serves to alienate players more than you've alienated yourself.

 

13 hours ago, Resurgence47 said:

Make it so the Ai trainers are more like they are in the game meaning they don't switch out or always go for your weakness or constantly spam status moves because it is nearly impossible for someone like me, who just wants to play casually against these tournament tier ai

There are a number of threads around where players have offered tips for players struggling with the changes to the AI. The large issue with reverting it back to the original games is that the base games have no AI. The moves used by NPCs were chosen solely by RNG in the vast majority of cases. The AI here, while more competent, is a long way from being tournament tier. It's done things, that have since been fixed, like spam Roost when it could easily KO the opponent if it used a damaging move. Does that mean that the AI can't be outsmarted? No, there are still things you can do to get around it. The biggest hitch the AI has is when you throw something at it that keeps it locked into a loop where it doesn't have a better move than to switch or use moves that do no damage. There is also a pattern that the AI uses as well, it varies by team it is facing, but you are very likely to succeed if you pick up the pattern and outmaneuver the AI. If you would like some help figuring out if there is anything with your team that you could be doing better feel free to reach out in Competitive Assistance. While not strictly competitive, the advice that can be garnered there is infinitely more valuable than anything else I could tell you.

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9 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

The large issue with reverting it back to the original games is that the base games have no AI. The moves used by NPCs were chosen solely by RNG in the vast majority of cases.

Not true. There does exist AI in the vanilla games.

Ex: In R/B/Y, the AI was made so opposing trainers(or at least Gym/E4) chose moves that were super effective against your own Pokémon

(in fact, there’s a whole video about getting yourself into a softlock against Lorelei with a primeape that only knows rage)

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14 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Not true. There does exist AI in the vanilla games.

Ex: In R/B/Y, the AI was made so opposing trainers(or at least Gym/E4) chose moves that were super effective against your own Pokémon

(in fact, there’s a whole video about getting yourself into a softlock against Lorelei with a primeape that only knows rage)

that's probably why he said "in the vast majority of cases", so people like you don't bring up broken gen 1 games. 

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Hi everyone, I'm new to PokeMMO and just discovered and started playing like three days ago, but I just wanted to say that I don't find any problems with the difficulty curve that has been implemented. It was a bit of a shock to me that I was actually have trouble beating Burgh the first few times, but nothing that can't be solved with a little bit of strategic training. I've been playing Pokémon console games since I was in grade school, and I actually really appreciate the change: it makes it more of a challenge, and the smart AIs/level caps force us to focus on more than 1-2 Pokémon at a time - which allows us to round out our team better than we would in the OG games.

 

Train a few wild Pokémon that have move/type advantages against the Gym leaders, OP. You'll get there.

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11 minutes ago, Kat said:

Hi everyone, I'm new to PokeMMO and just discovered and started playing like three days ago, but I just wanted to say that I don't find any problems with the difficulty curve that has been implemented. It was a bit of a shock to me that I was actually have trouble beating Burgh the first few times, but nothing that can't be solved with a little bit of strategic training. I've been playing Pokémon console games since I was in grade school, and I actually really appreciate the change: it makes it more of a challenge, and the smart AIs/level caps force us to focus on more than 1-2 Pokémon at a time - which allows us to round out our team better than we would in the OG games.

 

Train a few wild Pokémon that have move/type advantages against the Gym leaders, OP. You'll get there.

Agreed. No more starter sweeps, now you need more than just a high level starter for some gyms. Which is a nice change from the main series, where just going ham with your starter will win against most gyms

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6 hours ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Not true. There does exist AI in the vanilla games.

Ex: In R/B/Y, the AI was made so opposing trainers(or at least Gym/E4) chose moves that were super effective against your own Pokémon

(in fact, there’s a whole video about getting yourself into a softlock against Lorelei with a primeape that only knows rage)

 

5 hours ago, Minks said:

that's probably why he said "in the vast majority of cases", so people like you don't bring up broken gen 1 games. 

^ This exactly. There was some degree of AI, but it was largely potato. I'm speaking more of the cases where an opposing NPC would sometimes choose something like say Tail Whip when you are down to 1HP and allow you to KO their Pokemon.

 

When the majority of the moves are chosen by RNG, there may as well be no AI at all.

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35 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

 

^ This exactly. There was some degree of AI, but it was largely potato. I'm speaking more of the cases where an opposing NPC would sometimes choose something like say Tail Whip when you are down to 1HP and allow you to KO their Pokemon.

 

When the majority of the moves are chosen by RNG, there may as well be no AI at all.

And not a real problem with that story-wise. The game doesn't need to go hard mode on players until after they beat the 3 storylines. All that does is discourage them to where the potential exists where they just quit.

Post-game trainers in vanilla games actually have pretty decent AI. I refer to the ones that you see in Battle Frontier, Battle Tree, etc. They aren't easy to beat and they actually do switch out.

Edited by BoltBlades12
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27 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

And not a real problem with that story-wise. The game doesn't need to go hard mode on players until after they beat the 3 storylines. All that does is discourage them to where the potential exists where they just quit.

Post-game trainers in vanilla games actually have pretty decent AI. I refer to the ones that you see in Battle Frontier, Battle Tree, etc. They aren't easy to beat and they actually do switch out.

That's strange, I thought the enhanced AI provides a good challenge and makes you think about ways to outmanoeuvre the situation at hand. Once you figure out the pattern, then it is quite simple to defeat the whole story. All it takes is patience and anaylizing patterns. Maybe some pokemon may help you out on the way, but it shouldn't be too hard to find out what you need. For example, the 4th gym in Kanto consists of Grass Type pokemon and I can catch either Growleth or Vulpix at Route 7. Train them up and rebattle the gym.

 

When any pokemon game is released, the AI has to be not that good due to the demographic that are playing these games. Children don't have the mental capacity that adults do, so with that in mind, the AI had to be significantly lowered. Even in the Battle Frontier, the AI is lower to average level of intelligence.

 

PokeMMO's demographic largely consist of people +18 in age, so the AI has to be cranked up just to compensate for enhanced mental capacity.

 

Spoiler

As I mentioned before, this is a MMO environment, so there has to be a slight difficulty curve. If you do not want to deal with the difficulty curve, then you can order a copy of Ruby, Sapphire, or Emerald.

 

 

Edited by Bestfriends
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17 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

PokeMMO's demographic largely consist of people +18 in age, so the AI has to be cranked up just to compensate for enhanced mental capacity.

I don’t believe the demographic is mostly 18+, because the last time I checked, there isn’t exactly an “age restriction” here(which would actually be a pretty good idea come to think about it, but that would be for a different discussion)

Edited by BoltBlades12
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1 hour ago, BoltBlades12 said:

And not a real problem with that story-wise. The game doesn't need to go hard mode on players until after they beat the 3 storylines. All that does is discourage them to where the potential exists where they just quit.

Post-game trainers in vanilla games actually have pretty decent AI. I refer to the ones that you see in Battle Frontier, Battle Tree, etc. They aren't easy to beat and they actually do switch out.

The game also doesn't need to be super easy either. There is nothing wrong with having a semi competent AI. To give you an idea, I've been playing FireRed with only Spinda and I have 4 badges and thus far have needed 3 attempts at most for important battles. The vanilla AI has had me 1 hit from being KO'd and instead of doing so it used Tail Whip or some other non damaging move. It's /that/ potato, and this is the gym leaders. Being that this is an MMO, having a larger learning curve is necessary to prevent chasing the proverbial rabbit as far as keeping cash influx in check. The large reason for the complaints is because no one is used to playing against NPCs that play somewhat like a real person, but the problem is that bringing that kind of design back 1) creates a two standard system in which you have to effectively manage pseudo AI for two different tiers of play (not a good thing to do) and 2) makes players feel even more frustrated when they finally reach endgame content and the difficulty goes from 0 to 100 with no warning.

36 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

I don’t believe the demographic is mostly 18+, because the last time I checked, there isn’t exactly an “age restriction” here(which would actually be a pretty good idea come to think about it, but that would be for a different discussion)



Eligibility. You acknowledge that You are an adult in your country of residence. You agree to these Terms of Service on your behalf or for (1) minor, who is not under the age of 13, for whom you are a parent or guardian and whom you have authorized to play the Game using the license granted to You. You acknowledge that your command and knowledge of the English language is sufficient to understand the terms and conditions set forth herein.

 

That is a standard clause in most TOS contracts, and while kids lie about their age all the time, that is a restriction. I would estimate based on experience the primary demographic in PokeMMO is 16+ whereas the target demographic for the vanilla games is still children between 6 and 13.

 

 

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@Resurgence47 Hello,

The purpose of the AI for trainers in this game generally being harder is in order to try and leap-frog off of the base-game's difficulty to act as a stepping-stone towards PvP as the base AI is ill-prepared to represent how battles vs. players work (e.g. You can't freely swap out after beating a Pokemon to keep momentum, and you wouldn't be able to generally expect players to go for awful move choices effectively throwing the game (though players can do this sometimes it's not the norm)).

It is deliberately meant to be somewhat challenging while not being absurdly difficult if you are actively prepared, this also is meant to serve to introduce team building as you cannot over-level the opponents drastically and thus need a varied party with several Pokemon.

In order to better prepare players for PvP (and to also provide a bit of spice from players who, at this stage in their life, find the base games a little too easy) it is overall a beneficial conscious choice for them to be more difficult. This does not mean that balancing for the AI will ever reach literal perfection as that's an unrealistic standard, so if you do believe that a specific case is abnormally difficult to an extreme compared to other areas of the game (e.g. on a route for level 20-25 you encounter a trainer with 5 Level 28 pokemon, which would be pretty devastating usually) feel free to mention them specifically as while we won't be changing AI overall to be as easy as the base games, the option of changing what pokemon / items / level that AI trainer has access to is something that is very much a possible thing to do in the case of such oversights. But again, it is a deliberate conscious choice for them to be a moderate challenge for the average player.

For these reasons, I can safely say that the heart of your suggestion (to nerf trainer AI / NPC battles to the level of the original games) will likely not happen in PokeMMO.

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6 hours ago, Matoka said:

@Resurgence47 Hello,

The purpose of the AI for trainers in this game generally being harder is in order to try and leap-frog off of the base-game's difficulty to act as a stepping-stone towards PvP as the base AI is ill-prepared to represent how battles vs. players work (e.g. You can't freely swap out after beating a Pokemon to keep momentum, and you wouldn't be able to generally expect players to go for awful move choices effectively throwing the game (though players can do this sometimes it's not the norm)).

It is deliberately meant to be somewhat challenging while not being absurdly difficult if you are actively prepared, this also is meant to serve to introduce team building as you cannot over-level the opponents drastically and thus need a varied party with several Pokemon.

In order to better prepare players for PvP (and to also provide a bit of spice from players who, at this stage in their life, find the base games a little too easy) it is overall a beneficial conscious choice for them to be more difficult. This does not mean that balancing for the AI will ever reach literal perfection as that's an unrealistic standard, so if you do believe that a specific case is abnormally difficult to an extreme compared to other areas of the game (e.g. on a route for level 20-25 you encounter a trainer with 5 Level 28 pokemon, which would be pretty devastating usually) feel free to mention them specifically as while we won't be changing AI overall to be as easy as the base games, the option of changing what pokemon / items / level that AI trainer has access to is something that is very much a possible thing to do in the case of such oversights. But again, it is a deliberate conscious choice for them to be a moderate challenge for the average player.

For these reasons, I can safely say that the heart of your suggestion (to nerf trainer AI / NPC battles to the level of the original games) will likely not happen in PokeMMO.

For the record, i have little to no problem with the ai not being as dumb as a fencepost in pokemmo, i feel like that's a breath of fresh air when compared to the actual games. I do object to the idea of trying to make PvE emulate and prepare you for PvP, as i'm sure i'm not the only one who's not the slightest bit interested in PvP. In addition to that, there are small quality of life tweaks that i could see being implemented without compromising the balance or difficulty of the NPC trainers and gyms. Such as getting locked in a back and forth pokemon switch with a computer when trying to counter their pokemons type/moveset. Seriously, on two occasions i've had an NPC go back and forth with me trying to counter my pokemon after i just countered his long enough for both the ai and i to nearly rotate through all six of our slots twice! That's both not fun and a great way to indicate that certain things in the pokemon games we're never designed for human versus human intelligence when they came up with those mechanics 20 something years ago.

 

Edited by Pizzachu
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1 hour ago, Pizzachu said:

Such as getting locked in a back and forth pokemon switch with a computer when trying to counter their pokemons type/moveset.

I don't think people realize this, but these switches are pretty abusable. As a PVE junkie and learning to their patterns and general logic, there are still a lot of decision making faults that the AI will still make. Such as, switching into a grass type to counter you water type while not being smart enough to realize you carry ice beam.

 

Stuff like this is the beginning basis to PVP, by making sure to counter switches themselves. The only thing is that the AI will always be undoubtedly dumber than a human opponent in this case.

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18 minutes ago, Raichuforyou said:

I don't think people realize this, but these switches are pretty abusable. As a PVE junkie and learning to their patterns and general logic, there are still a lot of decision making faults that the AI will still make. Such as, switching into a grass type to counter you water type while not being smart enough to realize you carry ice beam.

 

Stuff like this is the beginning basis to PVP, by making sure to counter switches themselves. The only thing is that the AI will always be undoubtedly dumber than a human opponent in this case.

True. You can abuse having a counter to super effective switch ins. Like a water move on a grass type or flying move on a water type

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1 hour ago, Raichuforyou said:

I don't think people realize this, but these switches are pretty abusable. As a PVE junkie and learning to their patterns and general logic, there are still a lot of decision making faults that the AI will still make. Such as, switching into a grass type to counter you water type while not being smart enough to realize you carry ice beam.

 

Stuff like this is the beginning basis to PVP, by making sure to counter switches themselves. The only thing is that the AI will always be undoubtedly dumber than a human opponent in this case.

That's... actually a very good idea. While probably easier to do once you're a bit further in than you'd typically get frustrated by such a tactic. But that's definitely something that would be useful to be told in the trainer schools early on in the different regions.

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On 9/9/2019 at 4:57 PM, Pizzachu said:

For the record, i have little to no problem with the ai not being as dumb as a fencepost in pokemmo, i feel like that's a breath of fresh air when compared to the actual games. I do object to the idea of trying to make PvE emulate and prepare you for PvP, as i'm sure i'm not the only one who's not the slightest bit interested in PvP. 

 

Actually, it's not only meant to teach new players how to play in PvP- it should prepare you for PvE content as well.

Our gyms are harder, and our events so far were harder than usual challenges as well. If a player will be able to basically walk through the whole storyline, he will learn nothing in terms of teambuilding, stats, etc. Sudden difficulty change makes player basically hit a wall- suddenly he needs to learn about team building, stats, best moves after he just casually beat the gyms and all npcs.

 

The way I see it, increasing difficulty step by step is better for that, because after gym 8 and elite 4, the player usually knows about type advantages, how to make his team more balanced, and importance of stats and natures. When after storyline he will challenge gyms, he will adapt more easily to that, and when any event (or potentially dungeons) will come, he is more prepared than the standard player who beat storyline on handheld games.

Does it help to prepare for PvP? A bit too, yes, but it's more about PvE imo. 

 

 

(Im not disagreeing with your whole posts, I just wanted to address the PvP preparation part ^^)

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PvE is pretty easy if you understand the basic concepts of type effectiveness, what a move's power is, the fact that a move will do more damage if it's the same type as the user, and that there are certain pokemon better at certain things (physical attacks, special attacks, defense etc.) than others. That's what battling against this game's AI is meant to teach you. And that's all you need to know to make story a breeze. I do wish the vanilla games were better at explaining these mechanics (like in Let's Go, but that's geared towards babies so it makes sense), but stuff that makes a difference in PvP like EVs and IVs don't matter in story.

 

You just need to know basic type effectiveness and what a Pokemon's most useful stats are, which the in-game Pokedex tells you. Oh and focus on having a wide coverage of moves but that's a requirement in vanilla games too. The AI here is meant to be a challenge so you learn how to play the game instead of brute force your way through it c:

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On 9/13/2019 at 5:51 PM, BoltBlades12 said:

While I do agree with the simplicity of LGPE, I did like how they had requirements you had to fulfill to take on the Gyms. Like having certain types or certain levels.

Well yeah but that's irrelevant here, this game assumes you've had some exposure to Pokemon games before playing this

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I realize this is a bit of a necro thread. But I feel there is still relevance to this.

While I myself do not mind challenging battles (in fact, I prefer them), I do have a problem with the trainers constantly switching in and out pokemon. A lot of the time it doesn't even make sense and work to my advantage. But the main problem I have with it is that it makes it near impossible to reliably level a weak pokemon early game (for example Magikarp). And since we do not get exp share until much later this becomes a prominent issue. If temporary. It is however, a problem.

 

Please consider balancing this, at least for the early game encounters as at this point it wont really add any difficulty but is only making our lives harder.

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