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gbwead

[LC Discussion] Diglett - Test Ban

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Over the past couple months, the LC metagame has been heavily centralised around the same threats; while Misdreavus' and Mienfoo's usages have risen over 60% usage, Clamperl has exerted its dominance over the tier and has forced everyone to overly prepare for it.

 

Many consider the LC tier as the least interesting official tier partly because of the centralising issues described above, as well as in August and September Discussion threads. Several things could be done:

  • Accept that LC is inherently unhealthy and can’t really be fixed
  • Ban Misdreavus
  • Ban Mienfoo
  • Ban Clamperl or Deep Sea Tooth
  • Ban a combination of Misdreavus and/or Mienfoo and/or Clamperl.

 

However, before giving up on the tier or initiate drastic bans, the Tier Council believes that test banning Diglett could help break the LC vicious circle (Mienfoo + Misdreavus + Porygon/Munchlax) that represent most of LC cores and make some of Clamperl checks more viable.

 

During this test ban, we hope and expect that:

  • The usage of Misdreavus will drop; fighting types and clamperl should gain more checks and become less viable, so Misdreavus should not be as indispensable as it was before.
  • The usage of Mienfoo will drop because some fighting checks should become more viable, namely poison types and Larvesta.
  • The usage of Clamperl will drop because Tentacool and Chinchou should become more viable and Diglett will no longer be there to support Clamperl with Stealth Rocks and Memento.
  • More LC mons become viable and played; 28 LC pokemon are above the 4.36% cut-off point right now.
  • The mons that were previously weak to Diglett or any new potential threat do not grow out of control.
  • Trapinch will not replace Diglett and prevent metagame development.

 

Feel free to give your input in this thread during the test ban.

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Given the what this topic is, i figure it fair that this be shared with this thread outside of the TC as well, late-mid month LC usage to see how its going.

Spoiler

Mienfoo 274 73.66%
Misdreavus 240 64.52%
Vullaby 160 43.01%
Ferroseed 152 40.86%
Porygon 122 32.80%
Onix 95 25.54%
Clamperl 83 22.31%
Munchlax 78 20.97%
Tentacool 67 18.01%
Grimer 60 16.13%
Bronzor 56 15.05%
Chinchou 56 15.05%
Timburr 48 12.90%
Magnemite 40 10.75%
Staryu 40 10.75%
Elekid 35 9.41%
Dwebble 30 8.06%
Larvesta 28 7.53%
Gastly 28 7.53%
Pawniard 25 6.72%
Koffing 23 6.18%
Frillish 22 5.91%
Abra 22 5.91%
Taillow 21 5.65%
Shellder 20 5.38%
Trapinch 17 4.57%
Swablu 17 4.57%
Ponyta 15 4.03%
Meowth 14 3.76%
Poliwag 14 3.76%
Sandile 14 3.76%
Trubbish 14 3.76%
Venonat 14 3.76%
Anorith 13 3.49%
Axew 13 3.49%
Omanyte 13 3.49%
Voltorb 13 3.49%
Wooper 13 3.49%
Yamask 13 3.49%
Hippopotas 11 2.96%
Drifloon 11 2.96%
Drilbur 10 2.69%
Snivy 10 2.69%
Archen 9 2.42%
Rufflet 9 2.42%
Slowpoke 9 2.42%
Cyndaquil 8 2.15%
Houndour 8 2.15%
Pineco 8 2.15%
Cacnea 7 1.88%
Dratini 7 1.88%
Magby 7 1.88%
Electrike 6 1.61%
Growlithe 5 1.34%
Krabby 5 1.34%
Sandshrew 5 1.34%
Duskull 4 1.08%
Gulpin 4 1.08%
Horsea 4 1.08%
Riolu 3 0.81%
Cottonee 3 0.81%
Foongus 3 0.81%
Aipom 2 0.54%
Budew 2 0.54%
Bulbasaur 2 0.54%
Doduo 2 0.54%
Ducklett 2 0.54%
Lileep 2 0.54%
Nosepass 2 0.54%
Spoink 2 0.54%
Swinub 2 0.54%
Treecko 2 0.54%
Vulpix 2 0.54%
Woobat 2 0.54%
Zigzagoon 2 0.54%
Zubat 2 0.54%
Shelmet 1 0.27%
Charmander 1 0.27%
Bagon 1 0.27%
Buizel 1 0.27%
Carvanha 1 0.27%
Darumaka 1 0.27%
Deerling 1 0.27%
Deino 1 0.27%
Ekans 1 0.27%
Exeggcute 1 0.27%
Finneon 1 0.27%
Geodude 1 0.27%
Machop 1 0.27%
Mankey 1 0.27%
Mudkip 1 0.27%
Numel 1 0.27%
Psyduck 1 0.27%
Seel 1 0.27%
Sewaddle 1 0.27%
Shroomish 1 0.27%
Solosis 1 0.27%
Tirtouga 1 0.27%
Torchic 1 0.27%
Wailmer 1 0.27%
Wingull 1 0.27%
Zorua 1 0.27%

 

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LMFAO at mienfoo´s usage.

For a moment I thought banning diglett was done so mienfoo would decrease usage

Or so was said

Edited by pachima

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So how's it going with Mienfoo and Misdreavus usage? Did diglet's ban affect in any way their usage, yet? 

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On 10/19/2019 at 2:42 PM, Laz said:

So how's it going with Mienfoo and Misdreavus usage? Did diglet's ban affect in any way their usage, yet? 

Prior to the Diglett ban, the LC usage looked like this:

Spoiler
Misdreavus 65.89%
Mienfoo 63.74%
Ferroseed 43.21%
Vullaby 42.88%
Porygon 32.28%
Clamperl 29.80%
Onix 23.34%
Timburr 20.20%
Chinchou 19.21%
Grimer 18.87%
Munchlax 14.74%
Diglett 14.57%
Tentacool 12.75%
Bronzor 12.42%
Staryu 9.60%
Gastly 8.44%
Abra 8.11%
Elekid 7.28%
Dwebble 7.12%
Larvesta 6.79%
Ponyta 6.79%
Cottonee 6.62%
Magnemite 6.13%
Frillish 5.30%
Pawniard 5.13%
Krabby 4.64%
Taillow 4.64%
Koffing 4.47%
Meowth 4.30%
Axew 4.30%
Shellder 4.14%
Yamask 4.14%
Voltorb 3.48%
Tirtouga 3.15%
Slowpoke 2.98%
Magby 2.98%
Numel 2.65%
Sandile 2.65%
Drilbur 2.15%
Squirtle 1.99%
Zorua 1.99%
Wynaut 1.82%
Archen 1.82%
Drifloon 1.82%
Rufflet 1.82%
Venonat 1.82%
Wooper 1.82%
Duskull 1.49%
Hippopotas 1.49%
Darumaka 1.32%
Snivy 1.32%
Zubat 1.32%
Ekans 1.16%
Omanyte 1.16%
Sandshrew 1.16%

 

Today, 2 months within the Diglett test ban, the LC Usage looks like this:

Spoiler
Mienfoo 65.05%
Misdreavus 59.86%
Vullaby 57.35%
Ferroseed 36.56%
Onix 29.57%
Porygon 28.85%
Grimer 23.66%
Chinchou 20.61%
Clamperl 18.64%
Tentacool 17.92%
Timburr 17.20%
Munchlax 15.05%
Magnemite 13.80%
Bronzor 10.93%
Elekid 9.86%
Gastly 8.78%
Larvesta 8.78%
Dwebble 8.60%
Frillish 7.53%
Taillow 7.35%
Abra 6.45%
Koffing 5.73%
Ponyta 5.56%
Staryu 5.56%
Trapinch 5.38%
Axew 5.38%
Pawniard 5.02%
Tirtouga 3.58%
Drilbur 3.41%
Voltorb 3.41%
Hippopotas 3.23%
Magby 3.23%
Sandile 3.23%
Ekans 3.05%
Venonat 3.05%
Anorith 2.69%
Budew 2.51%
Omanyte 2.33%
Rufflet 2.33%
Doduo 2.15%
Drifloon 2.15%
Swablu 2.15%
Yamask 2.15%
Meowth 1.97%
Shellder 1.97%
Pineco 1.97%
Dratini 1.79%
Wailmer 1.79%
Foongus 1.61%
Poliwag 1.43%
Wooper 1.43%
Aipom 1.25%
Archen 1.25%
Corphish 1.25%
Houndour 1.25%
Klink 1.25%
Krabby 1.25%
Snivy 1.25%
Trubbish 1.25%
Zigzagoon 1.25%
Cottonee 1.08%
Aron 1.08%
Lileep 1.08%
Darumaka 1.08%

 

The table below sums up the usage changes since the test ban:

Spoiler
LC Mons Usage Change
Misdreavus -6.03%
Mienfoo +1.31%
Ferroseed -6.65%
Vullaby +14.47%
Porygon -3.43%
Clamperl -11.16%
Chinchou +1.4%
Timburr -3.00%
Onix +6.23%
Grimer +4.79%
Diglett  
Munchlax +0.31
Bronzor -1.49%
Tentacool +5.17%
Staryu -4.04%
Elekid +2.58%
Meowth -2.33%
Gastly +0.34%
Magnemite +7.67%
Larvesta +1.99%
Frillish +2.23%
Dwebble +1.48%
Ponyta -1.23%
Pawniard -0.11%
Shellder -2.17%
Slowpoke -2.44%
Taillow +2.71%
Rufflet +0.51%
Voltorb -0.07%
Cottonee -5.54%
Koffing +1.26%
Abra -1.66%
Yamask -1.99%
Axew +1.08%
Ekans +1.89%
Hippopotas +1.74%
Magby +0.25%
Sandshrew -0.62%
Zubat -0.78%
Drilbur +1.26%
Tirtouga +0.43%
Venonat +1.23%
Darumaka -0.24%
Sandile +0.58%
Charmander -0.65%
Solosis -0.14%
Krabby -3.39%

 

Misdreavus lost 6.03% in usage and lost 11.16% in usage, but Mienfoo gained 1.31% in usage. As expected, most pokemon that were weak to Diglett and nearly all ground types have gained a lot of usage:

Spoiler
LC Mons Usage Change
Chinchou +1.4%
Onix +6.23%
Grimer +4.79%
Tentacool +5.17%
Elekid +2.58%
Magnemite +7.67%
Larvesta +1.99%
Ponyta -1.23%
Voltorb -0.07%
Abra -1.66%
Ekans +1.89%
Trapinch +5.38%

So far, despite its growth in usage (0% --> 5.38%), Trapinch did not prevent the mons that were weak to Diglett to rise in usage. Also, despite Chinchou, Onix, Magnemite and Elekid gaining a lot of usage, Vullaby still gained more with +14.47%, so it's fair to say that Electric types did not grow out of control now that Diglett is gone.

 

The meta seems slightly more centralized than before the test ban. There used to be 28 mons over 4.36%. Now, there are only 27 mons over 4.36%. The usage standard deviation gained 0.50% since September which is not good. However, we are far away from the month of August where LC was in a terrible place and the second month of test ban is overall better than first month.

 

Imo, the test ban is promising, but not a complete success either. I believe LC is on the right track and the test ban should be extended to a third month.

 

Edited by gbwead

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I think that the only major thing to really look at is the 11% drop of usage with Clamperl. 29,80% usage itself wasn't something to just instaban a Pokemon obviously, but the way Diglett + Clamperl worked was something we previously would have called "uncompetitive" as far as I was concerned. You shouldn't be constantly in a situation where taking a KO would mean that your game is over because your only counter to the best sweeper in the tier is now gone. Beyond that, considering Diglett carried Focus Sash, you were constantly afraid of even attacking with your Clamperl counter (mostly referring to Chinchou at this point).

 

Beyond Chinchou + Ferroseed (which Clamperl could never beat both at once), the only answer to a Shell Smash was Choice Scarfers. Now, that does not sound too bad to just use a Choice Scarfer in your team but the selection of these is very limited and furthermore the current LC is so bulky that 80% of the time those Scarfers would just hit a brick wall.

 

Lastly, I think the key point about Diglett is that it never was a deadweight in your team. When analyzing trappers you need to see how well do they do in the long run and Diglett was phenomenal. Even in the worst imaginable match up, you were able to set up Stealth Rocks and Memento your opponent. If you timed this well at all, it always pressurized your opponent usually far more than the cost of losing 1 Pokemon out of 6. So at best, Diglett removed your only counters to Mienfoo and Clamperl, at worst it was a hell-of-a-scary suicide lead.

 

The tier of LC hasn't got that much better as far as the usage displays it, but even a small improvement is enough for me when we're discussing a Pokemon as uncompetitive as Diglett in LC so to me it should stay banned.

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Diglett has been test banned for now 3 months. What do you guys think of the LC tier? Has there been any improvements?

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On 11/26/2019 at 4:28 PM, Ahpool said:

maybe misdreavus need ban

for what reason?

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I vote for Diglett to remain banned permanently. LC looks like it's in much better place with it gone. Clamperl doesn't seem to be as big of an issue as it used to be and definitely requires more work to set up. There are more counter plays to Mienfoo as well imo thanks to Diglett gone. Overall, I feel LC has never been more popular; I like to think it might be linked to the meta being more attractive with Diglett gone, but not necessarily I suppose.

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On 10/27/2019 at 6:38 AM, gbwead said:

There used to be 28 mons over 4.36%. Now, there are only 27 mons over 4.36%.

Damn, the difference.

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Just now, gbwead said:

that was one month ago

still funny tho.

edit: and somehow I only noticed that now

Edited by pachima

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Last month is same with last month with diglett, very low differences ur team with trubbish not used this month? O dont see sia members used this team this month... I dont see the table has used, and was banned for used more counters for misdre/foo...

If not change more pokes, im prefer diglett lc again.

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Need a decision on this by tomorrow and as of now it seems like theres a lot of uncertainty about if this ban accomplished anything other than dropping clamperl, and if that is a good or bad thing.  Any input from anybody outside of the TC would be great.

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When I was new, I tapped memento and swept with a belly drum linoone. This was not very appreciated. The same level of skill is involved when you tap memento and sweep with a shell smash clamperl, except here, you can trap and kill things that can take a +2 hit too (hi tenta). Keep the ban pls 

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People keep saying that diglet is this uncompetetive mon that sets up for clamperl sweeps and opens up for other sweeps, but i really don't see this in practice. I mean yeah sure it has the potential to be unhealthy similar to what dugtrio or wobbufett does in other tiers. However it's main usage, from what i saw/experienced in the metagame prior to the diglet test, was simply just a reliable suicide rocker. I don't think it needed to be tested in the first place, rather several members of the community labeled it as unhealthy simply because its a trapper. 

 

Another thing (off topic, but somewhat related to diglet) is that I see people overrating clamperl a lot. Yes it's seemingly very powerful with it being able to blatantly ohko pory at +2, but in practice it doesnt go off as much as you'd expect, certainly not as much as you'd expect from an "overpowered sweeper". This is because it has numerous checks. Priority such as fake out mien (yes, clamperl can and should be using protect, but still), mach punch timbur, sucker pawniard, quick attack tailow, and some other niche ones. Fast scarfers also revenge it (18 speed and up) such as elekid, misdreavus, ponyta, and several others. Sturdyjuice mons with endure like mag and onix also check it with relative consistency. Most teams will contain at least one of these anyways, so it's not as reliable a sweeper as some suggest.

 

If we're really looking to do anything to the meta, misdreavus and mienfoo are very clearly the centralizing mons here based on usage. But, honestly the meta is quite fun with lots of room for creativity as it is, imo. 

 

Oh, and ban baton pass. that shit is uncompetivie in theory, like diglet, and uncompetive in practice, unlike diglet. 

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