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Mivadeth

[MATHS] Stone Edge + Rock Slide

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Hello,

 

I have been calculating some data regarding these movements. Here I bring you my conclusions ( also, feel free to correct me )

 

Stone Edge

 

Damage: 100

Accuracy: 80%

Extra: 12.5% crit rate

 

Rock Slide

 

Damage: 75

Accuracy: 90%

Extra: 30% flinch

 

_____________

 

So starting with Stone Edge, let's imagine we use this move 100 times. Over this 100 times, 20 will fail for the accuracy, so we hit 80 times. And over this 80 times, 10 result in a critical ( 12.5% ):

 

70 x dmg + 10 x 2dmg = 7000 + 2000 = 9000 damage total.

 

And now, Rock Slide. Again, we use this move 100 times. Over this 100 times, 10 will fail for the accuracy, so we hit 90 times. And over this 90 times, 27 result in a flinch ( 30% ) that guarantees us to hit again for free, so, double damage, but over this 27, again 3 will fail for the 90% accuracy, and also the resting 24 will result in a 6 times flinching, but only 5 will hit etc... but let's stop at the first flinch:

 

63 x dmg + 24 x 2dmg  = 8325 damage total ( stopping at the first flinch ).

 

So Stone Edge seems to be more powerful, but we can't calculate the damage we AVOID every time we make the enemy flinch. Maybe we hit with SE, the enemy survives and he kills us, but if we hit with rock side and the enemy flinches, we can hit again, we survive and he dies, etc.

 

So for me, Rock Slide is slightly better just for this reason.

 

EDIT1: I jut realized Rock slide can also crit, having a 6.75% chance, so... I'm pretty sure this puts Rock Slide far from Stone edge now.

Edited by Mivadeth

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Back in like 2011 every time someone makes a Stone Edge vs Rock Slide post it always ends with a 'it all comes down to your preference'.

 

I'm sure I can make an argument on how using Stone Edge is better than Rock Slide and vice versa.

Also Smogon sets pretty much prefer Stone Edge over Rock Slide.

Edited by Archiver

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I'm unsure about your maths. I was thinking about a different approach (multiply power x accuracy).

Stone edge has 100 base power and 80 accuracy (100x 0.8)= 80

Rock slide has 75 base power and 90 accuracy (75x 0.9)= 67.5

 

Now I'm not a math expert, but that's 12.5 more base power on average coming from stone edge. Now we can go into comparing the secondary effects of those moves:

30% flinch on Rock Slide

12.5% crit on Stone Edge

 

So if you take into account the crit rate from stone edge which deals +50% damage and ignores the stat changes (that can be really big), Stone Edge deals way more damage on average compared to situational rock slide.

 

You are overestimating the power of flinches and already assuming that you are faster than your opponent; if you fail to KO him with rock slide and flinch him, the retaliation can kill you, when stone edge might've brought you the needed KO.

 

 

Unfortunately, competitive gameplay isn't all about maths. There's also the argument that Rock Slide with it's inferior base power (25 on neutral and 37.5 on super effective hit) misses the chance to OHKO on many different occasions. Rock Slide is highly situational; it can be used on mons like Aerodactyl or DD Tyranitar (lolol) if you wanna go ghaey and fish for flinches and it's far superior in Doubles due to it's aoe (and flinches).

 

Keep also in mind, we have gen7 crit mechanics, meaning that Rock Slide doesn't have 6.75, but ~4.1 crit chance.
 

 

There's a reason why Stone Edge is preferred by most experienced competitive players and why it's the most common choice by them (aside from mons that got sheer force, obviously). Overall, stone edge is just way better.

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2 hours ago, Mivadeth said:

So starting with Stone Edge, let's imagine we use this move 100 times. Over this 100 times, 20 will fail for the accuracy, so we hit 80 times. And over this 80 times, 10 result in a critical ( 12.5% ):

 

70 x dmg + 10 x 2dmg = 7000 + 2000 = 9000 damage total.

 

And now, Rock Slide. Again, we use this move 100 times. Over this 100 times, 10 will fail for the accuracy, so we hit 90 times. And over this 90 times, 27 result in a flinch ( 30% ) that guarantees us to hit again for free, so, double damage, but over this 27, again 3 will fail for the 90% accuracy, and also the resting 24 will result in a 6 times flinching, but only 5 will hit etc... but let's stop at the first flinch:

 

63 x dmg + 24 x 2dmg  = 8325 damage total ( stopping at the first flinch ).

I don't like how this 9000 vs 8325 damage comparison is made without any regards to a situation

 

To put it even more simply than Forfi, I'll throw out a direct comparison a scarf mienshao attacking a bulky volcarona after 1QD, if you don't kill in this example you get swept

 

252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 228-272 (120 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

80% of the time you hit, you lose the game 20% of the time when it misses

 

252 Atk Mienshao Rock Slide vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 172-204 (90.5 - 107.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

90% of the time you hit (meaning 10% you lose by missing), but also an extra risk of not OHKOing in this exact scenario 62.5% of the time (maybe you add 30% flinches but I'm not thinking the outcome comes out well for you)

 

 

 

 

Edited by KOHHuiXIN

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While this will hardly be the deciding factor in what is likely really context based there is merit in mentioning that faster attackers used for revenge killing something have reason to prefer high accuracy moves on paper in order to ensure that when revenge killing they do not miss, but when you are going for OHKO's on something banded / specs'd higher power with a bit less accuracy can be a bit better.

I'm no expert on PvP, I only dabble for fun, but for instance on Zoroark if I am running a Scarf set I will typically run Dark Pulse just so I have the reliability of hitting something, but if I am running the Specs version I'll use Night Daze just for that little bit of extra base power (and the occasional accuracy drop is nice too, but you get what I mean).

Though, I do tend to see people prefer Stone Edge in general to Rock Slide, but it also depends on if what you are targetting in the meta with that move will be OHKO'd by Rock Slide vs. Stone Edge, e.g. if the only reason people used stone moves in the OU meta was Volcarona (it's not but it's a hypothetical) then knowing that Rock Slide OHKO's volcarona means there's not much purpose on sacrificing Accuracy for power anymore because it's overkill.

It's a pretty complicated question, that's for sure.

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19 minutes ago, Matoka said:

While this will hardly be the deciding factor in what is likely really context based there is merit in mentioning that faster attackers used for revenge killing something have reason to prefer high accuracy moves on paper in order to ensure that when revenge killing they do not miss, but when you are going for OHKO's on something banded / specs'd higher power with a bit less accuracy can be a bit better.

I'm no expert on PvP, I only dabble for fun, but for instance on Zoroark if I am running a Scarf set I will typically run Dark Pulse just so I have the reliability of hitting something, but if I am running the Specs version I'll use Night Daze just for that little bit of extra base power (and the occasional accuracy drop is nice too, but you get what I mean).

Though, I do tend to see people prefer Stone Edge in general to Rock Slide, but it also depends on if what you are targetting in the meta with that move will be OHKO'd by Rock Slide vs. Stone Edge, e.g. if the only reason people used stone moves in the OU meta was Volcarona (it's not but it's a hypothetical) then knowing that Rock Slide OHKO's volcarona means there's not much purpose on sacrificing Accuracy for power anymore because it's overkill.

It's a pretty complicated question, that's for sure.

This is wrong on a lot of levels (stone edge v rock slide is absolutely not dark pulse v night daze, its more like flamethrower v fireblast, another debate MMO players frequently get wrong) but I'll just pick one - you're completely overlooking the fact that your move will not always hit your intended target, but chip damage matters on other mons. So for example if you're about to slap a volcarona with your tyranitar and they switch to, say, conkeldurr or something, the difference between rock slide damage and stone edge damage can end up winning or losing you a game later on. 

 

It sort of boils down to personal preference but stone edge is objectively the better option the vast majority of the time

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2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

This is wrong on a lot of levels (stone edge v rock slide is absolutely not dark pulse v night daze, its more like flamethrower v fireblast, another debate MMO players frequently get wrong) but I'll just pick one - you're completely overlooking the fact that your move will not always hit your intended target, but chip damage matters on other mons. So for example if you're about to slap a volcarona with your tyranitar and they switch to, say, conkeldurr or something, the difference between rock slide damage and stone edge damage can end up winning or losing you a game later on. 

 

It sort of boils down to personal preference but stone edge is objectively the better option the vast majority of the time

That much I was aware of, i didn't want to go into too-too much detail about every aspect but you're probably right in that I should have mentioned more things, it was an oversimplified for sure though. The example with Zoroark was just an anecdote that I could personally refer to as I used it far more than Rock Slide vs Stone Edge etc.

I'll just leave the conversation to the meta savvy folks from now on though, I'm probably not needed on this topic

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Thank you for all the answers!

 

To be honest when I did the maths, I was thinking about my USUM Team, where I run a Mega-Aerodactyl, so you all are right when you say Rock Slide may be better for fast sweepers and Stone Edge for not that fast sweepers ( i.e. my Rhyperior runs SE xD )

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mivadeth said:

Thank you for all the answers!

 

To be honest when I did the maths, I was thinking about my USUM Team, where I run a Mega-Aerodactyl, so you all are right when you say Rock Slide may be better for fast sweepers and Stone Edge for not that fast sweepers ( i.e. my Rhyperior runs SE xD )

 

 

That is totally what they are saying bro 

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