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You keep legendaries (let me explain)


NonTween

Question

I like the idea of only being ONE legendary and having to fight for it, and i dont want to change that... Entirely.

 

My idea is to be able for players to capture legendaries that have been confirmed to be an "rare species" Of pokemon such as lugia, moltres zapdos and articuno, or even darkrai (up to debate if there are really more than one darkrai) DFC.gif

 

the player would be forced to use only one legendary in pvp if they were to take a legendary to his team, so you dont spam them like i've seen a lot of people complain about when it comes to legendaries, about the rest of the legendaries such as ho-oh or the regis, it would be the same as with mewtwo and rayquaza

PD: there are actually multiple mewtwos but i think its best to leave mewtwo as it is now

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20 minutes ago, NonTween said:

Me gusta la idea de ser UNO legendario y tener que luchar por ello, y no quiero cambiar eso ... por completo.

 

Mi idea es que los jugadores puedan capturar legendarios que han sido confirmados como una "especie rara" de pokemon como lugia, moltres zapdos y articuno, o incluso darkrai (hasta debatir si realmente hay más de un darkrai)DFC.gif

 

el jugador se vería obligado a usar solo un legendario en pvp si tuviera que llevar a un legendario a su equipo, así que no los envíes como si hubiera visto a mucha gente quejarse de los legendarios, sobre el resto del legendarios como ho-oh o el regis, sería lo mismo que con mewtwo y rayquaza

PD: en realidad hay múltiples mewtwos pero creo que es mejor dejar mewtwo como está ahora

I honestly believe that they should include all the legendary, put them in uber, and make them not interchangeable, in this way they do not affect anyone and we can all capture our own legendary. Capturing a legendary implies a very important challenge, and it is very significant for this saga, I think everyone should have the right to have one for themselves, my opinion.


 


 

Edited by ChicoFlash
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26 minutes ago, ChicoFlash said:

I honestly believe that they should include all the legendary, put them in uber, and make them not interchangeable, in this way they do not affect anyone and we can all capture our own legendary. Capturing a legendary implies a very important challenge, and it is very significant for this saga, I think everyone should have the right to have one for themselves, my opinion.



 



 

Just have all the legendaries but ban them from PVP and tournements. So nothing changes PVP wise but story wise you get a lot more toys to play around with

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3 hours ago, RIchardZheng said:

Just have all the legendaries but ban them from PVP and tournements. So nothing changes PVP wise but story wise you get a lot more toys to play around with

It should be totally the other way around. PvP wise we get a lot more toys to play with and story-wise you are not getting OP mons that you can use singlehandely to destroy entire storyline.

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Hace 8 minutos, RysPicz dijo:

Debería ser totalmente al revés. En cuanto a PvP, obtenemos muchos más juguetes con los que juegan y, en cuanto a la historia, no obtienes mons OP que puedes usar solo para destruir toda la historia.

If you refer to the history of each region, that makes no sense, the legendary ones are usually obtainable after the league, so they are at 
high levels, they could not be used to "destroy history" when we have level limits. All this can be configured to maintain a balance 
and that we can use our legendary without any repercussion, it is just a matter of using the head.

 
 
 

Edited by ChicoFlash
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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

It should be totally the other way around. PvP wise we get a lot more toys to play with and story-wise you are not getting OP mons that you can use singlehandely to destroy entire storyline.

Most of the complains i've seen in the community say that newbs would just spam legendaries, that's why i think only having one on the team is good enough, also i think its only fair to gain acces to the legendaries AFTER completing the main story.

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18 minutes ago, NonTween said:

Most of the complains i've seen in the community say that newbs would just spam legendaries, that's why i think only having one on the team is good enough, also i think its only fair to gain acces to the legendaries AFTER completing the main story.

After beating E4 seems like a fair time to unlock legendaries. As long as they don't flood PVP, then it's OK. Maybe custom tournements will have legendary rules or something

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What we should do is wait for dungeons to get much closer, so we can discuss this more on Comp Alley or wherever we discuss such.

 

But the way I see it:

1. PvP is too predictable as it is. Adding legendaries and perhaps adding Uber tier to Matchmaking wouldn’t be such a bad idea. And it’s not like you’re forced to do Uber if it becomes in Matchmaking. You can play Ubers as much as you can play any other tier.

2. Gym/E4 rematches being easier by allowing all legendaries isn’t exactly a bad thing. And if it’s THAT big of a deal, they could easily implement a reduced rewards system for if you are using certain legendaries.

(Ex: Normal Champion rematch earns you 60k upon victory. If you use certain legendaries, you could earn only 30k instead)

And that could apply to both E4 and Gym rematches. That way it teaches players that while you could technically use certain legendaries and destroy the Gyms/E4 (such as the frowned upon Water Spout Kyogre), it wouldn’t yield as much reward as it would if you used actual strats.

 

But again, we’re currently expecting sinnoh and have a long way to go before dungeons, and the nerfs and “balances” between now and then could essentially change some minds.

 

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2 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

 

Because having the difficulty in PvE scale if you have an uber in your party just like other MMO's have dungeons or enemies scale up to your level doesn't negate everything said in that quote? Honestly now, enough is enough. Every time someone comes up with a solution to one of the issues that are claimed to make it impossible i see someone else against the idea (dev or otherwise) interject with a brand new reason that it wouldn't work, often times being a slightly different version of the reason just debunked.

I'd understand if the reason was 'we just don't want to add ubers', i wouldn't like it, but i'd understand. But this whole pretending that adding anything, ubers or otherwise, would make the game unbalanced when theres nobody forcing anybody working on pokemmo to just shoehorn them in without a proper solution is getting plain silly.

Seriously, If the values pertaining to difficulty are properly encapulated. Add an if statement based on an uber pokemon id being in the party and if it's true apply a multiplier to said values.

Edited by Pizzachu
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46 minutes ago, Pizzachu said:

Because having the difficulty in PvE scale if you have an uber in your party just like other MMO's have dungeons or enemies scale up to your level doesn't negate everything said in that quote? Honestly now, enough is enough. Every time someone comes up with a solution to one of the issues that are claimed to make it impossible i see someone else against the idea (dev or otherwise) interject with a brand new reason that it wouldn't work, often times being a slightly different version of the reason just debunked.

I'd understand if the reason was 'we just don't want to add ubers', i wouldn't like it, but i'd understand. But this whole pretending that adding anything, ubers or otherwise, would make the game unbalanced when theres nobody forcing anybody working on pokemmo to just shoehorn them in without a proper solution is getting plain silly.

Seriously, If the values pertaining to difficulty are properly encapulated. Add an if statement based on an uber pokemon id being in the party and if it's true apply a multiplier to said values.

I think the main problem is that it's a LOT of effort but they aren't sure how to make money off of it.

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Ah, I'm tired of talking about this. The only difference between this game and the official is that here the other players here, nothing more, and that it is much but much easier, it is really silly as they talk about "balance" but they let you see the iv's and inherit them with items xD. And many other things that do not come to the saucepan, the important thing is that the legendary comp officially work and are used and are seen in tournaments, here they invent that they do not, then stick with your invention.

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On 8/24/2019 at 8:57 PM, BoltBlades12 said:

What we should do is wait for dungeons to get much closer, so we can discuss this more on Comp Alley or wherever we discuss such.

 

But the way I see it:

1. PvP is too predictable as it is. Adding legendaries and perhaps adding Uber tier to Matchmaking wouldn’t be such a bad idea. And it’s not like you’re forced to do Uber if it becomes in Matchmaking. You can play Ubers as much as you can play any other tier.

2. Gym/E4 rematches being easier by allowing all legendaries isn’t exactly a bad thing. And if it’s THAT big of a deal, they could easily implement a reduced rewards system for if you are using certain legendaries.

(Ex: Normal Champion rematch earns you 60k upon victory. If you use certain legendaries, you could earn only 30k instead)

And that could apply to both E4 and Gym rematches. That way it teaches players that while you could technically use certain legendaries and destroy the Gyms/E4 (such as the frowned upon Water Spout Kyogre), it wouldn’t yield as much reward as it would if you used actual strats.

 

But again, we’re currently expecting sinnoh and have a long way to go before dungeons, and the nerfs and “balances” between now and then could essentially change some minds.

 

I honestly do not see the need to invent more and more things, this game exists 20 years ago and its validity is because they know how to do things well, I would copy everything possible, but well here they decide to make the game they want, likewise I enjoy it but we will always be several steps below with this attitude.

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6 hours ago, Cacha said:

Ah, I'm tired of talking about this. The only difference between this game and the official is that here the other players here, nothing more, and that it is much but much easier, it is really silly as they talk about "balance" but they let you see the iv's and inherit them with items xD. And many other things that do not come to the saucepan, the important thing is that the legendary comp officially work and are used and are seen in tournaments, here they invent that they do not, then stick with your invention.

Again, PvP here is so predictable that you can win every match with a single team.

Addition of legendaries would throw a little curveball in the meta.

Besides you can't simply not include legendaries.

Edited by BoltBlades12
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On 8/24/2019 at 8:30 PM, Pizzachu said:

Because having the difficulty in PvE scale if you have an uber in your party just like other MMO's have dungeons or enemies scale up to your level doesn't negate everything said in that quote? Honestly now, enough is enough. Every time someone comes up with a solution to one of the issues that are claimed to make it impossible i see someone else against the idea (dev or otherwise) interject with a brand new reason that it wouldn't work, often times being a slightly different version of the reason just debunked.

I'd understand if the reason was 'we just don't want to add ubers', i wouldn't like it, but i'd understand. But this whole pretending that adding anything, ubers or otherwise, would make the game unbalanced when theres nobody forcing anybody working on pokemmo to just shoehorn them in without a proper solution is getting plain silly.

Seriously, If the values pertaining to difficulty are properly encapulated. Add an if statement based on an uber pokemon id being in the party and if it's true apply a multiplier to said values.

The reason is literally, "if this is added it would be instantly banned from OU and we don't want that." While PvP isn't the only endgame the fact is difficulty does scale with each rematch in PvE but even then that's not enough to overcome certain legends. It would become a matter being forced to run a specific team to be profitable because no other team can clear rematches fast enough. That is called Power Creep. They have a solution for the legends that would be considered Uber and if you'd bothered to read instead of getting your diaper in a twist you'd have noticed that the more balanced legends are already planned to be permakeep, but very rare and exclusive to dungeons. The global pvp events for Mewtwo and Rayquaza exist to give them use that they wouldn't otherwise see because they would have been instantly banned from OU.

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3 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

The reason is literally, "if this is added it would be instantly banned from OU and we don't want that." While PvP isn't the only endgame the fact is difficulty does scale with each rematch in PvE but even then that's not enough to overcome certain legends. It would become a matter being forced to run a specific team to be profitable because no other team can clear rematches fast enough. That is called Power Creep. They have a solution for the legends that would be considered Uber and if you'd bothered to read instead of getting your diaper in a twist you'd have noticed that the more balanced legends are already planned to be permakeep, but very rare and exclusive to dungeons. The global pvp events for Mewtwo and Rayquaza exist to give them use that they wouldn't otherwise see because they would have been instantly banned from OU.

1. Nothing wrong with allowing full access of Ubers. Even if that were to mean making an Uber sub-section on Matchmaking. Because aside from legends, there’s plenty of formidable mons that have hit Uber and aren’t legendary, such as Speed Boost Blaziken. Even then, looking at Smogon(which I assume is where they base the tiers off of), plenty of current OU mons would fare quite well in Ubers, and even have Uber sets.

2. Power Creep exists in any game regardless and is something that cannot be permanently dealt with. If Gyms/E4 rematches become easier, it’s not entirely  a bad thing.

3. If Gyms/E4 rematches are THAT important, there’re more effective ways of dealing with the PC than just simply making Uber legends non-perma-keep like M2 and Ray(which currently makes them only useful as Dex entries, and nobody likes that).

Such as potentially adding a system where in certain PvE battles(namely E4/Gyms), you get reduced rewards if you use certain Legendaries in Gyms/E4 while earning normal rewards by going it the current hardcore difficulty. That way, it really teaches players that even though you technically could spam certain Uber legend sets, it is much less profitable doing so.

Ex: I use the frowned upon Water Spout Kyogre to beat Wallace championship; instead of the usual 60k, I get only 30-40k.

4. There’s nothing wrong with allowing E4/Gyms access to Uber legends to counteract the player base getting such. If you recall in games such as Colosseum, XD, B2, W2, US, UM, NPCs have Uber legends on their teams in certain formats/game modes, so it isn’t entirely out of the realm of possibility to allow Gyms/E4 to have Uber legends on their teams to counteract the theoretical PC that allowing perma-keep Uber legends would supposedly make. Considering they’re the only ones with legendaries currently which is pretty unfair.

5. I’ll say it once and I’ll say it again. The fact that there’s 50+ legendaries in existence makes their “legendary” status not so special anymore(as opposed to how it was back when it was only the 3 Birds and Mewtwo) and trying to replicate that special-ness here is a terrible idea that won’t work. What makes them special has NOT been the fact that you can supposedly only get one(even then, I’ve already gone over how multiple exist in the same universe, even if we don’t count Ultra Wormholes), it’s always been the methods to obtain the legendaries; whether it be reaching the end of the maze, fulfilling secret requirements(such as having certain Pokémon on your team); rather than your casual run-in-grass encounters that made them special. Even then, when you finally get a chance to catch them, they’re actually a pretty damn good challenge to catch. Since even 20 timer balls at max turns aren’t guaranteed to catch.

Edited by BoltBlades12
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16 hours ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Again, PvP here is so predictable that you can win every match with a single team.

Addition of legendaries would throw a little curveball in the meta.

Besides you can't simply not include legendaries.

So since you can predict PvP so easily, how many tourneys have you won recently?

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6 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

The reason is literally, "if this is added it would be instantly banned from OU and we don't want that." While PvP isn't the only endgame the fact is difficulty does scale with each rematch in PvE but even then that's not enough to overcome certain legends. It would become a matter being forced to run a specific team to be profitable because no other team can clear rematches fast enough. That is called Power Creep. They have a solution for the legends that would be considered Uber and if you'd bothered to read instead of getting your diaper in a twist you'd have noticed that the more balanced legends are already planned to be permakeep, but very rare and exclusive to dungeons. The global pvp events for Mewtwo and Rayquaza exist to give them use that they wouldn't otherwise see because they would have been instantly banned from OU.

Oh by all means, please, continue to accuse me of not reading when both the quote i was responding to and what i was talking about had nothing to do with PVP. 

 

Again, scaling the difficulty of everything (Think a kind  of ironman mode) when ubers are in your party would likely negate any and everything you just said. If not make it more profitable to not have them in your party if all you're interested in is money running as fast as possible.

at this point i more or less agree with RichardZheng, it's not that they can't balance it. It's that they don't see any money being made from doing so as opposed to other content, which i can at least understand.

Edited by Pizzachu
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On 8/24/2019 at 8:18 PM, RIchardZheng said:

I think the main problem is that it's a LOT of effort but they aren't sure how to make money off of it.

If that’s so, the way I could see it is like this.

They could make certain legendary dungeons donator status only. Meaning you have to have donator status to get Kyogre or Mewtwo.

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1 hour ago, Pizzachu said:

Oh by all means, please, continue to accuse me of not reading when both the quote i was responding to and what i was talking about had nothing to do with PVP. 

 

Again, scaling the difficulty of everything (Think a kind  of ironman mode) when ubers are in your party would likely negate any and everything you just said. If not make it more profitable to not have them in your party if all you're interested in is money running as fast as possible.

at this point i more or less agree with RichardZheng, it's not that they can't balance it. It's that they don't see any money being made from doing so as opposed to other content, which i can at least understand.

Right, I've been around long enough to have a pretty decent understanding of what goes on around here. I've been around long enough to see many discussions on this topic. I have yet to see a single proposal that would properly scale difficulty to overcome the most broken legends in the game. Not one single one. Every single post on the topic is literally, "QQ devs don't want us to have uber legends," when that's literally not the case. It's literally the case of, "We want to put them in game, but we want to include them in a manner in which they will still see PvP use without creating a severe issue of Power Creep in the existing metagame." I don't get what is so difficult to understand about that. It's that they literally do not want Ubers as a tier to exist in PvP at all. If they can't balance a species by removing broken elements of it, they have to find another way to give it use. They also have to worry about the JC Penny Effect, which is balancing fair mechanics with feel good mechanics (see below). Which would feel better, steamrolling NPCs for cash or winning 20 matches in a row while being hunted down by other players on the server? An Ironman mode against NPCs would eventually grow stale because at a certain point the teams start repeating and becoming predictable. You can't exactly shuffle too much in that realm. As it sits, the Gym Leaders and E4 all have multiple teams that rotate for rematches. Each team has been carefully crafted and balanced as best as possible. That's no small amount of work. What you are proposing is essentially taking that, and duplicating it 100s of times over. So let's say, for example, you want a 100 trainer Ironman Mode. You'd need to build at least 3 teams of 3 for each trainer. That means you are working with upwards of 300 different movesets for each trainer. That's not including the different combinations of Pokemon. I'd wager you are willing to put that much effort into designing that kind of system? Now granted not every set is viable, you have to put the time and effort into going through them. That takes months to do considering there 515377520732011331036461129765621272702107522001 different combinations of 3 for a draw of 100 with repeats allowed. Now that number can be reduced by making sure each has a theme, ie Lass/Hiker etc, but you're still having to study trends for teambuilds on those trainer types to ensure each team fits the theme. Let's say you're efficient with this though and you take 2 weeks per trainer, with 100 trainers that's 200 weeks of design or just under 17 months. If you're really awesome you could get that just shy of a year, but the fact is that this is just your base. Next you have to carefully test each build to make sure it is balanced enough to handle even Uber legends, which most likely means including at least 1 Uber legend per trainer. That still takes weeks, sometimes even months. How much time are you willing to invest in designing a system of that scale? Other MMOs can pseudo-balance difficulty by increasing/decreasing spawns at certain milestones for player or based on party size and composition. You can't do that in Pokemon per say. The best they could do is increase aggro range for NPC trainers and average encounter rate on maps. Unless you'd like to see them rip apart the turn based combat in favor of an Action Battle System, which is more commonly used in MMOs.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

Right, I've been around long enough to have a pretty decent understanding of what goes on around here. I've been around long enough to see many discussions on this topic. I have yet to see a single proposal that would properly scale difficulty to overcome the most broken legends in the game. Not one single one. Every single post on the topic is literally, "QQ devs don't want us to have uber legends," when that's literally not the case. It's literally the case of, "We want to put them in game, but we want to include them in a manner in which they will still see PvP use without creating a severe issue of Power Creep in the existing metagame."

Yeah, im going to stop reading there, because while i'm sure you have a point in the context of what you're arguing for. You're still still barking up the wrong tree, and being blatantly condescending while doing so. Again, no part of what i was replying to or what i said had anything to do with player versus player content. Which is besides the fact that you're using long winded (but often valid) explanations that are clearly going to go over the heads of the majority of people who just want the pokemon in the damn game, and then getting pissy when exactly that happens.

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36 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

 

 

Like I said, if it meant we got perma-keep Uber legends, there would be no problem giving significant NPCs Ubers as well. I mean, even in the vanilla games that’s common.

Even if we don’t count N, some NPCs in Colosseum/XD use Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Ho-Oh, and Lugia. Then in B2W2, there’s the world tourney where some modes give Gym Leaders/E4/Champion Uber legends, like Fantina with a Ghost Gem Giratina-O. And of course, Ultra Sun and Moon, all the Team Rainbow Rocket bosses have their respective Uber legends. Maxie with Groudon. Archie with Kyogre. Cyrus with Dialga/Palkia, Ghetsis with Zekrom/Reshiram, Lysandre with Xerneas/Yveltal, and of course, Giovanni with Mewtwo.

Point being, if we got perma-keep Ubers, they could easily alter the Gym/E4 teams to feature Ubers.

I mean, even if it means having to have another update that changes up the Gym/E4 teams:

A) That’s the dev’s job. To alter the teams as more Pokémon become available, which leads to

B) There’s a pretty good chance that once dungeons come out, the Gym teams will be altered again to compensate for the HA mons and legendaries

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27 minutes ago, Pizzachu said:

Yeah, im going to stop reading there, because while i'm sure you have a point in the context of what you're arguing for. You're still still barking up the wrong tree, and being blatantly condescending while doing so. Again, no part of what i was replying to or what i said had anything to do with player versus player content. Which is besides the fact that you're using long winded (but often valid) explanations that are clearly going to go over the heads of the majority of people who just want the pokemon in the damn game, and then getting pissy when exactly that happens.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but I'm also not going to sugarcoat it for you. You don't have to like or agree with what I have to say, but dismissing an argument because you don't like the tone doesn't refute the argument at all.

 

On 8/24/2019 at 8:30 PM, Pizzachu said:

Because having the difficulty in PvE scale if you have an uber in your party just like other MMO's have dungeons or enemies scale up to your level doesn't negate everything said in that quote? Honestly now, enough is enough. Every time someone comes up with a solution to one of the issues that are claimed to make it impossible i see someone else against the idea (dev or otherwise) interject with a brand new reason that it wouldn't work, often times being a slightly different version of the reason just debunked.

That is condescending. To a further point, other MMOs use an Action Battle System rather than a turn based system. In other MMOs you are typically coordinating raid parties and adjusting your build from there. This means the devs can setup fewer variables and have the number and difficulty scale accordingly more easily than dealing with a turn based system in which you have to manage your own team build. You are assuming I have no general knowledge of how other MMOs handle these types of challenges. I've been doing quite of bit of studying into game development and design lately as I am designing games myself and MMOs have principles I can apply to the types of games I am designing.

 

6 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Like I said, if it meant we got perma-keep Uber legends, there would be no problem giving significant NPCs Ubers as well. I mean, even in the vanilla games that’s common.

Even if we don’t count N, some NPCs in Colosseum/XD use Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Ho-Oh, and Lugia. Then in B2W2, there’s the world tourney where some modes give Gym Leaders/E4/Champion Uber legends, like Fantina with a Ghost Gem Giratina-O. And of course, Ultra Sun and Moon, all the Team Rainbow Rocket bosses have their respective Uber legends. Maxie with Groudon. Archie with Kyogre. Cyrus with Dialga/Palkia, Ghetsis with Zekrom/Reshiram, Lysandre with Xerneas/Yveltal, and of course, Giovanni with Mewtwo.

Point being, if we got perma-keep Ubers, they could easily alter the Gym/E4 teams to feature Ubers.

I mean, even if it means having to have another update that changes up the Gym/E4 teams:

A) That’s the dev’s job. To alter the teams as more Pokémon become available, which leads to

B) There’s a pretty good chance that once dungeons come out, the Gym teams will be altered again to compensate for the HA mons and legendaries

So they increase the difficulty of significant NPCs to account for this. Players who don't fully understand get frustrated, either leave or start steamrolling lesser NPCs. If you are going to introduce a mechanic that would require a significant adjustment you can't just partially adjust difficulty and call it good. You have to do it across the board.

 

It's already a given they will, but odds are even greater they will tweak the builds they have already as I'm fairly certain they were designed to be futureproof to allow for less adjustments to be needed when HAs are eventually available. It'd be foolish to think otherwise.

 

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