Umbramol

While not the most versatile threat and being weak to rocks. I personally consider staraptor to be a little bit unbalanced judging by its pure power and the speed tier that is fantastic. Apart from bronzong and rhyperior nothing else checks it from the physical side of things. You don't have to predict with it, you just click its stab and it gets a clean 2hko against everything. Gigalith yes checks it's STABs but since gigalith is used to check multiple special threats, I personally wouldn't want it to be my staraptor switch in. But we can factor it as a check for the sake of the argument. Said checks though have no reliable recovery and the difference with other pokemons in the tier, there is no offensive check for this pokemon. You can easily run it as a scarf and clean up offensive teams with relative ease. The only thing you have to factor when using it is to keep away rocks for its longevity and avoid getting hit by priority moves. So in a battle scenario I always see staraptor getting 1-2 kills at least per game if it isn't used terribly. Regardless of what style you are facing. I don't think that's something healthy for the tier or something that is able to be handled. Because compared to other threats, you barely need to predict if your biggest check takes 1/3 of its HP with a resisted hit. So in my opinion staraptor should be put into BL

Your quote didn't guide me anywhere but yea, I scrolled up and found it.

Crawdaunt should be banned. I've given my thoughts about why on other threads, plus the ones that have spoken in this thread covered most of the reasons why it should be.

Nidoking at the moment is also below cut off. Are we still counting? Since it's 30th of the month, is it gonna drop? Or the sample was taken the day you made that post?

I can't play?? 😞

That's not even close to being true. You can't make an assumption while not being there to see what happens. Also the perception of a person outside will always be different to the ones inside. I personally enjoyed gb hosting both times he did and there wasn't a showdown tier in there. Pachima PSL was a bit more controversial but that wasn't due to showdown ( don't even remember if there was showdown) for me it was the manager choices and the hugely flawed midseason which is something that k9 plans to install again from what I've heard.

What makes salamence test worthy you people ask. And how it differs from haxorus? I guess the people that don't want salamence to drop in UU haven't done much research on the tier nor calculated possible damages. I ll start by saying that the defensive set is nothing noteworthy to put into a discussion for a ban so I won't bother with it. Let's continue with the dragon dance set: dragon dance salamence has a few or maybe more than a few answers in UU. To me, quagsire is one of the most notable checks, unaware lets it be able to check salamence after its boosts. The calcs are pretty simple, you guys can go make them. There is also Vaporeon, mandibuzz, both of them conditionally. Umbreon can take check it pretty nicely aswell, Bronzong I haven't calculated but I'm pretty sure that with gyro ball on its kit and resistance to it's main STAB attacks should aswell be able to stop it. I think i can stop here with checks for DD set. The Pokemons listed have a very nice presence in UU meta already. Special attacker salamence I don't think we need to go very far. The most used special walls in the tier stop it. Those are snorlax and gigalith. What could potentially be an issue and what for me would be the best way to utilize salamence, is the mixed attacker set. Through calcs you will find out that again Umbreon, snorlax, Vaporeon have the ability to stop salamence 1v1 with maybe a little customization on their spreads, that customization being to not run max special defense on snorlax ( I doubt anyone does that) or invest like 30-40 ivs on special defense for Vaporeon to avoid getting 2hkod by draco meteor after stealth rock ( not even counting that Vaporeon max HP max def can protect after the first draco to heal a little bit with leftovers and avoid the 2hko this way. I have also calculated that mandibuzz can become a soft check for mixed set with a little tweaking, jellicent aswell, gligar can absorb draco meteors and pivot out. Those for me would be the most notable. So for me these are plenty of options to handle salamence by itself. One more drawback would be the prediction factor. You can't spam draco that easily when you are against something like bronzong and if u click flamethrower/fire blast it would mean that snorlax will get healed by your attack. I listed the bronzong/snorlax combo because those 2 are a very solid and common defensive core which would make the salamence user think very well of the moves it would click. So while salamence can break these 2 Pokemons with its mixed kit, it would rely on great predictions to do so. I ve seen many people here and in discord arguing salamence with the comparison to haxorus but that just sounds like lazy salt to me. Haxorus is forever BL from before and even now more than ever because it has an attack stat of 157 and also an ability that counters its potential checks. Mold breaker negates levitate(for bronzong), unaware (for quagsire), prankster ( for sableye). There is no comparison between the two. And going back to the mixed salamence spread I would argue to everyone to open the calculator and toy a bit with the Pokemons I presented and their spread to check for themselves if the mixed set has the ability to get stopped. I personally found that snorlax doesn't get 2hkod by a combination of draco and brick break, same goes for Umbreon and gigalith and all 3 Pokemons have the ability to cripple or heavily damage salamence. To sum it up, in a UU tier that is already centralized to a certain pokemon and that is stall favoured AGAIN, the presence of a potential versatile attacker should be something people should look forward to so the tier gets a bit balanced out or generally more fun to play. So in my opinion, YES! test it. YES! we should allow it to drop.

I agree with the yanmega part, but yanmega is not the problematic pokemon here imo. It's a combination of crobat leaving the tier and crawdaunt being able to abuse it's checks. What I don't agree with is the feraligatr part. Before the hidden abilities I would say that feraligatr is problematic, but now, feraligatr doesn't restrict you to run very certain stuff as crawdaunt does. With the recent changes, except poliwrath and toxicroak the tier got more Pokemons that can deal with feraligatr. Those are quagsire and sableye on first glance. The dark type on crawdaunt and adaptability make it to not rely on setting up, not be able to get prankstered and gives it another strong STAB that is able to hit stuff like Vaporeon and gastrodon, which are Pokemons that conditionally could be able to handle feraligatr. Therefore I believe that feraligatr isn't problematic by itself and wouldn't disrupt the meta by being overcentralizing.

Crawdaunt restricts the tier and forces players to run toxicroak or poliwrath every match. Players are forced to run similar cores to deal with specific threats or walls. I see a lot of teambuilds lacking diversity or have glaring weaknesses to certain stuff. The dominance of waters defensively and offensively opens up rotoms as a result, especially rotom-mow which in the current meta seems very strong. Rotom-heat remains a staple. I believe crawdaunt, except being strong and carrying a very strong priority move, is also restricting for the tier and if it gets banned the tier will benefit. I am a little bit afraid that it will facilitate the already dominant playstyle of stall/semi stall teams though but we can't be fixing this issue with something objectively overpowered staying in the tier. That's my two cents

Only mmo tiers vote where?

2.9% usage on Nidoking and not even in the discussion. Send the pokemon to UU already. Xatu got it's hidden ability later and it moved.

So you are gonna move some pokemons and some not? that is incredibly inconsistent man. moving crobat up but not moving nidoking down while moving quagsire and sableye but not poliwrath which is above cut off? i dont know what we are gonna achieve with this. wasnt the initial plan to not move stuff during the end of this month? i saw you writing this somewhere. I believe that said mons that you are debating about plus more will show where they belong if you give the players a bigger transition period.

I'm struggling to understand the process a bit. as wallaro says there are other mons below or above the cut off. you are not gonna apply movement changes to all the pokemon? we are gonna move some of them based on usage? if yes, why? just need those stuff clarified

We knew crawdaunt would be overwhelming in UU. For me this tournament doesn't say much tbh because it is an adaptation period and the sample is small. But for me we didn't need the tournament to see that crawdaunt doesn't get walled by pretty much anything straight up. The only way I see it managed is by multiple rocky helmets or heavily offensive teams that don't let it come in. I don't see that as a healthy metagame though. Its only big drawback is that it doesn't come into anything and it's a very easy pokemon to revenge kill but I don't think that this alone justifies keeping it in the tier, because with proper support it will always manage to take 1-2 or maybe 3 mons down before it goes.I believe that we should put it into BL soon. As much as I love offense and offensive mons in general, this thing is too much

well done you contributed greatly

I personally don't get how you reference it as a possible 7% usage while it sits at 2% but ditto isn't that important. It wasn't something that was meta anywhere before and I'm a firm believer that it will drop in the next months, regardless though it's not something that was a staple before and will disrupt the meta moving it. So you can do as u wish. Nidoking on the other hand was one of the first hidden abilities and sits at 1.8% usage. And I personally don't see it spiking rapidly also in a percentage that will justify putting in OU. I consider this decision wrong aswell but as I said before I will give the benefit of the doubt while I completely disagree with it. And I see other people disagreeing too. It is sad though that we don't get the chance to use it in lower tiers and we will have to wait. Cause it's certainly not a BL pokemon. It's just a strong wallbreaker. I can keep going on but it feels like I will be hitting my head into a wall doing this.

Also crobat has already dropped to 4.74 usage in OU from 5% that it was in the previous day. With 4.73 being the cutoff if I remember correctly. "It will for sure go to OU"

Complete waste of time arguing really. I've seen no actual reason other than "it will for sure go up so let's mess with it ourselves and drag it up". And influencing decisions on theories. The players that are supposed to adapt, will adapt at whatever you do with the tiers. But what you guys present is objectively wrong. It's been around a day we are discussing and went nowhere. Pointless for the community to be trying to take part on this as you guys claim you wanted. As tohnr stated above correctly you are trying to tweak stuff that have no reason to be tweaked and are working perfectly fine the way they are and eventually you confuse the tiers yourselves.

yes but its just above the cut off point and we have more than a month to go and many more hidden abilities to be introduced in an OU meta that is unstable af at the moment. why would be discussing to move it ourselves? it makes 0 sense

i see assumptions over crobat rising while its just above the cut off at the moment and we have over a month for the next usage change on the tiers. irrelevant matter and no action needed at all about it. crobat is a UU staple and while it always was a pokemon that can function in OU pretty well it ended up not moving up. with infiltrator there is a bigger possibility yes. but the best action is to wait and see. discussing about moving it is just theories. it belongs to UU for now and let it be there until the community decides to move it up if they want to by using. this matter should end, its unhealthy for tiering

in the case the alternative i was presenting wasnt very clear in the previous message. to sum it up in a few words, is that pokemon that we judge are not BL material for a tier, to not place them above it or even much above it. for example xatu might be meta defining in NU and while not being BL material statwise, its kit might be too much for NU right now and reshape the whole meta there. so yes we could take it away from NU.(same goes for nidoking), and you did that correctly with crawdaunt. though crawdaunt is a question mark for UU while it was placed there because you guys think that it will not be as good in OU. but for UU it might be too much. and we get to test that now. i support that we should give some pokemons, not all, the benefit of the doubt into lower tiers, before placing them immediately 1,2 tiers upwards on the belief that they will for sure rise from usage. because i didnt disagree that xatu will rise to OU, but if that happened naturally, UU would have another magic bouncer in the face of espeon, now it has none. so we intervened with its meta like this.

i get most of the stuff you are saying and this is the reason why i do not speak or voice my opinion in stuff that i might slightly disagree. Nidoking is an example of a pokemon that in my opinion should have never been placed in OU, but i give the benefit of the doubt because it has a strong kit and it might actually be OU or it might have months that it will drop to UU. so there we dont intervene much with the tiering. For xatu's case we have a pokemon that with its ability at best it might skyrocket at 50% usage in NU , get a good usage in UU and enough usage in OU. the big but is that we assume that and while it might be a correct assumption, the moment xatu eventually reached OU, it would mean espeon would most likely fall to UU. if we place xatu in OU based on the assumption, having also espeon there, fucks over the lower tiers because we all know there is no way both will be used there. therefore since espeon reached OU by usage before, we have to let them compete while the lower tiers get to play with said stuff. it makes perfect sense placing xatu in NU or UU and let it be there until the usage changes happen. it wont disrupt the lower tiers. it is not a pokemon that will be too much in any of them. by making this decision we disrupt the metagame in lower tiers and keep them hostage of having the ability to use a magic bouncer that might exist there. if you place xatu in, lets say UU, you give a period for adaptation to players using magic bounce and a better transition for both xatu and espeon, while the meta isnt defined by magic bouncer or not. let alone how we dont kill the motive for lower tier players, including myself, for stuff that are gonna become a staple in said tier. if not xatu, espeon will be. depending on what the OU players decide to use most. i am not saying to let pokemons in general stay where they were, im saying that we should be considering how strong or not they can be in their respective tier. For example say you put Nidoking, a pokemon seeming too much now for NU with its ability, in UU, you can test the pokemon in two tiers at once. if it ends up OU by usage placement later, thats on the players that use them. but since we agree that Nidoking isnt a BL pokemon, there is no reason to not get those data for for the month we have infront of us. same goes to xatu and other stuff that might come or are here. like crawdaunt that has the potential to be a BL pokemon but still got placed in UU. you simultaneously test it AND give it a smoother transition if its supposed to end up in OU. My case is simple. if we keep removing pokemons from tiers that they have a chance of being there while they are not BL material and add too many stuff in OU at once, we risk next months of having multiple drops and therefore fucking over the tiers we were supposedly protecting. while if you place pokemons like xatu and nidoking lower, IF we judge that they are not too much for said tier, you might just lose them in a month but with smoother transitions overall and time for the community to adapt to those changes.

That is the whole reason of usage placements. pokemons go up and down and reshape the meta. people get new pokemons or lose some. by placing a pokemon that has no job in said tier stat wise you take away the chance of it moving naturally, OR MAYBE NOT EVEN MOVING. cause u cant possibly know that. and if that move that you assume will happen came in naturally it would mean that either Xatu or Espeon will go OU and the other would eventually drop. and you disrupted the tiering so much that there will be none of them in the lower tiers for 1 and a half month. if that isnt disrupting the tiers, idk what is. REVOKE THE DECISION and start thinking, you cant place pokemons in tiers just by predicting it will eventually rise there

now thats how you ruin tiering!! the assumption that an untiered pokemon will rise to OU as a reason to place it there is straight up stupid. the pokemon has a niche but its nowhere near that level. and we ve already done that with multiple other pokemons which might not even end up in OU. and we give the reasoning that "yes people are gonna use those" to let those pokemons jump 1-2-3 tiers at once?thats the whole reason of usage placement in this game. to determine what should be where. We give pokemons 0 chance of going up naturally, disrupt the lower tiers in the way we take away new stuff that could be easily used there and give 0 motive or reasons for players to play lower tiers with the addition of HAs. and we force said tier to die AGAIN!! now we got 0 magic bouncers in the lower tiers for 2 months at least for absolutely no reason. idk how these people think and vote but the assumption of "ye i would use it there" doesnt make a pokemon worthy of being placed in that tier! Xatu is a pokemon that belongs to NU stat wise and has a niche that can be used in higher tiers. if said niche makes people wanna spam it in OU its their issue. if that argument stood then we should move up into OU pokemons like golbat aswell. the niche doesnt mean that said pokemon will have 5% usage there. it means that its gonna appear in some teams. reconsider this placement now. you guys are ruining lower tiers for everyone, terrible decisions

1 million on NoRe winning the week. Void if tie @Axelgor