pachima
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Posts posted by pachima
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9 hours ago, ArtOfKilling said:
P2 Bold beats mixed Dnite if it's max hp, whether you tell me it comes on rocks and draco meteor then thats a different case.
92 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 86-101 (44.7 - 52.6%)252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 94-110 (48.9 - 57.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
Since you mentioned infernape then i'll reply to mixed infernape, Unless you are talking about Grass Knot set which then gets completely walled by Chandelure.
CB Ape gets destroyed by Impish Rocky Garchomp
116 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 78-94 (37.6 - 45.4%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryYou have Calm Unaware clef for nasty plot Hydreigon
Milotic,Empoleon for Taunt Hydreigon
AV Mienshao and Tyranitar for Hydreigon Aswell.
1- I am very confused. Why are you claiming Bold p2 counters dnite, but then proceed to share a calc where it proves it does not?
2- CB ape isn't destroyed by Impish Garchomp. In fact, it has a very high chance of just 2hko through it whout chomp ever being able to hit back
3- All of those lose for Superpower Taunt Hydreigon, which is a valid set, except Mienshao, which is irrelevant because it is in the tier for a relatively short time, meaning it didn't exist in a time where Hydreigon still had access to the same wallbreaking capabilities without being deemed uber worthy.
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Adding to what gb said. Having such dramatic difference between the first 2 months and the third makes the system very prone to drop or to rise Pokemon that, for some reason, had an high or low unnatural usage spike in that third month, as well as locking it into the new tier for 3 more months, only to just come back to the tier he was before once again, pretty much rendering any adaptation process the tier has undergone potentially moot.
But the real question is: Why is nothing done about this? Worse. Why is everything being dismissed about this? Suggestions were given, but no effort into looking and discussing at them was done. What is so important about this mess that you absolutely refuse to get it changed?
- DridrigoFK and epicdavenport
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On 5/2/2023 at 10:50 PM, caioxlive13 said:
Unfortunately i need to disagree. Now that tiers are frozen, they can analyze the threats on tiers, without risk of getting bombs on meta again.
They can analyze as much as they want a frozen tier.
But once 20 or so threats drop all at once because how flawed the current system is, every and any analysis they have concluded is ultimately irrelevant because the new tier with all those 20 or so threats is pretty much a complete different tier than the one they have supposedly analyzed.
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8 minutes ago, gbwead said:
I agree with this a lot. The problem is that, historically in this game, testing lasts way longer in OU. It took 8 months to get something done about Garchomp. It took roughly the same amount of time with Serperior. It took even longer to get rid of Snorlax in gen 3.
Sadly yes. I admit I overlooked this quite a bit.
Ideally we would fight against them being so apathic to actually actively change stuff once it has been accepted. Could we do it? Probs not, but I want to at least fight that lazy design.
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Having an higher chance of setting crits is ultimately irrelevant to the Gallade discussion in whether it may or may not be Uber offensive. An increased crit rate has 12.5% odds. If this was any relevant, so would be virtually every rng move, and we would be calling every Pokemon that can carry Ice beam Uber offensive because it has a 10% freeze, which is objectively far superior than a 12.5% crit.
Having no counters by itself doesn't mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive either. Just because you are comfortable with 80% of teams being heavy stall that just have to hard switch on whatever comes, neglecting any sort of balance whatsoever, doesn't mean that's how it should be, Also, Gallade isn't the only Pokemon that has no answers.
But if this doesn't necessarily mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive, what does? Nothing in particular, but rather a set of different characteristics the pokemon may possess. How often can it come to pressure things? How safe can it shift momentum, even against walls? How risky is it if you fail a prediction and how often is the user forced to predict right?
Those are the questions you should try to answer if you want to convince anyone else of what is right in your head.
Otherwise, Mixed Dnite would have to be banned. It can't be answered properly. Otherwise, Mixed Garchomp would also have to be banned prior to Gliscor having access to its HA. Why is Gallade any different? Is it just because it is a complete new Pokemon in the tier and you are terrified of at least trying to adapt to it? Is it because it may and it will disrupt the teams you have built so you have to rebuild them and you don't want? Who cares. Adaptation happens, accept it.
Adaptation is important, and that is something that has yet to happen here. I would understand if a thread was made one month from now, but it hasn't even been a week. Why? Because it is Uber offensive? Why? Because if it predicts right it has no answers? Then ban other stuff (And having no answers is even a much more serious issue in lower tiers, but I won't digress). In a game that inherently has a delay in how it adapts to new stuff due to how breeding and building works, in a game that can take several months to actually see visible change to stuff implemented, are you telling me a less than a week old test was enough to tell you whatever?
If you asked me if Gallade sharpness should be implemented I'd say no. But now that it is here and has already exhausted player's resources, it deserves at the very least a testing period. 1 month? 2 months? I don't know. But definitely not less than a week.
Now, to answer my own question. How consistently can Gallade actually be on the field and safely spam their stabs? Not very consistently. It doesn't have many switch-ins in the meta, which means it won't be pressuring often, and most of all, it is absolutely incapable of blindly spamming their stab moves, since both of them are immuned and resisted by lots of Pokemon. Gallade is also forced to predict their stabs so to accomplish anything relevant, and even worse, it is often forced to rely on weaker coverage moves to deal with potential switches. This is not Uber offensive to me, or at least not immediately.
I'm not done yet. I've been reading some "arguments" here and I am trying to understand how in the world is anyone supposed to change their minds by reading them.
- Gallade is faster than most walls - Great. An offensive Pokemon is faster than walls. Superb. Is this our new metric for being uber worthy? Have we reached so low that we no longer want our walls to comfortably deal with any and every threat but we also want our walls to be faster than them? Wtf?
- Gallade has the strongest psychic physical stab - Great. Tyranitar also now has the strongest rock special stab. Please ban it. (Does it sound dumb? Good, cause it should)
- blah blah blah crit blah blah blah - Amazing. Ban every tri attack user. Ban every ice beam user. And don't forget Togekiss. Ban it too.
See what happens when you don't elaburate further in your "arguments"? When you don't explain what is in your mind that makes you believe something is a problem? All of this may sound right in your head, but by not explaining why it does so you can't convince those who do not see it the same way.
But I am not saying Gallade isn't a problem. Actually, I personally think it can be. But why should be my opinion valued higher than a proper test conducted? There is a massive difference between discussing a Pokemon that already was in the tier at full or at least close to full power, in where you can safely say it shouldn't come back, and a brand new Pokemon that has never seen the tier it now is in.
Test it. If it remains a glaring problem after the tier has visibly adapted, then you can properly discuss it.
TLDR; None. Go read it all.
- Ajbramberg, Strodex, DoubleJ and 11 others
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On 4/30/2023 at 4:25 PM, DoubleJ said:
Some calls for Quagsire and Gastrodon to move up just because of hazards. That's silly. Be happy these blobs won't carry Toxic anymore unless they sacrifice their already scarce coverage in EQ/EP, Scald, or Ice Beam.
They'll likely rise by usage anyways and if usage is wicked high, we'll move 'em up before the next season (since we're giving a try to 3 month movements).
This logic foils to itself.
If people replace older moves for the new hazards, then the hazards make it a better Pokemon. Since Quagsire is already a very dominant wall in the tier, it is more than understandable that it should be at least discussed.
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@ArtOfKillingMy bro. You should stop making too much sense. This is the wrong game for it.
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14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:
Sounds like folks in the community would be ok with Salamence being tested in UU then.
? I see quite the opposite
14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:Moxie doesn't seem to be that big an issue.
Moxie never was the issue. Mixed set was, and nothing changed in the tier to stop that one set.
15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:Only counter argument was not having Mamoswine available
Only? How is it the only, and what have you discussed, if you have discussed at all. Transparency please.
15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:but that might lead to increased usage of Vanilluxe, Sneasel, or even Piloswine as quick checks for an offensive variant. Not sure how realistic that is, but could be seen.
If by any chance any of these irrelevant things rise because of Salamence alone, then it goes to show how centralizing this beast is. Plus, Sneasel and Vanilluxe are completely useless in a tier where Empoleon is one of the most common Pokemon used. Lastly, none of those 3 are able to switch against Salamence, no matter what the situation is.
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This can't be real. The tier is completely dominated by Empoleon/shaymin/P2 and Crobat, all of them have been maintaining an absurdly high winrate as well as insane usage. How in the goddamn hell are people complaining about Crawdaunt, a Pokemon that has been rendered so irrelevant with the latest changes that it has 49,71% winrate.
Wow. Just wow. There are plenty of things much more important to discuss and to focus on that Crawdaunt.
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26 minutes ago, Zokuru said:
I don't know what happened back then but I know one thing : " Defensive / Offensive Uber " shouldn't be the primary way a tiering policy should happen.
Obviously some Pokemon cannot be taken down or cannot be stopped and therefore ruin a metagame, but not all banworthy Pokemon are that extrem.
It happens plenty a time that a Pokemon is a the limit of both which I think might be the case for p2. I will try to explain it by giving grades to what a Pokemon can do, and I'll explain the terms before.
Offensive Uber caracteristics will refer to the ability of forcing your opponent to have a selected few specific wall to be able to prevent you from making progress, as well as putting pressure on your opponent (= forcing them to respond to your Pokemon, it's especially good when it's difficult to pivot around it, either because it hits too hard or because it's not really threatened by anything you will send )
Defensive Uber caracteristics will refer to the ability of preventing your opponent from doing meaningfull progress and shutting down lots of offensive Pokemons for basically free without decent counterplay being offered to your opponent.
Now let's use the P2 example for it :
Discharge , Ice Beam, Toxic, Recover.
We all know the crazy p2 defensive abilities to shut down a lot of offensive threats, but it have trouble healing properly due to the recover nerf and the lack of leftovers, it's weak against volturn cores, really hates entry hasards and statuts.
If I had to rate it on 1-10 scale defensively (1 sucking and 10 being top tier, 11 is banworthy) I would probably rate it a good 8 or 9 because those weaknesses are not so hard to compensate but what it brings to a team in preventing your opponents breakers to make progress is insane.
Now offensively, really what comes into it ? More or less nothing, however we have to take into account that it's slow and that statusing threats will often pressure it out of the field, also it might have to click Recover a lot so give you a lot of free turns, obviously those problems aren't so hard to make up for but they prevent it from being unstoppable offensively. Let's say it's also a high 8 or 9 rate.
We have something that's top class in both offensive and defensive capabilities without changing the set, which offensive capabilities will be enabled by the fact that you pair it in a team defensively sound, thus giving it very good defensive options AND the little offense it needs. I think everyone can agree that the Off/Def Uber criterias aren't met to make a ban, however it's obvious that the pokemon is way too good for the tier.
Tiering policy should probably be changed following this situation to represent more accurately what a broken Pokemon really is in a metagame, I think making a third category labelled " really good in both " wouldn't do it either. Tiering policy should label PRECISELY what is banworthy and what's not and not just throw up categories and call it a day because it leads to stupid discussions in which everyone is losing time for nothing.
Beautifully put. Thanks
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11 hours ago, gbwead said:
Let me make it clear for both of you:
This post is extremely wrong and stupid. When a mon is suspected to have OFFENSIVE UBER characteristics, you should look at the walls it breaks.
I promised myself I wouldn't reply to you anymore, but since I was kinda at fault here, I'll have to.
You are right. When a mon is suspected as offensive uber, you should look at the wall it breaks. I am sorry if, in my needless sarcasm, I lost clarity and went to focus on something I didn't want to focus at all. What I meant is that posting random calcs without any context whatsoever tells me nothing. If it did, some other wallbreakers would be offensive uber too. They are not. Why? Maybe because they cannot pressure the field often. Maybe because they cannot shift momentum against those walls it is supposed to beat, in a reliable or consistent way. Or maybe even they require such insane amounts of prediction to work. None of this is immediately proven or disproven by a bunch of calcs.
Do I think Nidoqueen is an issue? Yes.
Do I convince anyone of that with a random carefully picked list of calcs? No.
Calcs are supposed to support any argument. Not to be the argument.
Again, I am sorry, if I went over my head with this particular subject and deviated from what I really wanted to claim.
11 hours ago, gbwead said:With that being said, @pachima, you can't really complain that Wrath is wrong to look at defensive mons as counters to a potential defensive uber pokemon because
1) you did the exact same thing in your previous paragraph when an offensive pokemon was being looked at2) you fucked up royally when you were TC and banned P2 as offensive uber instead of simply defensive uber
You can't cast stones at people when you are showing the worst example of what should not be done. You can't blame new TC members for not understanding our tiering terms correctly when you have set an awful precedent when using them in the past.1- Explained above.
2- This is only true in your head. However, since I unfortunately cannot convince you otherwise, I'll just leave it at that.
Either way, to clarify, and I don't give a damn to whether you choose to believe in it or you don't, I was actually one of the very few people that was against, and explicitely argued so in TC, that in the P2 ban argument, we shouldn't label it as anything, simply because I didn't believe it correctly fit any of the nonsense labels we had at the moment. Was it offensive uber? No. Was it Defensive Uber? Maybe, but not quite, since its main problem wasn't really being able to switch on most things but also pressure and punish to extreme levels Offensive teams. For this reason, if it depended on me, I wouldn't label P2 as anything, and would just create a thread, trying to explain why this mon was too strong for the tier instead.
I will let you take a wild guess to whoever forced us to imprint a label on anything we were voting at the time, for absolutely no reason at all.
And for God sake don't even mention the PZ issue you are apparently so delusional in your created lie you refuse to let go, because I have better things to waste my time on. Thank you.
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Damn. A wallbreaker beats walls. Who would have thought? In other news, water is wet. (Except Volcanion. It's a gas)
What are these calcs supposed to show? That Nidoqueen, a wallbreaker, indeed breaks walls? How does it do against Offense? How easily can it actually shift momentum versus those walls? How easily can it exert pressure on offensive threats?
Maybe Nidoqueen is indeed busted, but these calcs tell me absolutely nothing except that a wallbreak is really able to break walls.
Next. Why are you obliged to follow the usage, at all, when the tiers are a mess, when UU is in such a chaotic place that it lost 10 different Pokemon to NU in the span of 2 months? Why are you dropping anything at all, independently of how busted or not it is? What about let the tiers stabilize even in the slightest before just collapse everything at once, for no reason other than to further kill these lower tiers?
Will you fix it? No, you won't. Otherwise, you'd start now, which is fairly obvious you aren't doing. You keep pushing responsibilities for the next month. It has been almost half an year where NU and UU are at their lowest points ever, only second to when Dugtrio was allowed in NU. Are you expecting to accomplish, by just nuking 5-6 different things at the same time, that by some divine miracle, it fixes the tier?
Even worse than that. Half of these things that are about to potentially drop, please take a closer look at what they are, are all a direct influence to the sudden rise of Toxicroak in UU, mostly due to both Feraligatr and Crawdaunt gaining access to their HA.
Finally, why are people in this game consistently mentioning defensive answers to potentially uber defensive walls? What in hell is this argument? A Pokemon cannot be uber defensive, because it is walled ???????????????????????? Excuse me, what? I don't care what defensive answers deny a defensive threat, not even in the slightest. I care how many offensive Pokemon that defensive thread handles, how many it doesn't, in what circumstances it does and does not. Unfortunately it is not the first time a defensive behemoth that completely centralizes the tier is deemed fine just because other defensive pokemon handle it.
Is Vaporeon indeed uber defensive? I don't know, and after reading your justification, I know the exact jackass nothing, except that another defensive Pokemon handles it??? Justifying a defensive threat by not even speaking about offense is, by itself, laughable in way too many ways. (Oh, and I can't wait for the : B-but Sceptile and Eel handle it. Nice. 2 out of how many?)
Note I am not necessarily against or for some specific decisions. I am against the fact people are unable to actually come up with their decisions, and think it is wiser to just come up with random nonsense facts that have nothing to do with their arguments, just to show they are clueless to whatever they talk about.
Tierings aside. Can we really just ignore usage for the time being and stop murdering NU for no reason other than to feel obliged to follow a policy that has been outdated ever since 1535?
End of rant. Thanks for putting up with my bs.
- BlizzardGG, Matthzinxl, DridrigoFK and 1 other
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Yes. Drop Cloyster-Vaporeon-Gastrodon-Tentacruel at the same month Toxicroak goes to OU.
Because it is inconceivable they will just be used again in UU after that, thus leaving NU in a completely unnecessary chaos for a few months for absolutely no reason other than spending a few minutes discussing the actual Pokemon you are dropping.
Also, why isnt Salamence Gatekeept from UU for the time being. UU is in absolute chaos. Instead of just dropping another huge bomb to the tier, why don't you actually realize what is wrong with it in the first place before proceeding with unnecessary big changes?
Having updates is a terrible excuse for why tiers are how they are right now. Updates are irrelevant, when you have the power to gatekeep whatever you want.
Finally, why the hell are we still using usage system in lower tiers? Even worse, Why are we still using 4,36 marks for those tiers? You have literally dropped 4 Pokemon to NU last month, reshaping the tier that is yet to adapt to it, but we are now looking to drop 6 more, because why not? Because a few months ago NU had stable 13k matches monthly, but apparently that was too good so we better ruin it as well to the point of dropping it to below 10k. Doesn't it strike you as a huge flaw in UU, when for the first time ever UU just dropped 10 different Pokemon to NU in just 2 months? No, of course not. Let's just keep dropping stuff as well as dropping other stuff to UU every month and blame it to the devs that are just adding new stuff to the game, instead of actually taking action and actually make tiers enjoybale for as long as possible. But this isn't a game at all apparently. What matters is we have fun in 2035 when tiers are stabilized.
Jesus hell. Enough is enough. This is the absolute worst lower tiers have ever been ever since ladder update, and yet we have not a single word of what is being done to attempt to fix it. Instead, just drop new stuff and blindly follow the usages, because that is the easiest approach for everything in this game.
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- IGN: Deffonotpachima
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Preferred Tiers: Any
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1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:
expected.
How about shaymin? Like, people claimed that this mon would be broken on UU. It is really broken or not?
First things first. UU is broken. We have 3 Pokemon above 56% winrate. 2 of which above 20% usage. This is unprecedented outside of non-tiers, and should strike as an obvious flaw considering we both are counting mirror matches, dropping down the actual winrate, and that people were complaining PZ was broken when it was nowhere the combination of these 2 numbers.
I still think Shaymin is broken, but the tier is so fragmented in an unbalanced way that is completely nonsense to just discuss multiple things at once, and P2 just needs to go asap first.
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38 minutes ago, RysPicz said:
Please take pory2 back to OU where it belongs, I don't wanna make another long post about how it can switch in on half of the tier and then hit really fukn hard with hax attack/ coverage or w/e, all that has been said about it during previous discussion still applies
You dont like a tier where a mon that has over 25% usage has 57%+ winrate despite this number being dropped down due to mirror matches?
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I disagree. Even after Randoms were implemented, UU had a somewhat nice influx of games in the past. (27k games monthly at some point)
One of the worst NU metas, for instance, had less than 5k games monthly (While dugtrio was in), and after it was banned, thus freeing the whole metagame, games quickly shot up to over twice that amount, to a steady 12-13k per month, which sadly have dropped already because nothing has been done in the tier since then.
It's fairly obvious the problem isn't the rewards or whatsoever, otherwise people wouldn't have played in the past, or wouldn't play OU right now. The problem is that tiers are a mess, and there has been no effort into making them satisfying to play again, which, of course, is reflected in the numbers.
Boosting rewards doesn't solve the actual problem, and is more of a quick-short-term bandaid, that will ultimately result in nothing at all.
While certain people refuse to do anything about it, and opt to go blind about this mess, because of laziness, the problem won't go away.
It has been proved so many times in the past that a more satisfying meta will result in more monthly matches, that I absolutely have no idea why people insist its a reward issue, and I have even less of a clue why other people believe nothing can be done, or nothing should be done.
- Sargeste, Jgaw, IIZapperII and 1 other
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6 minutes ago, Eipott said:
You just took a pory 2 with Download proc and argueing that it denies Offensive Teams completely because you can switch in into it?
First of all it doesn't proc download in every scenario.
If you take this argument the other way around, Pory2 can't switch into a lot of Offensive Mons.
Yanmega can 2HKO P2 with a little bit of chip damage (even rocks are enough with high rolls).Toxicroak straight up OHKos with CC on switch in and 2HKOs with other sets.
Bisharp 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed in revenge.
Cloyster can setup on switch in and survive with sash and Band cloyster can 2HKO P2 on switch. (Even with Jolly)
252 Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 95-120 (49.4 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKOCrawdaunt 2HKOs with every move but aqua jet on switch in.
Blastoise 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed after first attack (I mean obviously it will get para, but thats not the point).
The Nido and Machamp Calcs are pretty obvious on this one.
Of Course Pory2 can cause trouble for offensive Mons if it gets the Download Boost, but it cant recover in the attacking turn which means that it gets chipped by many offensive mons and forced out afterwards.That's not how it works.
Porygon2 can usually afford being on the field on stall teams because stall teams are, by definition, meant to keep switching. This means that eventually p2 will be on field. What happens when P2 is on the field? Offense is forced to lose a mon.
What happens next?
Stall will just keep switching over and over again until P2 is on the field again.
Is this valid the other way around? No. Because offense isnt meant to keep switching. It is meant to keep exerting pressure. Offense is meant to keep shifting momentum. Usually, against stall, this is very possible, since most Pokemon there are very passive, thus balancing the two styles. However, P2 just ignores all this and says: No, you won't have momentum, and you will lose a Pokemon. It doesn't matter if you can then revenge kill me because my team is meant to switch into whatever you send again, and yours is not.
TLDR; Shifting momentum offensively is the only way Offense can deal with more defensive playstyles, and P2 completely denies them of all that.
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24 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:
I might be wrong but didn't Porygon2 get banned because it (Modest set) had very few switches (vs offensive/balanced teams) and forced out a lot of stuff? What changed since then?
Let's see some examples of what a Full HP Modest Pory2 can do in the current meta:
Machamp: Comes in twice, only forces Pory2 and has to predict Spiritomb switch
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Machamp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 59-70 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Nidoking: Loses the 1v1
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 182-216 (116.6 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blastoise: Loses the 1v1
252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 106-126 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 84-100 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKOCrawdaunt: Loses the 1v1
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 156-184 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 208-246 (149.6 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 156-184 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Venomoth: Might win the 1v1 if Sleep Powder doesn't miss and/or doesn't get statused from Tri Attack (Maybe Sub/Disable has a good chance too?)
252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 82-97 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 55-66 (37.9 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 42-49 (28.9 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
Feraligatr: Loses the 1v1
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 79-95 (41.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 152-180 (94.4 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 170-202 (105.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pory2 can even potentially check/Revenge Kill a +2 Feraligatr...without any Def investment
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (83.3 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cloyster: Loses the 1v1, even if setup with Sash
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 140-170 (72.9 - 88.5%) -- approx. 2HKO
Medicham: wins the 1v1, but can't switch in and same case as Machamp, Spiritomb exists
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Medicham: 121-144 (89.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 200-236 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Trick with Ring Target could mess up Pory2+Spiritomb though if unexpected.
Bisharp: Loses the 1v1
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 57-67 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 111-132 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 168-198 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 85-101 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yanmega: Loses the 1v1
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 76-90 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 202-238 (125.4 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 151-178 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Also beats Flygon, Ambipom, Krookodile, etc. no need to post more calcs imo.
Defensive answers:
Snorlax, Umbreon, Dusclops, Gastrodon, Bronzong, Gigalith. Most of these only seen on stall/semi-stall builds. Bronzong and maybe Gigalith on balance builds.
My stance on it:
Porygon2 against Offense/Balance is still the same annoying threat as before. Either it forces something out with powerful attacks that can RNG, or forces a 1v1 trade. Stall teams could care less about it since it can't break them and gets fucked by Toxic. I don't believe it would be a good idea to drop it to UU.
I agree with everything.
Just one thing. P2 is naturally faster than Machamp, which means AV machamp cannot be either 252 atk or 252 HP. Also AV machamp cannot outright OHKO P2, which means realistically Machamp will only come once.
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Because pachirisu is the best mon.
IGN: Deffonotpachima
Title: The legend of the One
SpoilerEveryone knew that Pachirisus were slaves.
Everyone, of course, except themselves.
Yes, Pachirisus believed they were free. Every day they went to charge their furs and to fuel Floaroma’s town windmills. Every night they returned, exhausted, tilting a red bar above their body, convinced of their good deeds, and that in the end, hopefully soon, they would see their actions justified and their efforts deserved.
In their mind, they would be remembered.
But, of course, in their mind nothing but delusion dwelled. Nothing but an amalgam of lies and half-truths. Nothing but an empty void of everlasting hope that, to everyone else, had no reason to be.
For everyone knows that Pachirisus are slaves.
Legends of the old speak of the one. Far in the past, no one knows exactly when, before humans invaded the cities and before they started to harness energy, there was a pachirisu claimed to navigate to the North, through the river. In there the one hid a token. Those legends mention the ultimate manual for its kind. The TM-Thunderbolt.
It was because Pachima realized, moments earlier, that Thunderbolt were very expensive in the GTL, that he decided to follow the legend and to seek a Thunderbolt
for himself, for free.
However, before doing so, Pachima decided to explore the site. As he wondered while navigating the Pokemap, first he considered inspecting the windmills that spun soothingly in the East, and then he would travel North, through the river, to reach for Thunderbolt.
Unfortunately, and he sighed upon the burden of his realization, he had forgotten to stock up with repels, and thus a wild Pokemon jumped on him.
But then, as he saw the little squirrel struggling to run, in fear, he changed his mind. Because it was now a blessing that he forgot to repel. Because that was a cute Pokemon and he had to catch it.
Something felt odd, though, and although he didn’t know at first what it could have been, there was an ever so growing suspicion that, for some reason, insisted in telling him that the Pachirisu wasn’t healthy.
And that was wrong. Wild Pokémon were always healthy. There had never been a report of a damaged Pokémon running in the wild. This was because Pokémon Rangers in the Pokémon world dedicated their lives searching for damaged Pokémon in the wild, bringing them to nearest Pokémon center.
Yet there it was, a sad pale-looking squirrel. There it was, some shivering curled up sphere of fur that, without surprise, wasn’t even able to fight back against the Pokéball that he threw at it.
After having cured the newest member of his team, Pachima started talking with it.
Timid at first, but braver later, the squirrel began telling the tale of a long almost forgotten past of the first of his kind. For him there would be no greater pleasure than to retrieve the token of the legend, in order to break free from the shackles of doom that humans had imprinted into him and his peers.
Unfortunately, and now Pachirisu began moaning, no other Pachirisu believed in him. In their mind they were free, and in their mind they would be remembered as the ultimate Sinnoh Heroes. In their mind there would be statues of them replacing the relics of inferior Gods like the Palkia statue in Eterna City.
Sadly he was the only Pachirisu that knew past the cloak of deception. Because he was the descendant of the one. Because he knew the true story about his kind, and as of now, he refused to accept the cruel reality forced into them.
Sceptical at first, the trainer went to the windmills. Yet, much to his surprise, something was quite wrong.
Unaware of it at first, Pachima kept inspecting the windmills and, confused, he came to realize the turbines weren’t working as they should.
But they were still working.
Except, and now comprehension dawned on his face, there was no wind.
Then Pachima entered in the Sinnoh Power Plant.
In there, machines wiggled around as they apparently pumped out energy to complex engines that, or so people believed, converted energy into electricity that fuels most lights of the region.
But he could feel something was indeed terribly wrong with that place. Something that he chose to remain blind to until then, but could no longer. Something impossible, assuming the machines worked as they should.
And Pachima confirmed by touching them.
The machines were made of plastic built to resemble the real deal, and inside them, small engines mimicked the sound of energy pumping. Inside, there were no wires attached whatsoever.
Pachima stepped back to contemplate, now in horror, the whole facility that was designed to seem what it was indeed not. A cheap fake of itself.
Wait.
Logic began spouting in his mind as he tried to understand what he had seen.
Wait still…
Because it simply couldn’t be.
Wait again.
Pachima looked down at Pachirisu, who began running in a specific direction, seemingly telling him to join him.
But Pachima didn’t move.
Because none of it made sense. Because the machines were indeed made of plastic. Because machines indeed were pumping nothing at all. And because, especially so, he was sure the energy gathered in that Power Plant was real, and that it had to come from somewhere.
Then Pachima followed the little squirrel.
At the back of the Power Plant, he found, in terror, a bunch of pachirisus packed together as they charged themselves into an electrical chain, to power a hidden machine below them.
Precisely then, all those pachirisus, although exhausted, stopped moving to laugh all the way upon the Pachirisu that was following Pachima. As they laughed they discussed within themselves and, laughing even more, they pointed with malice at the lonely Pachirisu.
Exploding into anger, Pachirisu lunged at them to tell them what really was happening. However, as every other of his kind exacerbated into mockery, the poor squirrel, defeated in his pride, withdrew into safety.
Because everyone knew pachirisus were slaves.
Everyone, of course, except themselves.
Beaten with stupidity, they decided to return to the windmills to properly assess the situation. There Pachima wondered, as he saw the wind slightly picking up, bringing with it a Drifloon couple that floated far away into the sky. And there had to be some way to convince such religious bunch that all they have been doing for generations was a lie.
But they truly believed, or wanted to believe, that one day people would indeed remember them as the ultimate saviors of Sinnoh.
Because someone, in the past, convinced them of it.
If that was true, and it had to be true for it to make any sense, then that someone must be controlling all that energy for themselves. To do so they showed Power Plant as a beautiful façade, while the poor things exhausted their souls off every day, to fuel, fully unaware, the ultimate greed of men.
Team Galactic.
A ruthless organization that sought to take the entire universe for themselves. Obsessed by the tales of time and space they grabbed any opportunity to harness the energy needed to control the two deities.
Palkia and Dialga.
And to do so, they had been gathering half of the energy pachirisus charged for years, sharing the other half through the entire region, therefore completing the façade, hiding the ultimate crime in plain sight, in complete disregard for the little things.
The reality seemed to warm upside down to him. Because, although it was now quite apparent, it was still hard to accept the result of deception and the inevitable outcome of greed. For he was once convinced the Power Plant was built first, therefore gathering electric Pokémon into the grasses nearby, but he came to realize it was the opposite; That Floaroma, in fact, was the natural habitat of electric Pokémon, and team Galactic took advantage from it by promising empty hopes, eventually converting the Pachi-tribe into several hordes of oblivious slaves.
As the trainer kept wondering, Pachirisu suddenly stared into the horizon. In his eyes there was resolve, and albeit there was the contrast of fear in the shivering of his tail, the cute little squirrel held his position and refused to waver.
For there was a way. A way to stop it all, and as he dawned into realization, he understood fate. Turning to his trainer, Pachirisu now comprehended that they were meant to meet, and that they were meant to expose the truth.
For they both sought to get Thunderbolt.
Avoiding the tall patches of grass, they went West, only to twist into North after the trees, from where Pachima blew a blue ocarina, surfing into the river.
Once he did, he imagined what would happen if Pachirisus were free and if they stopped pumping energy through the entire region.
The foundations of the world itself would most likely collapse upon the lack of energy.
GTL would cease to function.
Players would be unable to log.
Then the sky darkened and they saw another Drifloon carried away by the ever so picking up wind. In the past, and this reminded him of his history classes in the Pokémon School, Drifloon would be seen carrying oblivious children, disappearing then into nothingness, to not come back ever again. Luckily, after some incidents, rules were enforced, and today, Drifloons were up to no mischief anymore. Sometimes they could be seen playing around with children, but there wasn’t a report of a missing one for a few years by now.
The wind now stirred on their faces. As he covered his face, Pachima understood that fate worked in mysterious ways. It was because Floaroma Valley was so close to a side of Mt.Coronet, that the winds were trapped against the obstacle, flowing then around, often wildly, within the valley.
This meant real windmills could also function properly. This meant Pachirisus could be indeed proud for having sustained a world by themselves for so long, and it meant they could finally be freed.
Reminded again of his own foolishness by not activating any Repel, a wild Shellos appeared. Unfortunately for them, Pachirisu was eagerly motivated now and ended up fainting him in a single strike of a Discharge.
Then came a Wingull.
And finally another Wingull, that fainted as well.
There was a Pokéball near a windmill, and Pachima got an Electirizer. Then, after surfing again to reach the other batch of land through the North, there it was, glowing ever so beautifully, inside a carefully placed Pokéball. There it was the ultimate token the One hid in the past.
A TM-Thunderbolt.
There were tears, then there were cries.
There were jumps and Pachirisu ran around his trainer ever so effusively happy.
And then they returned to the Power Plant.
It is unfortunately not possible for me to accurately express what happened next. I don’t think words can, or ever will be able to. Either way, I can tell that Pachirisu rushed into speed through the facility, and reached towards the final machine. In there, he showed the TM-Thunderbolt, and in there, speechless, every other of his kind watched in disbelief as the legends of the old came back to them once again.
Some argued that it was fake.
Others cried in despair, only now realizing what they have been doing for so long.
A few sobbed uncontrollably and joined the trainer.
But after learning Thunderbolt, only one leaded them all into a brighter future. Only one, because only he was enough, convinced every other squirrel of the truth. The harsh, raw, and cruel truth.
Tonight everyone would return, not as exhausted, sharing a yellow HP bar over their bodies.
And tomorrow they would be free.
Because now Pachirisus knew they were free.
And as they all disappeared into the corner of the wall in the horizon, Pachima watched them, before turning to the machines again. For him, the future darkened once more, and the inevitable result of an action dawned into his comprehension.
Because he was not done yet.
Because Team Galactic would now reach for him.
Because…
But that’s a story for another time.
Words: 2026
Thanks for the world raise from other events.
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Actual TC chat for NU:
- Hum, NU is actually nice to play right now. Maybe a little too nice.
- Agreed. What should we do?
- Destroy it.
- Cool. how?
- Let's see. Sharpedo and Scraty surely won't be an issue.
- Great. Anything else?
- Eh. Golbat was only top 3 mons last time it was in the tier. It won't change much.
- Perfect. Are we done?
- Nah. Slowbro was also a predominant pokemon in that tier. No reason not to add it.
- So are we adding 2 pokemon that can potentiallly shape the meta around them as well as adding 2 potentially uber-offensive pokemons. Superb!!!
- Kudos!!
- Amazing.
- 10/10
- But. What if, in the absolute minimal chance, the tier breaks?. How do we know what is creating unwanted ripples, since we are just adding 4 dominant Pokemon at once?
- ??
- What do you mean tier breaks?
- Nah, Won't happen.
-True.
-Also, if it does. It's not an issue at all. Tier was dead for years. It won't hurt them if its dead for a few more months.
-Agreed. Besides, Golbat might actually rise again because of Shaymin in UU.
-Haha yeah. See? No need to worry. We thought of everything.
-And then once shaymin can potentially rise again, Golbat drops again.
- Yeah, but by then its 2025. It's fine.
- DridrigoFK, smadagos, YsgramorOAnao and 3 others
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[OU Discussion] Gallade
in Competition Archive
Posted · Edited by pachima
I am honestly not against the idea of winrate being an important factor, but I absolutely despise how it has been used for years when it is convenient, and outright ignored when it is not.
Not too long ago, P-z was banned because it shared higher than acceptable usage and winrates (Amongst other things). I don't disagree with the argument, but turns out shaymin has consistently seen better usage and winrates (And arguable the most insane numbers we had ever seen recently), and no one bats an eye.
Rotom-wash had maintained better statistics than Gallade in a tier where it was arguably broken (Before Amoonguss had access to regen), however, those were deemed irrelevant for some reason.
For the past few months Amoonguss had insane winrates coupled with abover average usages, both better than Gallade's, but it was fine.
So, is Gallade broken? I don't know. But if we want to use winrate as a factor, then we should consistently use it as a factor, regardless of a pokemon, and regardless of how convenient it is. If we do that, then lots of other things are higher in that priority bracket that Gallade is. There are lots of ways to argue how problematic Gallade is, but winrate is not one of them, unless of course we also use it for everything else.
And besides, Rotom has almost twice the usage of Gallade right now. Due to the way our winrate is displayed, skewed by mirror matches, the difference between both's winrates isn't that significant to properly claim Gallade has a true better winrate than Rotom.