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Tier Council
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Posts posted by pachima

  1. Either way, because this is the UU discussion thread, a few notes why I personally believe Empoleon is problematic in the tier:


    - First of all stall teams are vastly dominating the UU meta in unhealthy ways (Crobat has 60.7% usage in all stage 4+ UU battles. Empoleon comes second with 46,4%. Porygon-z is the only offensive Pokemon in the bunch with 30,4% usage and Machamp/Krookodile are the most used offensive Pokemon that come next, sharing the 8th position at 20,5% usage. (The other Pokemon are, in order, Rotom-H (Which is mostly used as a bulky pivot) - Bronzong - Flygon (Mostly used sepcially defensive in these battles) and Spiritomb. 

    - Unlike every other defensive Pokemon in the tier there are almost no offensive pokemon that can effectively switch on Empoleon (And the very few that do are rendered useless to Crobat). This creates an environment where, unlike before, Stallbreakers cannot come and pressure the enemy stall team, except they are forced to eventually come if they want to break said team, risking dying in the process.

    - Again, unlike every other defensive Pokemon in the tier, Empoleon doesn't care much about Taunt. Worse, it can be even used in stall teams to sponge most taunt users in the tier.


    In short, by eliminating, or minimizing, the arguably 2 biggest weaknesses in any stall team, Empoleon has made unbalancedly strong for the tier.

    As a relevant note, the sample used contains 56 stage4+ teams, which I admit is a low sample, but it is currently impossible to spectate further matches. I will, however, keep the numbers updated once a new UU tournament comes.


    Lastly: Why do I consider late rounds usage more accurate than the overall usage? Simply because plenty of not as experienced players that participate in the first rounds dilute the usage with not as relevant team compositions.

  2. 21 hours ago, Quinn010 said:

    will you guys look at pz again if empoleon leave the tier ? 

    Yes. P-Z is currently the only offensive mon being used out of the 7 most common Pokemon used by stage4+ players. Gotta ban it. How dare we have the audacity to have an offensive pokemon share the same spotlight as 6 other wall/supportlike comrades?

  3. 17 hours ago, StrengthPolicy said:

    1- Honestly, Electrode can be a problem everywhere, even in OU there are plenty of dual screen Electrode teams that can mess you up if you're not careful. And in all tiers, there are ways to overcome this. If your team doesn't have anything to stop those kind of shenanigans... well that's on you. 

    2- GB's done a great job of listing various ways to deal with screens in NU. And let's not forget their greatest counter - Defog, a move that's run on 90% of all teams. One move to undo all the progress in the first few turns, given that you don't get taunted yourself, but an opportunity can still be found.

    3- Is Electrode annoying? Very much so. Is it broken? Definitely not. It does give the chance to let some dangerous Pokemon set up more safely, but there are also ways of dealing with set up stats.

    Let me try to analyze it in my perspective. 


    1- Context is needed in every tiering decision, especially when it comes to a potential uber support characteristic:
    In OU, screens are paired with Cloyster/Volcarona/Conkeldurr/Scizor/etc... However, in most cases, all those Pokemon can be handled by already common Pokemon (Dragons/Gyarados for Volcarona - Rotom-W/Scizor/Magnezone for Cloyster - Cofagrigus/Hippowdon for Conkeldurr, etc.)


    In UU screens are paired with Venomoth/ Azumarill/ Scrafty /Blastoise/ Bisharp, etc etc. Again, common Pokemon that handle them already exist in the tier:  (Crobat for Venomoth/Scrafty - Mandibuzz/Vaporeon for Azumarill - Heracross prevents Bisharp/Scrafty from sweeping, etc - Blastoise is probably the trickiest of the bunch, but still is easily phased by Empoleon if it doesnt pack EQ or hazed by Vaporeon or whatever similar)


    In NU things change. The tier is much more offensive and the walls mostly comprise of the same few things. Also, unlike OU and, at some extent, UU, NU's offensive metagame is frailer, with less key resistances, meaning they won't be eating many hits at all (Compare how different it is with OU, where Scizor and dragons can take plenty of hits) 

    Because of this, you are forced to have walls in order to stop set up mons. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. However, how consistently can these walls stop those set up mons? Not much. Feraligatr, for instance, has one very shaky answer in the form of Quagsire, which is by itself abusable. Everything else lies in the bottom pit of usage (Tangrowth - Leafeon) so they are irrelevant. Most Gallade/Drapion's answers rely on being able to pressure them hard enough and quickly, which is no longer the case with screens (EX:  How jolly golbat was used for gallade, or how steelix beats drapion).


    But now you are asking: How is that different from setting screens with already existing stuff like Froslass/Espeon/Serperior?

    Again, context is needed and you should be asking instead: How consistently can the already existing stuff set screens, how can they be played around by the enemy, and how does Electrode sets itself apart from them?


    First electrode is much faster, meaning it no longer has to rely on a few speedtiers to set their screens (It also can taunt more Pokemon)

    Second Electrode has some moves that make their team gain momentum after setting screens - Volt switch /Explosion/Teleport. Froslass and Serperior have not.

    Third, Electrode has a much better defensive typing than all of the others, meaning it can set up screens against more Pokemon.

    Fourth, although this is not very relevant, Electrode has an useful passable ability all others lack - Static- But I won't go deeper into this one.

    Finally, as a bonus point, let's look at the top usage mon: Blaziken (I told you context mattered). How many common fast screen setters can set up against it? None, they are all outsped and ohkoed. Electrode, however, is faster than even scarf blaziken, and can easily set both screens against it, otherwise the chicken is forced out. And, honestly, the difference between being able to set up against the top used mon and being unable to do so, in any tier, is huge.

    In any other words, Electrode is able to set screens against more stuff, which means it makes it easier for others to come into the field next with screens already activated, which also means it is much better at supporting them than whatever we had prior to it. 


    Ofc not all this is set in stone. Under the right circumstances, Scrafty can sweep even against Crobat, but that's not the point. The point is not only that NU is much worse equipped to deal with boosters than other tiers, which already makes the comparison between tiers invalid, but also that Electrode in NU is so much better than anything else that shares its role that comparing them even in the same tier is equally invalid. Does this make Electrode necessarily Uber support? No, but at the very least makes it potentially discussable.


    (Yes, Whimsicott is the best answer against any screen team, but that thing is sitting below 3% usage so don't even try to mention it as any sort of argument, thank you).


  4. I want to kindly point that this thread has two parts. One explaining why the item can be problematic, thus warranting a discussion, which is focused in its interaction with Skill Link, strenghtening its uncompetitive status, and the other explaining why it should not be compared to other rng events, to avoid the inevitable fact that people would then vow to discuss stuff like Togekiss in the same way. This also means that what is stated in part two is not the answer to part 1 and vice versa. 


    Thank you all. 


  5. 5 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

    While I'm not in favour of these items staying, this logic is a bit weird. "Extra beneficial factor" CAN be the primary reason why you would run some moves, like Discharge over Tbolt, Scald over Surf, etc.

    I disagree. If those moves did not damage at all, they would see no usage. People don't use discharge or scald solely to paralyze or to burn. They use them because on top of damaging the added chance overall compensates for the loss of power, or in other words +20% status ailment is worth more in some cases than the 10 extra power.

  6. What is this?


    A thread to discuss King's rock / Razor fang and its presence in the game.


    First, its text reads: "An item to be held by a Pokemon. When the holder inflicts damage, the target may flinch (10%)".

    Second, this chance procs for each successful hit, independently, also it doesn't stack with moves that can already flinch.



    What makes it problematic?


    Stacking with multi-hit moves, mostly with Cloyster's Skill link. This creates an environment where the Pokemon can flinch the enemy ~40% of the time provided it hits first. This not only turns small-chance events into a gamechanging effect that is quite common and cannot be controlled by the players, but also makes it viable (Therefore used) enough in today's metagame to warrant a discussion.





    What makes it different from any other chance-based event in Pokemon?


    These events are comprised of critical hits, misses, flinches, status, rolls, etc, etc. Every single one of these is associated with the primary intent of hitting the enemy, which is not uncompetitive in any form. Take, for example, using Waterfall or Air Slash. These moves wouldn't be used if they could only flinch. Instead, they are used to damage the enemy, and their secondary effect is seen as merely an extra beneficial factor.


    However, the same does not apply to these items. When using them, the user is granted uncontrollable small-chance events, and nothing else. In other words, their primary intent becomes relying on low-chance events that cannot be controlled, thus relying solely on uncompetitive mechanics that can potentially undermine the whole nature of a competitive game.



    Please discuss and, if you are in favor of a ban, include which ban criteria you believe these items fall within, whenever possible.

  7. Because I assume most won't reply to avoid any unwanted discussions, let me try to thoroughly explain why some rng based events are acceptable while others are not, in one word: Control.


    When it comes to Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunder/Focus Blast/... the player who uses those moves has a) the choice of using said moves instead of, let's say, Flametrower/Ice beam/Thunderbolt/... and b) The control, in a battle, to click the better statistical play (They aren't forced to click those moves if they want to avoid the miss, but they can also use these moves if that means the highest statistical favorable outcome). 


    However, Control has to work for both sides. If the enemy wants to avoid, let's say, a scald burn, they can switch to a Poke that doesn't mind the burn much. If they want to avoid a freeze, they can try to avoid having a slower mon than the Ice beam/Etc, etc. 

    Now, what happens, if you use, let's say, double team? First, you have no longer control over your own game, or in other words, you are literally playing to rely in an event you cannot control, by any means. Second, the opponent loses also all control in most possible outcomes. No matter what they do, they are stuck into having to hit the Pokemon that has increased evasiveness, and no matter what they do they cannot control when, and if such will happen. (Disregarding factors that bypass the evasiveness checks because they are all irrelevant).


    Note, please, that this is very different than reducing accuracy (Which, appropriately isn't banned - Moves like Octazooka, Mud Slap are all legal). With reducing accuracy the enemy has control over their field, by switching their Pokemon, for instance.


    Now you ask: Why is control important? Because this is a competitive game, and as such there has to be some degree of competitiveness in both player's moves, in this case the attempt at maximizing their odds at winning. Evasion moves, such as double team, remove this aspect entirely, thus turning Pokemon into a non competitive game, where all but luck is minimized.


    Evasion moves probably have several different interpretation, and this is simply mine. However, there is a reason why said moves are usually banned in most Pokemon environments, even ouside Pokemmo.


    I hope this has enlightened you.

  8. I have no involvement with this event whatsoever, but as a previous manager I'd like to advice, for later seasons, not to rush things as hard as this thing seems to be. It is absolutely impossible, and I repeat, impossible, to do a proper manager work with so little time, for example, how managers had to submit their lineup so quickly after the auction ended. 

    Managers need, or should, be able to take their time to analyze other's teams, to analyze their own teams, to discuss with their own players and to organize their own ideas, thus they need time.

    Again, I have no involvement with this event, but I believe it has enormous potential and I wouldn't want to see it ruined because it was way too rushed.

    Good luck for all participants.

  9. In the pokedex section of the moves, tell us in which region the move can be taught. It is particularly annoying to waste ship fuel, potentially endangering the marine life, like horseas and Pelipers, only to traverse the ocean repeatedly to see where we can teach X move to our Pokemon. 


    This can be done by adding a single letter (referent to the region) in the pokedex section.

    Something like:

    TUTOR (K) - Fake out - ...


    #saveplayerstime #savePelipers


    Thank you.

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