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Tier Council
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Everything posted by pachima

  1. Pc is to be repaired so I have restricted time discussing this thing. (Sorry discord) Anyway, allow me to address the super average Pokemon that singlehandedly pushed most offensive stuff in NU down while pretty much shifting the whole tier to a more defensive and stagnant one, all by itself, or most of it anyway. As a comparison note, before dugtrio dropped, NU was known as a Yolo tier, where there were so many possible threatening matchups that lead to an incredible offensive tier. Now 7 out of the 10 most common pokes are defensive, and the few offensive that survived, or can survive, are either wallbreakers (because the meta shifted defensively) or Pokemon that simply care little about the trio of terror. Note I am not saying thatpre-dugtrio NU was a good tier, cause it was not, but goes to show just how relevant and ever-present in building this Pokemon is, screaming to me, at the very least, terribly centralizing. (For my beloved gbwead, Dugtrio should be problematic in every tier. But, as stated, since NU is generally much less bulky, as well as having less priority, simply makes Dugtrio slightly more problematic here than in the other tiers) Also thank you Madara for your input. Let me explain my point of view regarding it and why I believe it is not right. (No offense, I actually respect you being the only who dared to bring your opinions in the other side of the spectrum) Thank you all for my pep talk about Dugtrio. As I said before this mon is negatively restraining the tier, and usage of the most common Pokemon shows this very well. I'm not sure when I am able to discuss again, so I guess have fun.
  2. I will try to clarify something here. It is not the experience of a player in a battle that makes the games much longer/shorter (Yes, it has some impact, but imo, almost irrelevant). On the same note, winrate also doesn't necessarily correlate to the length of the games. What does correlate is the way teams are built. Let me give you an example. My games are usually around 10 mins, even against stall teams. If I gave my teams to you your games would be short, and since you aren't experienced with them, they could be slightly shorter or longer, but never long because my teams are unable to drag the game without already breaking through the enemy. Nothing changes except a more experienced player has higher success with any team than a less experienced one. By the same logic, I am sure that if I was to use your teams, my games would be long, because those teams, as you claim, are unable to break Stall and there is no amount of skill (Unless one player is a God and the other a potato) that changes this fact. Winrate should show how experience /successful a player is with any given team in a given meta. Game length is ultimately decided not by the skill put into the actual match but in the teambuilding. If you claim your team is unable to get short games, that isn't a YOU problem nor a STALL problem, it is an YOUR TEAM problem, and as such, since you dislike lengthy battles, it only means that team isn't fit for you. If you wish I can give you some teams I use. They take time to get used to it, but you'll soon realize your battles won't and can't be long. You either beat them or get beaten shortly. The only difference is the amount of success I, you or anyone can have with these teams. Hope I could clarify it.
  3. This is Wrong and you should try to listen. 6-Wall team doesn't necessarily drag the game for long. What it does is exhaust the enemy team's resources until they are unable to keep going with momento and therefore crumble. This also mean that while a Wall team against a Wall team will most likely drag, a wall team against an offensive team will not. In this latter case, either the wall team exhausts the offensive team quickly enough and wins, or the offensive team punches through the defensive team quickly enough and wins. As an offensive player, pretty much all all my games are within the 10 min mark, no matter if I face offense or defense. The problem here is not the wall teams. It is you failed to adapt your team to deal with those, and therefore lack an way to punch through the defense system, thus dragging the game. Do not ever forget a Pokemon game is played by 2 players. If your games drag for needlessly long, opposing wall teams are just part of the problem, the other part is your own team. My advice is actually try to learn and gather information, and pick wallbreakers that destroy stall. I have seen players with less than 2 months actually succeed and reach top 100, so there is no reason for you, or anyone else for that matter, to struggle where they did not. As long as you learn how to adapt, I promise you will have a much greater time playing this game. It is not easy, and you will not learn everything in 1 day or 1 week, but with some effort and adaptation anyone can do it.
  4. You bring a valid point about newer players struggling more against more defensive teams. However, just like any game, the competitive meta is, and should be, decided solely by competitive aspects, and not knowing the game isn't one of them. Examples: if I start play Yu-gi-oh and struggle against OTK decks that summon 560 monsters in half a turn, but the top players don't, it is a ME problem and the meta shouldn't, in any case, change because of it. If I start playing League, and my ADC is always rekt by the bulky bruisers with some sort of CC because I cannot successfully poke or engage at a perfect time, that is a newbie problem and shouldn't reflect the meta. I get that it may be annoying for you. It was annoying for me and for many others. But luckily you don't need to be a pro. Most of top 100 nowadays aren't even that good and if they are there, it is because they succeed. All you need to understand, for now, is that some matchups are inherently easy/hard for others. If you struggle with Wall teams, nothing prevents you from picking a taunt Hydreigon or a Banded Darmanitan, or even a mixed Dragonite or a Sheer Force Conkeldurr and destroy them left and right. Now I will try to explain why your logic is flawed with a bit of bias. I am mostly an offensive player. Most of my teams, the moment I build them, are inherently weak to Rain teams, and they make me have to go through outrageously cycles of outplays to even have a chance of winning. Does this make Rain broken? No, this means Rain has a superior matchup against my teams. So what do I have to do? Adapt, and change the team in order to be slightly more resilient to said Rain. In other words, Rain isn't problematic because it shutdowns Hyper offense, the same way full Stall isn't problematic just because it shutdowns specific balanced builds that do not pack an wallbreaker. So, all you need is to adapt. In sum, I believe anyone is entitled to their opinion, even newer guys, but I also believe newer guys should try to learn from what more experienced people say. If successful people claim Walls aren't problematic then most likely they are not and there are plenty of ways to deal with those (skillfully). The problem I see is that some (not all) newer people are just incredibly stubborn and believe Pokemon is a game where everything should work equally, and therefore their teams and their style should equally work against everything. (Trust me I used to be like this), where in reality Pokemon is simply an adapting process, where some styles are inherently weaker than others, and as such anyone, new or old, should and try to use teams that succeed against the given meta. There are also plenty of guides in these forums to check out and learn from. I hope I could send the message I wanted.
  5. Let me share my personal opinions of Dugtrio. First of all, I really love the way Zymogen has explained why this Mon isn't healthy for the tier. (I can even agree it is also not healthy in any tier, but the way it stands in NU currently is just more problematic than in other tiers) For the sake of usage itself, I'll consider the 42 most used Pokemon last month. In other words, anything 4+% usage. Dugtrio has 3 viable trapping sets, although it can do more with a support variant to rock/memento/etc. It has lackluster defenses, but it is equipped with a perfect typing and speed for the optimal job: Trapping, that is able to trap whatever it wants to trap, reliably. List of Pokemon Choice Band Dugtrio traps List of Pokemon Choice Scarf Dugtrio traps List of Pokemon Sash Dugtrio traps For obvious reasons, I will ignore meme sets that further boost its trapping capacity such as Specs Earth Power or Sash hidden power fire to trap the likes of Steelix/Escavalier. In sum, Dugtrio is able to beat almost half of the common tier, while effortlessly trapping more than one third of it. This creates a negative mentality and unhealthy pressure to any of the stated Pokemon, just like Zymogen kindly explained perfectly, while also preventing effective teambuilding, since Dugtrio alone helps any team to get rid of any Weakness they inherently possess. Furthermore, I also believe Dugtrio is overcentralizing, and has shifted the tier negatively. For instance, Houndoom and Drapion were top 5 Pokemon before it dropped, and now they are #14 and #20 respectively. Other trapped Pokemon like Typhlosion, Espeon and Zoroark have also dropped, and less relevantly Manectric. On the other hand, Pokemon that inherently immune to the trap or don't mind it have increased a lot. Finally, allow me to speak to the community. I don't agree with Munya's statistical approach, but I can understand it. Because of this I'd like the community to know that any extra feedback helps us discuss more eventual issues, not only bringing us any new issue we have not considered yet, but also to help us discuss already considered issues with new perspectives. Please add only constructive criticism, because otherwise it will not be considered, for obvious reasons. However, and I'll repeat once again, any explained input and reasoning is considered in our inner discussions, and that is why I'd welcome you, the community, to share more openly any concern you may have regarding eventual issues. TLDR; Voice your opinions. If you believe they are worth discussing, explain why. It may not look like but they are always considered and they vastly help some of us sharing different perspectives regarding any issue we face. Thank you all.
  6. without aero in his teams, that might be possible.
  7. Every third month (aka season change) cutoffs are 4,36%.
  8. IGN: pachima Country: Portugal Prefered tiers: ALL Personal note: WC = Casa de Banho
  9. I am on the fence about Lucario, so I can understand both sides. Haxorus, however, is a) harder to revenge kill due to pure dragon typing and above average physical bulk, and b) Had, in UU, literally 1 answer, in the past, in the form of Mandibuzz, that currently is OU. There are both no answers to Haxorus, and 97 base speed in UU is actually absurd, outspeeding grand majority of the metagame. Whatever the consensus about Lucario is, I will stick to the opinion Haxorus is just much worse and has no place in our UU metagame.
  10. Let's start: https://pokepast.es/95f44076486d484e It's a bulky offense Team around Gastrodon. First off, although the team looks defensive in the first glance, it is supposed to be used as a pressuring team that relies on stacking damage before Mamoswine/Sigilyph can clean it up. Teambuilding process: Gastrodon Gigalith Slowbro Heracross Mamoswine Sigilyph Extra note: evs on Gastro optimize overall bulk, while retaining leftovers numbers. Evs on Sigilyph are so it can invest in both hp/spatk/speed and also make it so Porygon-z boosts the wrong stat.
  11. the issue there is that you actually wanted to touch a Cloyster that so politely asked you not to.
  12. You don't understand the key difference between hax items and everything else. Yes, you don't know if enemy Torkoal is specs, scarf, charcoal, leftovers, mail pr even adamantium orb. It doesn't matter. The player who is using the Torkoal knows what its Torkoal can do, and play skillfully with it, gaining advantage for its surprise factor over the enemy. If you slap a goddamn Quick Claw on Torkoal, not even the enemy, not Gods, and hell not even you can predict when the item is going to trigger, therefore there is no possible skill involved in a play around it, from neither of battlers. In other words, a competitive game becames not competitive at all, because no side is able to use their skill to find the most favorable play. As for Crit items. First, unlike Quick Claw and King's rock whose sole purpose is to force uncontrolled rng, Crit items are used to combo with abilities or high crit moves to have 50 or 100% chance to grant the holder a critical hit. Finally, preparing for Scarf Togekiss is possible, since you are allowed, in the teambuilding process, to slap a mon in your team that beats it, like Special defensive Tyranitar or, to the extreme, Special defensive Dragonite, that cannot flinch. Also, scarf Togekiss is easily scoutable within the match, allowing for the enemy to actually play around it in the most optimized way. Now, how do you prepare for stuff like Quick Claw or King's rock? You don't. How do you scout these items within a battle? You dont, unless of course they trigger, which means a) A competitive game was already skewed by uncompetitive mechanics, and b) The scouting itself requires events that happen by 'luck', meaning you can't even scout the item properly without both sides relying on these unwanted events beforehand. I butchered English but whatever.
  13. Yes, this is the exact problem. MMO community has been fed up with countless answers for every single Pokemon to a point where they don't just want any Pokemon to have counters but also demand so. I know I shouldn't really compare MMO with showdown but this mentality in showdown would lead to 70% of bans in every tier. Walbreaks are designed to have little to no counters, period. No counters is no longer an argument for a ban, ever since ice age. The real problem arises when a no-counter Pokemon is also able to reach the field with relatively ease, as well as being able to pressure other stuff than stall, which I have yet Porygon-z to accomplish. Fun fact: Heracross actually possesses less counters than P-z in NU. The only difference is that its best answer also happens to be one of the most used Pokemon, meaning tools are there just waiting for players to pick them up.
  14. I have a better idea. Turn MMO into a gacha Pokemon game, where only 6* Characters Pokemon can achieve 6x31. Similarly, 5* Pokemon can only possess 5x31, and so on.
  15. Sorry I should have expressed myself better. Indeed chances are higher, but in practice considering p-z actually doesn't have many tri attack blasts in a single game, from what I've been seeing, odds are still low, and although they are more relevant than conk's, they feel to me still pretty unworthy of considering. In other words I don't believe a 20% of a random proc that may or may not actually matter is, to me, a viable argument towards a ban of a Pokemon. What makes this low procrate apparently terrifying is the fact tri attack is super spammable and hurts a lot, however, that's a problem of the damage itself as well as its spammability, and not the rng. As such, I'd prefer if we stayed on the real issue rather than trying to create additional problems that in fact are just an extension of the first one.
  16. This is absolutely misleading. First of all outspeeding 2/3 of the tier makes no sense cause you are mixing offensive with defensive pokemon alike. So that number is pretty irrelevant. Second of all, out of those 12 pokemon, only 5 are unable to ohko Porygon-z, 2 of them having a really high chance to do it after rock damage. (And I'm already removing stuff like band crobat out of equation cause its not simply used) This is honestly the same as saying cofagrigus fails to stop conkeldurr reliably cause ice punch can freeze. Now regarding metashift some people are claiming about: While p-z has some impact on it, I don't think we can forget jellicent just moved up, pretty much unlocking stuff like fighting spam, pressuring vaporeon hard to deal into water types, as well as leading to a rise of dusclops, that for itself allows many other things to rise because they can abuse it. Also UU received 2 pokemon that deal with the previously #1 used Pokemon by a large margin, Rotom-h. Because of this I believe tier would unmistakenly shift hard one way or another, and p-z just added an extra layer of chaos there that we need to wait to see how players will adapt. And finally addressing Porygon-z, It is a wallbreaker so I can't see why having 'Only' 5 answers is a bad thing. It breaks wall, it is its job. A wallbreaker that wouldn't break walls wouldn't be a wallbreaker at all. As some people pointed, Porygon-z is strong vs offense? No, offense is the worst matchup for Porygon-z actually, mostly because what I said in my paragraph. Tldr; Please give it time.
  17. Added rain core. Experienced players with this sort of teams please let me know (dc/message/whispers) if there is anything worth changing.
  18. Please rnggods I havent asked you anything, provide me this beauty.
  19. Let me share my personal input into this controversial topic. First, allow me to separate the mentioned abilities/items into two: 1- Sand Veil /Snow Cloak. 2- King's rock /Quick claw. 1) They require specific conditions in the field to trigger (aka weather). They are also shared information both players possess (since its an ability). Therefore, the miss rate provided by these abilities is not much different than, let's say, a miss from Hydro Pump. In which case, it's up to the players to play in the way they maximize their victory chance. In sum, and in my opinion, I can't say that 1) falls within rng or uncompetitive status, because that would mean stuff like Hydro Pump or Focus Blast would be too. What you can argue, however, is that a 20% fixed dodge rate under said conditions is broken, but that's a bit out of topic. Let's move on. 2) These require no specific conditions in the field to trigger. King's rock relies in outspeeding only, while Quick Claw virtually requires nothing at all. The main problem here is that an opposing player has no way to know whether these items are being used before they actually activate themselves (or via superhypermegaultratopkekuseless gimmicks like frisk). This unfortunately removes all sort of skill put into the match, as there is no realistic way to consider these variables to the most optimal winpath, or in other words, puts the game completely in rng hands, essentially removing the "competitive" aspect of it. tldr; rng mechanics are always super bad. Rng abilitiescan be arguably labelled in the broken status, while rng items, such as King's rock and Quick claw should be labelled under Uncompetitive status and therefore banned/removed/whatever you want to call it.
  20. Thats the thing, pz doesnt singlehandedly lays down stall. Yes, its strong vs it, but in practice, even against stall, p-z is only taking down 1-2 things maximum, before being worn up to death, assuming there is no gigalith.
  21. The Tier Council has re-evaluated the Borderline 1 Pokemon and have decided to drop Porygon-Z and test it in the Underused tier. This will be a suspect test which will occur over an undecided period of time. Through a prolonged discussion and majority vote, we have decided that Haxorus and Lucario will not be tested at this time. Porygon-Z is a natural stallbreaker, which means it specializes in breaking stall. As such, its counters are very limited, and in UU they usually only take the form of Bronzong and, although in a lesser scale, Porygon2, Snorlax and/or Dusclops. Note, however, that Gigalith is able to safely counter any set, only fearing the eventual Trick to Choice Scarf play. Arguably Porygon-Z's biggest advantage is being able to spam stab Tri-Attack, boosted by either Adaptability or Download, and in fact, this move is able to break almost anything in the tier when you consider its secondary ability (to burn, freeze, or paralyze at around a 20% chance). Does this make it broken? Not necessarily, hence why the need to retest it. On the other hand, Porygon-z isn't without flaws. First, it possesses a mediocre speed base stat of 90 that makes it vulnerable to many faster offensive threats in the tier. Second, its pure normal typing hinders Porygon-z defensively, not allowing it to take any resisted type, besides Ghost-immunity. Plus, Porygon-z is also prone to virtually every priority move commonly used, as well as every hazard and status. In other words, Porygon-z has little to no switch-ins and more often than not should only enter the field after something previously fainted or after good prediction, which in and of itself is a gamble. Lastly, Porygon-z is also pressured by Pursuit users, most notably Bisharp, Krookodile, and Metagross, especially a choice set. Overall, we have decided that Porygon-Z is at the very least, worthy of being suspect tested in UU. We cannot safely guarantee it will not be broken after the testing period, but we believe it has a chance of fitting in the tier and possibly even improving upon what has become a tier with little variability. Please discuss.
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