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  1. Baton Pass?

    so I've been looking at this thread since it was posted, and I considered posting a long drawn out response earlier because #fuckbatonpass, but I'm glad I didn't. Listen, buddy, pal, friendo, I don't know how to tell you this, but I have no idea how you actually expect your suggestion to go through. Any semblance of an argument anyone gives is responded with "lol but we don't KNOW that so your argument doesn't matter we should test it xD". Yes, I get it, you think it has to be tested to truly understand if it should be banworthy and blah blah blah etc. With that being said, you do understand that YOU are the one attempting to change the status quo, and therefore, the burden of proof as to why it should be changed is on you. And seeing how "hey it's been a while since baton pass we should test it again" isn't exactly a new, original Matoka© brand idea, that obviously isn't sufficient. So, perhaps instead of just repeatedly insisting and attempting to force what you think on everyone else in complete resistance and ignorance to any argument they're attempting, you should, maybe, I dunno, try and delve into some of the theory people are arguing to try and convince them of your point? So now that we've covered my problem with the way you're trying to push through this suggestion without actually contributing anything of substance to the conversation, let me talk about my problems with the actual suggestion itself. So first of all, the idea of unbanning Baton Pass with B/W because everything will be messed up already anyway, and therefore it's a good time to test it, is terrible. The reasoning would be sound, if Baton Pass was banned for being broken. However, it was not banned for being broken. Yeah, there are broken things you can do with Baton Pass, and one or two of those things might leak into B/W if it's unbanned, and that's something I guess, but Baton Pass was banned for being uncompetitive and the negative effects it had on the metagame. We went from full Baton Pass, to testing a month without it, and then a month with Baton Pass clause (1 BP user per team), and it was (mostly) unanimously agreed that no BP was waaaaay better for everyone involved. The problem is that the easiest way to gauge uncompetitiveness/unhealthiness is to see the difference between a metagame with something, and a metagame without it. If we unban BP at the start of B/W when everything is in chaos, we have literally no good "control" to see the difference between the meta with BP and without it. So, in reality, testing it at the start of B/W because everything is in chaos because it can't cause that much harm is literally, by far, the worst time to test it out. So you might say "okay fine, test it out a bit after B/W comes out and things stabilize a bit, because you know, it'll still be a completely different meta and we can't say it's still banworthy for sure". Yeah, okay, I hear you, but here's my biggest problem with the idea: Fuck Baton Pass. The thing you're closing your ears to and adamantly denying to anyone who attempts to tell you is that BP is really, consistently bad. It's restricted in some non-insignificant way in Gen 3, 5, 6 and 7. In gen 1 Baton Pass didn't exist, and in Gen 2 it has some niche use, but the lack of real abusers and the deeply entrenched, bulky, stally metagame of gen 2 makes it just kind of sucks compared to better offense teams. In gen 4 it isn't really restricted, but there were discussions about it, and tbh I can say with a pretty large degree of certainty if we were in Gen 4, people would probably want it banned/heavily restricted in some way. And of course, Gen 5/6 have you limited to 1 BP user per team, and you can't pass speed boosts, with it being fully banned in Gen 7. What am I trying to say here? Well, it's very simple. Baton Pass is very, ridiculously consistently obnoxious. Fighting against it and with it really detracts a lot from the game, because Baton Pass is special in that it's a strategy, whether it's a full team or just 1 passer, that you can use mostly the same moves/strategy every game, and even if your opponent knows what's coming, they can very easily just lose due to a bad matchup. It's why BP has been getting more attention in more recent gens; The large amount of pokemon and massive powercreep makes team matchup a huge issue, and when we go into BW, losses due to matchup are going to be a bigger problem. Throw in things like BP that feed off of "winning at teambuilder", and you've got a recipe for a genuinely unfun, uncompetitive battle environment. Yeah, if we try BP again, we might be able to squeeze it in with 1 BP per team, or, god forbid, that abomination of a clause they're using for Gen 5/6 and they used in early Sun/Moon before full-on banning the move, but why should we? Yeah, we might save BP, and we'll give Shedinja a tiny bit more viability, but it's just not worth it. The time, effort and resources that would go into attempting this and maybe trying a few different BP Clauses is much better spent doing literally anything else, because, even if we do manage to get in an okay position in the metagame, there's pretty much 0 chance it'll make the game more competitive. It'll just open up another move for people to use on some pokemon sometimes, with so many restrictions it probably won't even be worth using on a majority of the pokemon can learn it. And for what? So we can say it's not "completely" banned? To cater to the 3 people who want to use BP Shedinja in NU? It simply isn't worth it to test something that we know is going to cause some degree of trouble, will have to be restricted to some level, if not completely,and won't really improve the metagame in a period of time that's already going to be chaotic and require a good amount of work to begin with. So, should Baton Pass be tested to see if it's truly still a problem? Well, it's certainly a possibility. But to be entirely honest, I think there's a 0% chance it won't be restricted by a clause or something in some way, it would take a good amount of time and effort, and the start of B/W is by far the worst time to test the idea. And honestly, I don't think it's worth taking that time and effort test. With that being said, whether it is or isn't worth the time, I don't even think that can be properly evaluated until well into B/W. So, with that being said, not only do I disagree with your suggestion, but I think you posted this thread a year or 2 too early. TL;DR: naw homie come back in 2+ years with an actual contribution to the discussion and well into B/W and maybe we can talk about it man
  2. Discussing the upcoming meta.

    this Azu fear is killing me, pls stop. so, Gen 5 is probably the generation I have played the most. Coincidentally, fuck Gen 5, it's the worst gen, weather wars suck. With that being said, by far my favorite archetype in Gen 5 was rain teams. Sand just felt kind of gross to play, and Sun was much of the same, so I stuck with Rain. And logically, past me looked at all the possible pokemon I could use, looked at Azumarill, and thought: "Holy shit, all this attack, STAB Waterfall and Aqua Jet, BOOSTED BY RAIN? This is BROKEN! Why isn't this OU?"; So, I played a shit ton of Azumarill on my rain team, sticking to CB (Belly Drum+Jet wasn't legal, but even if it was, there's no way it'd get anywhere), as it was really the only real way to make it work. So, naturally, let's start out by talking about Azumarill's viability in Gen 5 OU, which as you might imagine, was nonexistent. (See BW OU SPL Usage; Literally 0 Azu, for good reason, despite tons of Politoeds)I mean, it wasn't bad, it could viably hit things and hit them decently hard. However, it suffered from quite a few major flaws: First of all, it was only viable on Rain. This in itself is like 30 different flaws, and it really hampers any viability this thing might have. Without Rain up, it's just a Water type that hits harder than normal, with fucking terrible coverage (Superpower/Ice Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Double-Edge/Return if you want lmao) and a decent priority move. There are a million better options than it. You can't run it as an anti-rain mon to take advantage of opposing rain teams either, because it fucking sucked against Rain teams, and even if it didn't, there are actually good anti-Rain team options available. So, it's only viable on Rain, but that's not too bad, right? I mean, Rain's pretty good. It OHKO's most of the highest usage pokemon in the tier with the right move too, so if it comes in, it can do some real damage. Well, no, it being only viable on Rain is that bad. In gen 5, it's pure Water type, meaning it has literally no defensive synergy with rain teams, greatly compounding their weaknesses. Even it's main coverage options, Water/Ice/Fighting have literally no synergy with the average types you'd find on other rain mons, with Fighting being ridiculously common (especially on lolKeldeo), Ice is a common coverage option available to water types, and Water doesn't even need to be discussed. Typewise and coverage wise, Azumarill is just another assortment of common weaknesses that the rain team has to deal with. And that's terrible. The terrible defensive synergy also compounds another big weakness Azumarill has; It's really, ridiculously susceptible to chip damage. For a slow, kind of bulky mon that comes in, hits something, and is forced out, it has big problems with getting chipped down. It's susceptible to every entry hazard, and in Gen 5, spinning away hazards is a gigantic pain in the ass. Spikes spam and T.Spikes are really obnoxious, and Azumarill gets completely obliterated by it. This also means that not only is Azumarill hard to switch in, but you have to make the few times it does get to come in really count. However, it's coverage options are so bad, that if you pick the wrong move (ie end up Waterfall/Aqua Jetting a Ferrothorn or something), not only have you completely thrown away your momentum, but your Azumarill is only 1 or 2 more switchins away from getting kept as a sac or Aqua Jet threat. Even if you do make the correct prediction, Azumarill is then massive setup bait. Naturally, this is an obvious flaw of a pokemon that is pretty much always CB-Locked, but Azumarill is especially huge setup bait. Also, all of this is ignoring the several pokemon that completely just hard counter and shut Azumarill down (Gastrodon, Jellicent, Rain Stall Tentacruel come to mind, Jellicent especially), so if whatever reason you do struggle with it and just playing around it regularly for some reason, it's not like you don't have options. So, I hope I've established that Azumarill isn't good in Gen 5 OU, like, at all. So, this brings up the question; Would it be good in PokeMMO Gen 5 Discount Toffee Imitation? No, probably not. So, it gains Belly Drum, the legendaries aren't around, weather isn't permanent, and if it's lucky, Defog will remove hazards, so it won't have to fucking implode every time a Ferrothorn gets a little cheeky on the other team. Buuuut, Rain isn't permanent, meaning Swift Swim + Drizzle will be legal, and it still suffers from the problems it had in Gen 5; Notably, without Rain, it hits hard, but nowhere near hard enough to be considered over other hard hitters, it has bad coverage options, all of the pokemon that walled it into oblivion are still available, and it provides pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. And with 5/8 turn rain and Swift Swim allowed, Azumarill would be hard pressed to find a slot on a rain team. The only way it could work as a win condition on a team like that is with Belly Drum, but with the terrible defensive synergy it has, it'd be hard pressed to get a Drum off; Even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be unstoppable. A CB set would be just as bad, the moment you run into a team that has a hard counter to Azu, your hyper-offense Rain team now has a pokemon that is effectively a liability, and can't even really function as a pivot due to it's type not complimenting your other mons. It's too easily walled and too inconsistent, especially when compared to threats like SS Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. So, what about non-Rain teams? Well, it really, really misses the Rain boost, and being pure water type does it no favors. Without the Rain boost, CB Azumarill even gets stalled out by Skarmory, which is just terrible. Yeah, on non-rain teams it at least isn't making the whole "I've got like 4 water types on my team" issue worse, but it's not exactly a great positive. Most non-rain teams are going to want their own bulky waters anyway to deal with Rain, which sucks for Azumarill; Every team is keeping options on hand for dealing with water types like it, both offensively and defensively, meaning that against any decent team, Azumarill is gonna really struggle to get in AND to break through their defensive core. It's resistances really do it no favors; Steel is really uncommon offensively, barring something like Ferrothorn, which Azu would never in a million years want to come in on, Water/Ice are most common from Water types that Azu doesn't want to come in on, since they probably wall it anyway, and if it gets Scald burned it's literally useless, and Fire would only really be seen on Sun teams with Sun up, which can OHKO it with a Solarbeam, outspeed, and even if it Aqua Jets it almost definitely won't OHKO in the sunlight. At the end of the day, hitting hard just isn't enough. Without the Fairy type, Play Rough, and super-Knock Off, Azumarill struggles to consistently come in, it's coverage is so bad that it's very predictable and walled by a good amount of bulky waters, and there's just... other pokemon that can hit hard. CB gets punished hard even if it does manage to get in and hit something, (assuming the enemy has 0 reliable answers) which is unreliable, and Belly Drum has a hard time setting up, and even if it does, it isn't even close to a guaranteed sweep. It won't even have Rain to make it stronger to fall back on, because honestly, I can't imagine Rain teams bothering with Azumarill, they have way better sweepers/hard hitters to choose from. tl;dr pick up a jellicent or something fuck azu isn't very good guys call me when you get fairies
  3. Thunder Wave

    I don't really agree with you. Yes, Twave is absolutely one of the best moves in pokemon history, seeing use in pretty much every gen on many different pokemon you're 100% correct about that. The change to paralysis to only cut speed in half instead of crippling your pokemon's speed to unusable levels was huge, is a shit ton of gens late imo, should have been added forever ago. But the Twave accuracy nerf is just obnoxious. Yeah, you're right, it makes more sense in terms of consistency to have Twave not be 100% accurate when you look at other status moves, but that's only when looking at a surface level. But other than making more sense in terms of consistency, is there really any reason to nerf the accuracy? Yeah, Twave is super good. I don't doubt it's as good in PokeMMO as it is in pretty much every pokemon gen, and the speed loss nerf is super warranted. But nerfing the accuracy really doesn't actually nerf the move itself that much. Yeah, you can miss now, and when you miss it sucks. But are Chanseys really gonna stop running Twave just because 10% of the time it misses now? No, of course not, because 90% of the time it still does the job, and it doesn't have an option anywhere near as good for spreading paralysis. Just like how Toxic missing every so often is incredibly obnoxious and can sometimes even lose a game, but that really isn't a factor in whether or not its' used, because there isn't another move that functions quite like Toxic, you can't substitute it for a more reliable option. It missing is just part of the game. It's not like how you run Thunderbolt over Thunder, because Thunderbolt actually hits, you can't sub Toxic or Twave for "slightly worse in terms of raw power but more accurate". You're just stuck with them. The accuracy nerf on Twave doesn't nerf the move significantly enough to really alter what pokemon its' used on, unless you really, really hate missing I guess. It just adds a small, potentially game changing bit of RNG to a strong move. RNG is part of pokemon, but generally, I'm personally opposed to just throwing in changes that add extra RNG to the game. If I was forced to choose between Twave staying the same, or going fully Gen 7 with the speed cut nerf and the change to 90% acc, I'd choose full Gen 7 every time. But if I could pick and choose, I'd just take the speed nerf. Ideally, that should be significant enough to force people to exercise more judgement on when they should use it, if at all. It adds more skill to the game, by making Twave less generally useful, and by extension lass spammable both in battle and on movesets. Lowering the accuracy doesn't really make Twave use more skillful. Yes, it increases the risk of using it slightly, but it's not going to influence your play to a significant degree, if at all. You just play under the assumption that it'll hit, because almost every time, yeah, it will. And sometimes you're just gonna get screwed by RNG, and it just... won't hit. Yeah, Twave is slightly worse now, and it's more consistent with other status moves, but have you made Twave a more skill intensive and situational move by nerfing the accuracy? Not really. tl;dr: speed nerf is great, accuracy change is really annoying. speed nerf should be added at all costs tho, it's that great, twave has always been gourd tier.
  4. OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

    sorry jj, wobbu scares me, i was getting war flashbacks.
  5. OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

    the reasoning you've given for the initial wobbuffet banning is pretty off the mark. Wobbu was not initially banned because you can't switch out when trapped by another wobb. In fact, when Wobbuffet first came out, Shadow Tag didn't even work, and it got insta-banned by everyone simply because it was banned in Gen 3. Ofc, this was pre-tier council. By the time Shadow Tag did work, I'm pretty sure there were also the Struggle mechanics that made it so Struggle took away 25% of your health, so even then, it wasn't that big an issue, and shortly after that future gen Shadow Tag was added so you COULD switch out in Wobbu v Wobbu. The issue with Wobbuffet causing infinite stalls was pretty much never a concern as to why it was banned. Of course, there's also a reason why for a year + since future-gen Shadow Tag was added, bringing down Wobbuffet was never a serious discussion point. Also, your argument for bringing down Wobbuffet doesn't seem to consider what makes Wobbuffet effective, and by extension, terribly obnoxious. I mean, it is "weak to toxic", but Toxic has been around and used forever. Maybe it's used slightly more now, but it's not like some new addition that massively hits Wobbuffet. In fact, with Snorlax gone, having Chansey as the most used pokemon, a mon that can serve as an effective cleric actually helps Wobbuffet quite a bit. Not to mention that Toxicing Wobbuffet isn't actually that free. It can be pretty obvious when you're gonna toxic a Wobbuffet, and it can be exploited by Encore. While that strategy isn't as potent in this meta, since we lack Baton Pass to really capitalize on a "free turn", you can still, say, get your Guts Hera a free status, AND a super free switchin to punish the enemy. You also say Wobbu finds itself most effective in trapping Choice users, but if anything, that only argues Wobbu is probably better in this meta than he has been before, given the greater variety of Banded pokemon running around. You also say Wobbuffet needs support to be effective, but I don't understand what you mean by that. As a trapper, Wobbuffet is one of the pokemon that flourishes by PROVIDING the support, trapping threats that your team has trouble with and dispatching them easily. Once it gets in on a favorable matchup, that's it. Wobbuffet doesn't need support throughout the match, it just needs to annihilate whatever threat you don't want to deal with. It is the support. I absolutely, without a doubt believe Wobbuffet is super cancer. Not so much Wobbu himself, but Shadow Tag in singles is absurd. When Shadow Tag gets banned in Gen 6, and Mega Gengar almost got banned from Ubers for Shadow Tag, the ability is just silly. The only generation where Shadow Tag Wobbuffet isn't effectively banned is Gen 5, where better matchups make the other trappers (Dugtrio+Gothitelle) more favored, the damage dealt by enemies significantly higher (weather boosted choice attacks hurt, and Wobbu doesn't resist Fire/Water moves), and Encore got a significant nerf to only last 3 turns (although, this change is actually in pokemmo, but I'm not sure it matters as much). Shadow Tag is just too effective. Wobbuffet is incredibly limited and relatively predictable, but it doesn't matter, because it has all the tools it needs to do its' job and the enemy can't switch out once it is in. When we live in a world where Trapinch is almost OU by usage because Arena Trap is that good, Wobbuffet reigns above all. Also, Shed Hull is a really bad argument imo. If you're running Shed Hull on your offensive pokemon instead of a Band or something because of Wobbuffet, the wobbu user has already won. Honestly, you could make a decent argument Wobbuffet is not broken. It doesn't need much more than what it has, but it is still fairly limited, it doesn't have any Baton Pass support for super easy switchins, or teammates that can exploit Encore turns for free setup to pass to major threats. There's also the Encore nerf, which has been implemented forever, and really sucks for Wobbu. It doesn't have the option of Custap that it does in later gens, which lets it Destiny Bond + Encore before it falls. But even in a world where Wobbuffet isn't broken, there's no doubt in my mind that it will remain uncompetitive. Shadow Tag is just that lethal. It doesn't feel good to play against due to the limited counterplay, but is still ridiculously potent for how straightforward it is. Also this: This is kinda absurd, cmon. There's been tons of tier resets, re-tests, etc. etc. before. Actually, Wobbuffet is the only pokemon in all of PokeMMO to never have any time in OU, everything else has had several chances. Saying that retroactive unbans won't happen because people aren't willing to test the only pokemon which has managed to keep a 100% ban uptime in all of PokeMMO is just...wrong.
  6. Indication for couples

    Make sure that when someone declines your proposal, the wedding ring disappears forever and you have to buy another one. Think of all the hundreds of dollars you can make on delusional white knights! Hundreds!
  7. UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

    So I guess for those who are curious, I made that pastebin through mostly memory, and combed through the old council PMs for the general dates/times of when events took place. With Amanu + Thinknice dead, that's probably the most accurate list of bans (especially early ones) you're gonna get. I didn't bother with the lower tiers for several reasons: 1: I honestly barely remember them. 2: The PMs are like, really long. Scouring them for information is kind of a pain, and for the lower tiers, I basically have to to even remember what the bans were. The old discussion threads are also long gone, so there isn't any other way to gather the information. 3: Due to the NU/UU/OU council separation of whenever that happened, the records for the lower tiers I have don't trace that far back anyway. Of course, on top of the gap in information from when I left ~1 year ago and now as well. with that being said, here's some history on lower tiers anyway. Not really sure if this is actually applicable/relevant in this thread at this moment, since most of the bans are so dated they won't be of much benefit, but if people want to create a masterlist of old bans, then this + the pastebin from up there is a good start. This is pretty much everything I could get. I could probably get some more information from post September 2014 if I really tried, but it's pretty liable to being full of holes and it's significantly more work. If anyone wants to use this as a base to add to it for a more complete list, go ahead, because I probably won't.
  8. Gen6 base stat enchancements

    naw, you can still use regular forms in gen 7 along with Alolan forms. The base attack buff is applied to both regular and Alolan dugtrio. In fact, Alolan Dugtrio actually has a different stat spread than regular, as it loses 10 base speed for 10 defense.
  9. Confusion thread

    Anyway, the meta might be slow, but it's not like Swagger just got added to the game, it's been around for literally years, and after all this time, there's only one pokemon just starting to abuse it. (Although, SubSwagger Jolteon has been used as a gimmick every now and then iirc); After all this time, before anyone tries to do anything to adapt to the threat, people want an entire move (and from the looks of things, now 2 in Confuse Ray too) banned under the pretense that they MIGHT be used on more pokemon later maybe? It's not like these are new moves that need to be handled with kid gloves and we need to preemptively deal with or else; They've been around for a ridiculously long time with no real problem. Yeah, I know this is just a discussion thread and it's not like anything is going to happen, but honestly, even having a discussion thread at this point is, imo, waaaaaay too preemptive. But beyond Swagger being around 5ever, yeah, the meta is slow to evolve, but that also means there hasn't been enough time for anyone to even try and adapt to the fact SubSwagger Jolteon is a threat. The metagame taking a long time to evolve goes both ways, and there's definitely been more time for Swagger/Confuse Ray to become prevalent than there has been for people to adapt to deal with them.
  10. Confusion thread

    so I'm seeing a lot of people talk about SwagPlay like it's exactly the same thing as subswagger, and I'm here to say it's not. So, the first thing, SwagPlay is called SwagPlay because half of the strategy is, in fact, Foul Play. Yes, Swagger is what was ultimately banned, but that was only because they determined that keeping it around wasn't really something they cared about, banning Foul Play/Prankster isn't desirable since they're pretty legitimate and commonly used, and they'd rather not throw in a complex ban. However, the reason it was banned wasn't because of Confusion RNG, or just Swagger's increased self-damage to the opponent, but because of the way Swagger attack boosts work with Foul Play. Heavy attackers would often get 2, or even OHKO'd by a boosted Foul Play, and it's not like they can outspeed the Swagger regardless of how fast they are. Even walls can take heavy damage after a few Swaggers, making it exceptionally dangerous. Sure, you can switch out to get rid of the boosts, but they're just slowly whittling down your whole team with Paras and Foul Play damage while staring down a Klefki which is still at half HP, and your opponent has 5 other pokemon. Foul Play being thrown in is the biggest part of what made SwagPlay actually threatening; Without it, sure, it can do a lot of recoil damage to your Charizard-X or Tyranitar, but honestly, at that point there's a lot more you can switch in that doesn't particularly care about a little bit of recoil damage and a para. Foul Play gives the Swagger+Prankster pokemon a tool that can actually damage and pressure the opponent, instead of just passively sitting there while the enemy wastes turns and wins the eventual PP stall. That's also the reason Jolteon is even remotely viable with SubSwagger right now, because it can actually put on some legitimate pressure in addition to using Sub Swagger to do some damage to Snorlax, potentially even scaring it away. Which is also why I find this discussion a bit ridiculous; SubSwagger is only being used because it's very effective against a very common answer (Snorlax) to a very specific threat (Jolteon). If it weren't for Snorlax, it wouldn't be anywhere close to viable. Confusion isn't inherently banworthy, because it is definitely possible to play around/against it; Of course, if you're relying on Snorlax as an answer to Jolteon and then find out it's carrying SubSwagger and you get completely shit on, yeah, it's very easy to feel like it's pure RNG bullshit you can't do anything about. But, honestly, all it says to me is that you shouldn't be relying on Snorlax to answer Jolteon anymore, because it is no longer a reliable answer. What's a SubSwagger Jolteon going to do to a Chansey? A Gardevoir? A whole lot of nothing. SubSwagger Jolteon's shenanigans isn't anywhere near as universally obnoxious as SwagPlay was at fucking with pretty much everything, because there's actually pretty viable pokemon that can completely shut it down. Also, of course, there was more than one pokemon that actually abused SwagPlay when it was banned.
  11. OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

    so since i'm getting namedropped, I guess I'll just drop in then with what I actually think. Yeah, starting it in OU is fine. If we're comparing it to Smogon, I'm pretty sure they do drop new pokemon like that in OU, and then just drop it down if it doesn't meet usage, assuming the pokemon looks even remotely potentially viable. It's either start it out in NU (lol), starting it in UU (I guess??) or starting it in OU. If it's not altogether unlikely it'll meet OU usage, just drop it in OU to start with, if it's not used as much as was expected and drops to UU, just drop it and deal with it then, ez.
  12. Snail.

    1. Show previous comments  4 more
    2. Senile


      Naw guy, let it be both. 1v1 violent drinking, drinking with one hand and fistfighting with the other, les go.

    3. RysPicz


      You just brought awkwardness to a whole new level

    4. Senile


      It's my specialty, of course I did

  13. LC Viability Thread

    Actually, Berry Juice was banned in both 4th/5th gens, since it was inception, and just hasn't been banned in Gen 6. Attacks putting you under 50% really isn't anywhere near as difficult as you're making it sound, especially in LC, and when the reward of literally a full heal is pretty damn good. Although, you are right that life orb is pretty great.
  14. OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

    Maybe scarf Cross will make things like Espeon think twice, but other than that, the whole point of Baton Pass is still the same and it's still pretty broken. I guess you could say trick shuts BP down, but again that gets into the gray area because you in particular have expressed concerns about the competitiveness of Trick. The thing about moves like BP (same goes for Volt Switch, U-Turn, etc.) and pokemon like Dugtrio/Wobbufett is that they're always going to be inherently uncompetitive but that doesn't necessarily make them banworthy. Spikes, Rocks, Priority and Life Orb present pretty big barriers for the BP abuser in Gen IV onwards (also Shaymin - remember that time I Seed Flared you to death in PSL? Lions OP). Honestly, U turn teams were also pretty scary in that meta too, since scarf Flygon and Scizor can almost guarantee chip damage on everything in the tier. But in 6th gen that's not so much the case.. I digress. All I'm saying is that these moves are uncompetitive on a spectrum relative to the tools we have to check them. I don't think we currently have the tools to check them, outside of rampant Trick and maybe Skarmory, so I don't think it's worth our time to test, similar to how it's not worth our time to test Gengar or Tyranitar because they both just got amazing buffs with these new items. Anyway, Baton Pass adds nothing worth keeping to the game, unless we were to get some 4th Pokes I don't see a good reason to even test it simply because of how centralizing it'd be. No, Baton Pass, Wobbuffet, and Dugtrio are most definitely not pokemon that have to stay banned, and just because they were banned before for being uncompetitive doesn't mean they're still banworthy. This is an incredibly important distinction. I honestly don't at all think Wobbuffet is still banworthy, Dugtrio is in the same vein, and honestly you could bring back Baton Pass without too much trouble either. Baton Pass teams weren't even really a problem back when Baton Pass was banned, it was mostly strong passers like Gligar in UU/NU which were huge problems, along with really dumb stuff like Jolteon passing to Dugtrio in OU. With that being said, I don't necessarily advocate unbanning Wobbuffet/Baton Pass. Yes, they're not necessarily still banworthy like they were at the time they were banned, but this has been true for quite a while; we could have tested them ages ago, and we arguably should have to some extent. However, the real reason they're still banned and not even being tested isn't out of some unspoken rule, or some ancient arcane knowledge as to how incredibly uncompetitive they are, the real reason they're still banned is because nobody fucking wants them back. Sure, we could bring down Wobbuffet, but that would require time, energy, and effort over the course of over a month to maybe possibly bring down a pokemon nobody wants back anyway. Even if after all that people agree that he's not banworthy, if we're being perfectly honest here, Wobbuffet will probably just make OU worse, or hardly affect it at all. That's why him and BP are still banned; Not because they're necessarily still banworthy, but because there's a whole process required to bring them down, when nobody wants them back and bringing them down won't make the game better anyway. Although, this mostly applies to Wobbuffet. Bringing back Baton Pass is honestly pretty legitimate, things have changed a lot since it was banned. I don't even understand why you think Baton Pass would be remotely centralizing whatsoever, it wasn't even centralizing when it was banned 2 years ago, except for maybe in UU (and NU, but that was when NU was CM Baton Pass, all banning BP did was turn it into straight up first-to-crit CM wars), to say that it'd be centralizing if it was unbanned now is a massive stretch. As for everything else, I'd favor a full reset. I honestly doubt anyone believes that a full reset will result in a metagame with no banned pokemon and there aren't pokemon who will be quickbanned faster than you can say "m-muh stall", but to be entirely honest, I think it'd be better to just reset, quickban the really obvious bullshit, and then go on from there than it is to argue about what should/shouldn't be brought down for 2 weeks and then ultimately hardly change anything, especially since there shouldn't be much more stuff now that we have Specs/Scarf/Orb all at once now. Also what is this trick discussion? These items have been out like a week, tiers are still unstable, and you people are already requesting a discussion to ban a move? lmao chill tf out guys banning a move isn't something you just do after a leisurely stroll after work in your spare time or something, it's the kind of thing you try and avoid if at all possible, and it's definitely not something you start considering so quickly.

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