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  1. this Azu fear is killing me, pls stop. so, Gen 5 is probably the generation I have played the most. Coincidentally, fuck Gen 5, it's the worst gen, weather wars suck. With that being said, by far my favorite archetype in Gen 5 was rain teams. Sand just felt kind of gross to play, and Sun was much of the same, so I stuck with Rain. And logically, past me looked at all the possible pokemon I could use, looked at Azumarill, and thought: "Holy shit, all this attack, STAB Waterfall and Aqua Jet, BOOSTED BY RAIN? This is BROKEN! Why isn't this OU?"; So, I played a shit ton of Azumarill on my rain team, sticking to CB (Belly Drum+Jet wasn't legal, but even if it was, there's no way it'd get anywhere), as it was really the only real way to make it work. So, naturally, let's start out by talking about Azumarill's viability in Gen 5 OU, which as you might imagine, was nonexistent. (See BW OU SPL Usage; Literally 0 Azu, for good reason, despite tons of Politoeds)I mean, it wasn't bad, it could viably hit things and hit them decently hard. However, it suffered from quite a few major flaws: First of all, it was only viable on Rain. This in itself is like 30 different flaws, and it really hampers any viability this thing might have. Without Rain up, it's just a Water type that hits harder than normal, with fucking terrible coverage (Superpower/Ice Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Double-Edge/Return if you want lmao) and a decent priority move. There are a million better options than it. You can't run it as an anti-rain mon to take advantage of opposing rain teams either, because it fucking sucked against Rain teams, and even if it didn't, there are actually good anti-Rain team options available. So, it's only viable on Rain, but that's not too bad, right? I mean, Rain's pretty good. It OHKO's most of the highest usage pokemon in the tier with the right move too, so if it comes in, it can do some real damage. Well, no, it being only viable on Rain is that bad. In gen 5, it's pure Water type, meaning it has literally no defensive synergy with rain teams, greatly compounding their weaknesses. Even it's main coverage options, Water/Ice/Fighting have literally no synergy with the average types you'd find on other rain mons, with Fighting being ridiculously common (especially on lolKeldeo), Ice is a common coverage option available to water types, and Water doesn't even need to be discussed. Typewise and coverage wise, Azumarill is just another assortment of common weaknesses that the rain team has to deal with. And that's terrible. The terrible defensive synergy also compounds another big weakness Azumarill has; It's really, ridiculously susceptible to chip damage. For a slow, kind of bulky mon that comes in, hits something, and is forced out, it has big problems with getting chipped down. It's susceptible to every entry hazard, and in Gen 5, spinning away hazards is a gigantic pain in the ass. Spikes spam and T.Spikes are really obnoxious, and Azumarill gets completely obliterated by it. This also means that not only is Azumarill hard to switch in, but you have to make the few times it does get to come in really count. However, it's coverage options are so bad, that if you pick the wrong move (ie end up Waterfall/Aqua Jetting a Ferrothorn or something), not only have you completely thrown away your momentum, but your Azumarill is only 1 or 2 more switchins away from getting kept as a sac or Aqua Jet threat. Even if you do make the correct prediction, Azumarill is then massive setup bait. Naturally, this is an obvious flaw of a pokemon that is pretty much always CB-Locked, but Azumarill is especially huge setup bait. Also, all of this is ignoring the several pokemon that completely just hard counter and shut Azumarill down (Gastrodon, Jellicent, Rain Stall Tentacruel come to mind, Jellicent especially), so if whatever reason you do struggle with it and just playing around it regularly for some reason, it's not like you don't have options. So, I hope I've established that Azumarill isn't good in Gen 5 OU, like, at all. So, this brings up the question; Would it be good in PokeMMO Gen 5 Discount Toffee Imitation? No, probably not. So, it gains Belly Drum, the legendaries aren't around, weather isn't permanent, and if it's lucky, Defog will remove hazards, so it won't have to fucking implode every time a Ferrothorn gets a little cheeky on the other team. Buuuut, Rain isn't permanent, meaning Swift Swim + Drizzle will be legal, and it still suffers from the problems it had in Gen 5; Notably, without Rain, it hits hard, but nowhere near hard enough to be considered over other hard hitters, it has bad coverage options, all of the pokemon that walled it into oblivion are still available, and it provides pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. And with 5/8 turn rain and Swift Swim allowed, Azumarill would be hard pressed to find a slot on a rain team. The only way it could work as a win condition on a team like that is with Belly Drum, but with the terrible defensive synergy it has, it'd be hard pressed to get a Drum off; Even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be unstoppable. A CB set would be just as bad, the moment you run into a team that has a hard counter to Azu, your hyper-offense Rain team now has a pokemon that is effectively a liability, and can't even really function as a pivot due to it's type not complimenting your other mons. It's too easily walled and too inconsistent, especially when compared to threats like SS Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. So, what about non-Rain teams? Well, it really, really misses the Rain boost, and being pure water type does it no favors. Without the Rain boost, CB Azumarill even gets stalled out by Skarmory, which is just terrible. Yeah, on non-rain teams it at least isn't making the whole "I've got like 4 water types on my team" issue worse, but it's not exactly a great positive. Most non-rain teams are going to want their own bulky waters anyway to deal with Rain, which sucks for Azumarill; Every team is keeping options on hand for dealing with water types like it, both offensively and defensively, meaning that against any decent team, Azumarill is gonna really struggle to get in AND to break through their defensive core. It's resistances really do it no favors; Steel is really uncommon offensively, barring something like Ferrothorn, which Azu would never in a million years want to come in on, Water/Ice are most common from Water types that Azu doesn't want to come in on, since they probably wall it anyway, and if it gets Scald burned it's literally useless, and Fire would only really be seen on Sun teams with Sun up, which can OHKO it with a Solarbeam, outspeed, and even if it Aqua Jets it almost definitely won't OHKO in the sunlight. At the end of the day, hitting hard just isn't enough. Without the Fairy type, Play Rough, and super-Knock Off, Azumarill struggles to consistently come in, it's coverage is so bad that it's very predictable and walled by a good amount of bulky waters, and there's just... other pokemon that can hit hard. CB gets punished hard even if it does manage to get in and hit something, (assuming the enemy has 0 reliable answers) which is unreliable, and Belly Drum has a hard time setting up, and even if it does, it isn't even close to a guaranteed sweep. It won't even have Rain to make it stronger to fall back on, because honestly, I can't imagine Rain teams bothering with Azumarill, they have way better sweepers/hard hitters to choose from. tl;dr pick up a jellicent or something fuck azu isn't very good guys call me when you get fairies
  2. I don't really agree with you. Yes, Twave is absolutely one of the best moves in pokemon history, seeing use in pretty much every gen on many different pokemon you're 100% correct about that. The change to paralysis to only cut speed in half instead of crippling your pokemon's speed to unusable levels was huge, is a shit ton of gens late imo, should have been added forever ago. But the Twave accuracy nerf is just obnoxious. Yeah, you're right, it makes more sense in terms of consistency to have Twave not be 100% accurate when you look at other status moves, but that's only when looking at a surface level. But other than making more sense in terms of consistency, is there really any reason to nerf the accuracy? Yeah, Twave is super good. I don't doubt it's as good in PokeMMO as it is in pretty much every pokemon gen, and the speed loss nerf is super warranted. But nerfing the accuracy really doesn't actually nerf the move itself that much. Yeah, you can miss now, and when you miss it sucks. But are Chanseys really gonna stop running Twave just because 10% of the time it misses now? No, of course not, because 90% of the time it still does the job, and it doesn't have an option anywhere near as good for spreading paralysis. Just like how Toxic missing every so often is incredibly obnoxious and can sometimes even lose a game, but that really isn't a factor in whether or not its' used, because there isn't another move that functions quite like Toxic, you can't substitute it for a more reliable option. It missing is just part of the game. It's not like how you run Thunderbolt over Thunder, because Thunderbolt actually hits, you can't sub Toxic or Twave for "slightly worse in terms of raw power but more accurate". You're just stuck with them. The accuracy nerf on Twave doesn't nerf the move significantly enough to really alter what pokemon its' used on, unless you really, really hate missing I guess. It just adds a small, potentially game changing bit of RNG to a strong move. RNG is part of pokemon, but generally, I'm personally opposed to just throwing in changes that add extra RNG to the game. If I was forced to choose between Twave staying the same, or going fully Gen 7 with the speed cut nerf and the change to 90% acc, I'd choose full Gen 7 every time. But if I could pick and choose, I'd just take the speed nerf. Ideally, that should be significant enough to force people to exercise more judgement on when they should use it, if at all. It adds more skill to the game, by making Twave less generally useful, and by extension lass spammable both in battle and on movesets. Lowering the accuracy doesn't really make Twave use more skillful. Yes, it increases the risk of using it slightly, but it's not going to influence your play to a significant degree, if at all. You just play under the assumption that it'll hit, because almost every time, yeah, it will. And sometimes you're just gonna get screwed by RNG, and it just... won't hit. Yeah, Twave is slightly worse now, and it's more consistent with other status moves, but have you made Twave a more skill intensive and situational move by nerfing the accuracy? Not really. tl;dr: speed nerf is great, accuracy change is really annoying. speed nerf should be added at all costs tho, it's that great, twave has always been gourd tier.
  3. sorry jj, wobbu scares me, i was getting war flashbacks.
  4. the reasoning you've given for the initial wobbuffet banning is pretty off the mark. Wobbu was not initially banned because you can't switch out when trapped by another wobb. In fact, when Wobbuffet first came out, Shadow Tag didn't even work, and it got insta-banned by everyone simply because it was banned in Gen 3. Ofc, this was pre-tier council. By the time Shadow Tag did work, I'm pretty sure there were also the Struggle mechanics that made it so Struggle took away 25% of your health, so even then, it wasn't that big an issue, and shortly after that future gen Shadow Tag was added so you COULD switch out in Wobbu v Wobbu. The issue with Wobbuffet causing infinite stalls was pretty much never a concern as to why it was banned. Of course, there's also a reason why for a year + since future-gen Shadow Tag was added, bringing down Wobbuffet was never a serious discussion point. Also, your argument for bringing down Wobbuffet doesn't seem to consider what makes Wobbuffet effective, and by extension, terribly obnoxious. I mean, it is "weak to toxic", but Toxic has been around and used forever. Maybe it's used slightly more now, but it's not like some new addition that massively hits Wobbuffet. In fact, with Snorlax gone, having Chansey as the most used pokemon, a mon that can serve as an effective cleric actually helps Wobbuffet quite a bit. Not to mention that Toxicing Wobbuffet isn't actually that free. It can be pretty obvious when you're gonna toxic a Wobbuffet, and it can be exploited by Encore. While that strategy isn't as potent in this meta, since we lack Baton Pass to really capitalize on a "free turn", you can still, say, get your Guts Hera a free status, AND a super free switchin to punish the enemy. You also say Wobbu finds itself most effective in trapping Choice users, but if anything, that only argues Wobbu is probably better in this meta than he has been before, given the greater variety of Banded pokemon running around. You also say Wobbuffet needs support to be effective, but I don't understand what you mean by that. As a trapper, Wobbuffet is one of the pokemon that flourishes by PROVIDING the support, trapping threats that your team has trouble with and dispatching them easily. Once it gets in on a favorable matchup, that's it. Wobbuffet doesn't need support throughout the match, it just needs to annihilate whatever threat you don't want to deal with. It is the support. I absolutely, without a doubt believe Wobbuffet is super cancer. Not so much Wobbu himself, but Shadow Tag in singles is absurd. When Shadow Tag gets banned in Gen 6, and Mega Gengar almost got banned from Ubers for Shadow Tag, the ability is just silly. The only generation where Shadow Tag Wobbuffet isn't effectively banned is Gen 5, where better matchups make the other trappers (Dugtrio+Gothitelle) more favored, the damage dealt by enemies significantly higher (weather boosted choice attacks hurt, and Wobbu doesn't resist Fire/Water moves), and Encore got a significant nerf to only last 3 turns (although, this change is actually in pokemmo, but I'm not sure it matters as much). Shadow Tag is just too effective. Wobbuffet is incredibly limited and relatively predictable, but it doesn't matter, because it has all the tools it needs to do its' job and the enemy can't switch out once it is in. When we live in a world where Trapinch is almost OU by usage because Arena Trap is that good, Wobbuffet reigns above all. Also, Shed Hull is a really bad argument imo. If you're running Shed Hull on your offensive pokemon instead of a Band or something because of Wobbuffet, the wobbu user has already won. Honestly, you could make a decent argument Wobbuffet is not broken. It doesn't need much more than what it has, but it is still fairly limited, it doesn't have any Baton Pass support for super easy switchins, or teammates that can exploit Encore turns for free setup to pass to major threats. There's also the Encore nerf, which has been implemented forever, and really sucks for Wobbu. It doesn't have the option of Custap that it does in later gens, which lets it Destiny Bond + Encore before it falls. But even in a world where Wobbuffet isn't broken, there's no doubt in my mind that it will remain uncompetitive. Shadow Tag is just that lethal. It doesn't feel good to play against due to the limited counterplay, but is still ridiculously potent for how straightforward it is. Also this: This is kinda absurd, cmon. There's been tons of tier resets, re-tests, etc. etc. before. Actually, Wobbuffet is the only pokemon in all of PokeMMO to never have any time in OU, everything else has had several chances. Saying that retroactive unbans won't happen because people aren't willing to test the only pokemon which has managed to keep a 100% ban uptime in all of PokeMMO is just...wrong.
  5. Make sure that when someone declines your proposal, the wedding ring disappears forever and you have to buy another one. Think of all the hundreds of dollars you can make on delusional white knights! Hundreds!
  6. So I guess for those who are curious, I made that pastebin through mostly memory, and combed through the old council PMs for the general dates/times of when events took place. With Amanu + Thinknice dead, that's probably the most accurate list of bans (especially early ones) you're gonna get. I didn't bother with the lower tiers for several reasons: 1: I honestly barely remember them. 2: The PMs are like, really long. Scouring them for information is kind of a pain, and for the lower tiers, I basically have to to even remember what the bans were. The old discussion threads are also long gone, so there isn't any other way to gather the information. 3: Due to the NU/UU/OU council separation of whenever that happened, the records for the lower tiers I have don't trace that far back anyway. Of course, on top of the gap in information from when I left ~1 year ago and now as well. with that being said, here's some history on lower tiers anyway. Not really sure if this is actually applicable/relevant in this thread at this moment, since most of the bans are so dated they won't be of much benefit, but if people want to create a masterlist of old bans, then this + the pastebin from up there is a good start. This is pretty much everything I could get. I could probably get some more information from post September 2014 if I really tried, but it's pretty liable to being full of holes and it's significantly more work. If anyone wants to use this as a base to add to it for a more complete list, go ahead, because I probably won't.
  7. naw, you can still use regular forms in gen 7 along with Alolan forms. The base attack buff is applied to both regular and Alolan dugtrio. In fact, Alolan Dugtrio actually has a different stat spread than regular, as it loses 10 base speed for 10 defense.
  8. If Surf then Psychic: Win condition is for Heracross to get fully para'd/miss on either turn 1 or 2. The odds of this is 59.6%. Also, you lose if you crit Surf (6.25%), or a crit megahorn on turn 2, which isn't a concern for psychic (because it's dead no matter what lol). Your chance of victory is roughly ~ 52.4%. (it's actually a little higher because i calculated the odds for the crit megahorn in the laziest way possible) If Psychic x2: Win condition is to either crit (6.25%) or for Heracross to get fully para'd/miss on ONLY TURN 2 (36.25%). Because of Swarm, regardless of whether he hits or misses the first Megahorn, you lose as long as he hits on turn 2. Your chance of victory is ~40.3%. In both cases, you lose to a Crit Megahorn turn 1 (6.25%), so it's irrelevant to the discussion. There you go, ez.
  9. Anyway, the meta might be slow, but it's not like Swagger just got added to the game, it's been around for literally years, and after all this time, there's only one pokemon just starting to abuse it. (Although, SubSwagger Jolteon has been used as a gimmick every now and then iirc); After all this time, before anyone tries to do anything to adapt to the threat, people want an entire move (and from the looks of things, now 2 in Confuse Ray too) banned under the pretense that they MIGHT be used on more pokemon later maybe? It's not like these are new moves that need to be handled with kid gloves and we need to preemptively deal with or else; They've been around for a ridiculously long time with no real problem. Yeah, I know this is just a discussion thread and it's not like anything is going to happen, but honestly, even having a discussion thread at this point is, imo, waaaaaay too preemptive. But beyond Swagger being around 5ever, yeah, the meta is slow to evolve, but that also means there hasn't been enough time for anyone to even try and adapt to the fact SubSwagger Jolteon is a threat. The metagame taking a long time to evolve goes both ways, and there's definitely been more time for Swagger/Confuse Ray to become prevalent than there has been for people to adapt to deal with them.
  10. so I'm seeing a lot of people talk about SwagPlay like it's exactly the same thing as subswagger, and I'm here to say it's not. So, the first thing, SwagPlay is called SwagPlay because half of the strategy is, in fact, Foul Play. Yes, Swagger is what was ultimately banned, but that was only because they determined that keeping it around wasn't really something they cared about, banning Foul Play/Prankster isn't desirable since they're pretty legitimate and commonly used, and they'd rather not throw in a complex ban. However, the reason it was banned wasn't because of Confusion RNG, or just Swagger's increased self-damage to the opponent, but because of the way Swagger attack boosts work with Foul Play. Heavy attackers would often get 2, or even OHKO'd by a boosted Foul Play, and it's not like they can outspeed the Swagger regardless of how fast they are. Even walls can take heavy damage after a few Swaggers, making it exceptionally dangerous. Sure, you can switch out to get rid of the boosts, but they're just slowly whittling down your whole team with Paras and Foul Play damage while staring down a Klefki which is still at half HP, and your opponent has 5 other pokemon. Foul Play being thrown in is the biggest part of what made SwagPlay actually threatening; Without it, sure, it can do a lot of recoil damage to your Charizard-X or Tyranitar, but honestly, at that point there's a lot more you can switch in that doesn't particularly care about a little bit of recoil damage and a para. Foul Play gives the Swagger+Prankster pokemon a tool that can actually damage and pressure the opponent, instead of just passively sitting there while the enemy wastes turns and wins the eventual PP stall. That's also the reason Jolteon is even remotely viable with SubSwagger right now, because it can actually put on some legitimate pressure in addition to using Sub Swagger to do some damage to Snorlax, potentially even scaring it away. Which is also why I find this discussion a bit ridiculous; SubSwagger is only being used because it's very effective against a very common answer (Snorlax) to a very specific threat (Jolteon). If it weren't for Snorlax, it wouldn't be anywhere close to viable. Confusion isn't inherently banworthy, because it is definitely possible to play around/against it; Of course, if you're relying on Snorlax as an answer to Jolteon and then find out it's carrying SubSwagger and you get completely shit on, yeah, it's very easy to feel like it's pure RNG bullshit you can't do anything about. But, honestly, all it says to me is that you shouldn't be relying on Snorlax to answer Jolteon anymore, because it is no longer a reliable answer. What's a SubSwagger Jolteon going to do to a Chansey? A Gardevoir? A whole lot of nothing. SubSwagger Jolteon's shenanigans isn't anywhere near as universally obnoxious as SwagPlay was at fucking with pretty much everything, because there's actually pretty viable pokemon that can completely shut it down. Also, of course, there was more than one pokemon that actually abused SwagPlay when it was banned.
  11. so since i'm getting namedropped, I guess I'll just drop in then with what I actually think. Yeah, starting it in OU is fine. If we're comparing it to Smogon, I'm pretty sure they do drop new pokemon like that in OU, and then just drop it down if it doesn't meet usage, assuming the pokemon looks even remotely potentially viable. It's either start it out in NU (lol), starting it in UU (I guess??) or starting it in OU. If it's not altogether unlikely it'll meet OU usage, just drop it in OU to start with, if it's not used as much as was expected and drops to UU, just drop it and deal with it then, ez.
  12. Snail.

    1. Show previous comments  4 more
    2. Senile


      Naw guy, let it be both. 1v1 violent drinking, drinking with one hand and fistfighting with the other, les go.

    3. RysPicz


      You just brought awkwardness to a whole new level

    4. Senile


      It's my specialty, of course I did

  13. Actually, Berry Juice was banned in both 4th/5th gens, since it was inception, and just hasn't been banned in Gen 6. Attacks putting you under 50% really isn't anywhere near as difficult as you're making it sound, especially in LC, and when the reward of literally a full heal is pretty damn good. Although, you are right that life orb is pretty great.
  14. I mean, the reason I bring up the extra baton pass users is mostly because people keep bringing up 4th gen; Most of them, ESPECIALLY Gliscor, Togekiss and Celebi are all large parts of 4th Gen Baton Pass teams, and Gliscor is probably the single best lone boost-passer you can run on a regular 4th gen team. Not having them is pretty relevant when bringing gen 4 into the discussion. As for baton pass teams...ehhhh, they kind of weren't a thing. A few people ran them in Viridian, there was 1 tournament where a baton pass team swept through and either won or got to finals, and people got really upset about that, but other than that isolated instance Baton Pass teams really never saw much success. You're right that stopping it is easier said than done, but honestly, the same applies to any team archetype. Baton Pass teams crux their entire strategy and all of their odds at winning on this one tactic; If all it took to beat them was running a pokemon with Whirlwind and laughing, it'd be absolute garbage. As for one choice locked move letting something setup, that's honestly a lot more relevant for single Baton Passers like Gligar or Scizor than baton pass teams. With Baton Pass teams, they'll start setting up almost immediately, and within the first 3 turns you should already know what they're doing, if not from turn 1. Plus, like you mentioned, we don't have resist berries or Light Clay, and Brick Break is actually viable on several pokemon, so dual screens support isn't as good as it is in later gens, where BP teams heavily rely on it for early setup. Gligar would probably be doomed to UU, and even if it is a problem there, (honestly I could see it happening), it can just be banned to BL. Scizor probably won't be THAT amazing, but definitely more than annoying. Jolteon sub passing is actually the one I think you're underestimating here, because passing to trappers vs Bliss/Lax switchins seems incredibly annoying, and was actually a huge problem when BP was first banned.