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Tier Council
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  1. Defog actually having good distribution now + no team preview, along with the fact that Bisharp kind of tears apart everything in UU with a +2 Boost is a bit much. It punishes defog insanely hard, with pretty much no good switchins. It was already probably gonna be a pretty solid UU pokemon beforehand IMO, but it's interaction with Defog is incredibly shitty for the tier.
  2. because they're not good enough to be in any higher tiers. The only one in that list I think could actually ever be problematic is BD Zangoose on a good day, but I'm pretty doubtful.
  3. dittoing literally everything everyone else has said, FEAR is as close to being problematic as fucking subseed jumpluff lmao
  4. Basically. It went from Zoroark being a possibility and Hippowdon being unlikely to Hippo getting confirmed, and Zoroark being pushed off to some unknown time.
  5. The literal only reason Tentacruel is OU in Gen 5 is because it's one of the only reliable spinners, (Starmie/Excadrill are pretty much your only other options, and Excadrill was banned for a long time) has pretty good passive recovery in Rain with Sludge + Rain Dish, and it's typing lets it answer some scary threats, such as Keldeo, Keldeo, and of course, Keldeo. Just look at it's literal only listed set in BW OU; Tentacruel's best use by far is as a spinner. But if we're getting widespread Defog usage, along with a metagame where Tentacruel's recovery is worse than ever, as well as the things it can check the best not even being out in the metagame to be a threat, it's suddenly a lot less relevant. Not only does Defog make Tenta super irrelevant in OU, but there are a TON of good Defoggers in UU now giving it massive competition.
  6. The lists have been changed again, and this is (probably) gonna be the final iteration before the update actually comes out. The main reason for a good amount of these changes has to do with the new addition of Defog as a tutor move, giving it actual distribution, but there's other changes that were made before the Defog tutor thing and never put on this public list. Changes: Hippowdon Nonexistent -> OU Zoroark UU -> Nonexistent Galvantula NU -> UU Mienshao UU -> OU Gliscor UU -> OU Gligar NU -> UU Forretress OU -> UU Tentacruel UU -> NU Mismagius UU -> NU Mantine NU -> UU Bisharp UU -> BL Honchkrow NU -> UU Pretty sure this covers everything that's changed from the old lists.
  7. New Tiers

    So, you're right that in later gens (noticeable in gen 5, but gets really bad in gen 6+) that team matchups become a HUGE problem, and the problem with matchups from the massive amount of available pokemon caused a shift in tiering philosophy Gen 6+ on Smogon. Part of the reason Arena Trap and Shadow Tag got flatbanned; Trapping exacerbates the difficulty of bad matchups to absurd level. With that being said, splitting up NU into RU and NU doesn't actually solve the problem at all. All your suggestion does is rename NU to RU, and put a tier below it. With that being said, the existence of a tier below RU doesn't make your suggested "70 relevant pokemon" any less relevant; You can still use NU pokemon in RU. It sounds like your argument is "NU is too big, team matchups will be a huge problem, we need a tier below it to split up the good pokemon between the new RU and NU", but that doesn't actually lower the amount of pokemon in the newly proposed RU tier at all; By your logic, it will have the exact same problem. Yeah, the new NU will have less pokemon, but all you're doing is pushing the problem to a new name instead of actually fixing it.
  8. Event prizes

    Trick Room isn't the only reason for min speed, maximizing Gyro Ball damage is huge on the pokemon that run it, and the difference between 0 speed and 25 or 31 is actually a lot bigger than you might expect.
  9. If you think there isn't any substance to it, then you obviously just aren't going to agree. With that being said, I will explain it one more time: The reason Hidden Power was nerfed in Gen 6 from 70 BP to 60 is because was used on too many pokemon, too often, as a coverage move. It was never "Too good", it's not a broken move, and it doesn't make things broken, it's just run too frequently and on too many things because at 70 BP, it's that good as a coverage option on anything special/mixed, and sometimes even physical mons, due to the fact it can be any type. That's it. End of discussion. If you don't think that is problematic whatsoever, then you obviously don't and will never have a problem with 70 BP Hidden Power, so of course you don't think the argument for 60 BP has any substance. Because on a fundamental level, your idea of "problematic" is so far removed from the reason it was nerfed that there's nothing else to say; You simply don't agree that the reason for the nerf is valid. And you're welcome to think that, but if you do think that, then don't stand there and say that the reason has not been presented to you. It has. You're simply choosing to ignore it, because you don't agree with it. But that doesn't mean the reason doesn't exist.
  10. Ahhh, I'm sure you felt so clever saying this. You really got me. Refuted my points and made me topple. You got the Sp.Def drop and crit, I never stood a chance. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered, when my posts are going to get destroyed like this. Damn. I'll ask the mods to delete my account to save myself the embarrassment.
  11. You do understand that 90% of the argument by the TC to Darkshade/the devs at the time for 70 BP was basically "We'll have the special split, but not gen 4+ moves, so stronger BP is necessary to cover up the holes we'll have for coverage options". The fact we're going back to 60 BP with gen 5 is literally exactly the expected outcome, since the reason for 70 BP literally no longer exists. You're welcome to disagree with 60 BP, but it was a sensible nerf in Gen 6, and the only reason we diverged from it is because it wasn't sensible for PokeMMO. With Gen 5 though, it more than makes sense; There's no reason for such a universally splashable coverage move to exist.
  12. just have a UBER tier

    Not every team needs walls. In fact, I'd argue most teams outside of stall don't necessarily need anything resembling a dedicated wall.
  13. just have a UBER tier

    Probably Ban Dugtrio and then presumably in a later update it would have Arena Trap removed from it. I guess you could call it a complex ban, but again, it's not a complex ban in the main reason we avoid them; It's not confusing or unnecessarily convoluted. Nobody is going to make their team and realize "ah shit, arena trap is banned on Dugtrio", because they'll never have gotten that far in the first place. If by "Other kinds of complex bans" you mean, like, removing moves for a pokemon's movepool, idk, we'll see. That seems like a more likely option than changing base stats in my opinion.
  14. just have a UBER tier

    For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.
  15. just have a UBER tier

    The Japanese actually do hate Heracross for some reason, lmao. Also, not arguing against Outrage or the dragons in OU right now, although I do think they're super overhyped, I was mostly talking about actual gen 5. (With that being said, LF my boy Jirachi) A lot of gem moves were fucking dumb in VGC, but you're right about Draco Meteor; Of course, that's why they just removed gems. Also, yeah, I forgot about fighting types, but that doesn't really conflict with what I said; Fairy was their swiss army knife for Gen 6 to try and balance out the type chart as much as possible in 1 type. Resistance to Dark/Bug/Fighting and an immunity to Dragon, some of the best offensive types, especially after Dark got it's steel resistance removed and Knock Off added, and a weakness to Poison/Steel, some of the worst offensive types, and a counterbalance to Steel's nerf.

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