Havsha
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Posts posted by Havsha
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57 minutes ago, gbwead said:
Before going into what should be the right solutions for the problem, I urge the following players that have defended Serperior in the past to speak up now:
I don't really think I need to add my 2 cents, the points I've raised have already been mentioned in this thread, but tbh just based on how many players seem to be supporting a serp ban, well that's more than enough to convince me, I'm by no means an expert, if the majority of the community believe its busted, its probably busted
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Im still struggling to see how you all say we dont already have the tools to deal with Serp. (I know Legendaries and more HAs will give us better tools, but the ones we have aren't all too bad).
Defensively we have the bats that can switch in, U-turn to break sub, or threaten with Brave Bird (Or if youre so scared of recoil, then theres always U-Turn, Aerial Ace, Sludge Bomb, etc), Chansey/Bliss/P2 with teleport, Togekiss (haven't calced yet, but from experience it usually works) and Unaware Clef (Which should always beat Serp 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 60-72 (29.7 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.) (Clef's always been a pretty staple mon in later gens, yeah it doesnt have fairy typing yet, but still viable)
Offensively there's Volc, Weavile, Chandelure, Toge, Scarf Mon, and probably a bunch more I've left out.
Most of the arguments I hear against these answers are all related to the the glare set which has a few issues as far as im concerned. Firstly it is rng reliant, paras can let Serp beat its checks, but thats not a unique trait to Serp. Secondly it limits Serps movepool to two attacks (unless you want glare and 3 attacks, in which case para fishing isn't a viable option) if you go HP fire then dragons can beat Serp, and if you run Dragon Pulse then its walled by ferro and scizor. And I guess finally, a mon like Volc getting para'd isnt as game breaking as some of yall are saying, you can run heal bell support if you're that worried about it.
Regarding the issue about how expensive Serp is to make, thats not a PvP balance issue, thats a economy balance issue that is creating unnecessary barrier to pvp, which is bad, but I dont know if its relevant to the debate, but maybe im wrong.
- TohnR, Johnwaynee, xEdstrom and 1 other
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1 minute ago, CaptnBaklava said:
Sun was and will always be broken in BW. Sun beeing banned from og BW OU is the statement for that.
Sun in BW, or more so weather in general, was broken because it lasted the entire battle not just a set amount of turns. Not really compariable to MMO.
- Johnwaynee, RysPicz and Munya
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23 minutes ago, gbwead said:
Leaf Storm/Hidden Power/Substitute/Leech Seed
If Golbat switches into a Serperior doing Sub, Golbat will have to deal with Leech Seed while Serperior hides behind a Substitute. On top of that, Golbat doesn't have Leftovers recovery and will take recoil from brave bird or will risk miss potential with heat wave. In both cases, Serperior is not really in a bad position. If someone wants to test this scenario, I'm available but don't have the mons.
Couldn't bat slow U-turn (breaking sub) and go to a scarfer/offensive mon that forces Serp out?
23 minutes ago, gbwead said:Leaf Storm/Hidden Power/Substitute/Glare
This is most likely the best Sub Serperior for Golbat to face. Sub+Glare will still be a big pain. We are talking about 5 substitute that Golbat will have to break. That's a lot of potential para, a lot of recoil dmg (brave bird) and a lot of miss potential (heat wave).
Oh and before someone says something idiotic like relying on a para is the same as fishing for a freeze, I want to make sure people understand there is a huge difference between freezing a target (10% with Ice Beam) and paralysing a target (100% with Glare). Those odds are significantly different, so please let's not waste our time with these terrible arguments.
Para is annoying true, id need to see that getting one or two paras is enough to beat golbat since youre boosting, seeing as at +6 its still only a chance to 2hit bat
+6 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 153-181 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
and again, slow u-turn can just break the sub and you can go to a scarfer/offesnive mon that forces Serp out
23 minutes ago, gbwead said:Leaf Storm/Substitute/Leech Seed/Glare
This is the annoyer set so it's not really a big sweeper, but it's a complete nightmare for Golbat. Based on the scenarios described above.
this would lose to golbat tbh, serp would run out of leaf storms unless you get some unlucky paras.
23 minutes ago, gbwead said:Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power/Glare
I personally only have 1 Serperior and run this set with metronome. Metronome Dragon Pulse does very decent dmg to Golbat. If I remember correctly, Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse + Brave Bird Recoil + Dragon Pulse Metronme will kill Golbat. I realise Metronome is not common on Serperior, but I think this shows how even the worst possible set can deal fairly well with Golbat.
I dont know how to calc for metronome, but this should still lose unless you get lucky paras
+6 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 217-256 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- not a KO
Really, the more I think about it the more I feel like golbat is an answer, slow uturn can break sub and get in a more advantageous mon to deal with serp, it can roost up to do so multiple times, and really the only way it loses vs serp is paras, but thats the case for any para'd mon vs any other non para'd mon.
0 Atk Golbat U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 88-104 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 25.5% chance to 3HKO (Uturn always breaks substitute)
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't golbat a solid check? Even defensive could probably switch in on leaf storm, gets access to uturn brave bird, to threaten it, can recover with Roost, and Heck even gets access to haze. Even without infiltrator it feels like a solid answer.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 108-128 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 51% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 74-88 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Serp suffers from 4mss, no one set can beat everything. Sub Seed means no glare and only 2 attacks, if it doesn't have dpulse then dragons can check it(calcs may be needed I'm lazy). If it's dpulse, but no hp fire then ferro walls it. If it's 3 attack then golbat, weezing and maybe bliss/chansey (I don't know the calcs) can deal with it.
Also weavile should always be able to revenge with Icicle Spear.
- SuperBXdanielo, RysPicz and TohnR
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Just now, KaynineXL said:
I think that takes away the point of this event though. Players having to adapt and improve in tiers they wouldn't normally play can be rewarded here.
Remember, if you really can't get a badge because you're not experienced enough in their tier, you can still get to the final bracket. You don't need 8 badges but those that do will take priority.
I dont really buy into the whole "versatility" and "exerience" stuff when it comes to dubs/singles. Theyre seperate formats, like VGC and singles, or heck to give a real world analogy sevens rugby vs rugby. Yeah there are obviously inherent similarities, but theyre different sports. I dunno, I guess the big thing is that if we want the players to be versatile, we should expect the same from the gym leaders. Unless we're just gonna acknowledge that the gym leaders aren't necessarily the best of that team, in which case their choice to select dubs is definetly a choice to try cheese things/the other better players dont want to be gym leader
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7 minutes ago, YJos said:
Well, i tried to get them to keep in mind that players who play singles formats aren't the only ones who have trouble challenging a gym leader who plays doubles, but it got out of control, if you want to think that they're at a disadvantage by having to play a "mechanics" different from what they are used to, there is little i can do. Personally, i feel at a disadvantage having to challenge leaders who will hardly choose doubles, who will probably choose OU, NU or UU because they are their master tiers, but i am not complaining about it, i will have to find a way to beat them if i want the prize, that's all.
I agree that people who only play dubs will be at more of a disadvantage than people who only play single. In an ideal world there would be a singles and dubs version of this event, but we just dont have a large enough player base
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8 minutes ago, YJos said:
You are right, they are all individual, but that does not mean that their metagames are the same thing, and that i have to adapt to all of them to be able to challenge an expert in the tier, a team and strategy used in NU will hardly give me results in UU, what same from UU to OU.
We all have problems to deal with in order to challenge the players and gym leaders.
The big distinction between tiers and formats isnt the meta, its the mechanics. The mechanics of OU are the same as UU and NU, but the mechanics of a singles battle is totally different from doubles. Whilst you can take your knowledge of OU mechanics to the lower tiers, its far less applicable to Dubs (and vice versa)
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Just now, Poufilou said:
The goal of it all IS to make players versatile and open to new tiers, it's not a barrier that you can't cross and I now understand Draekin post ; you have enough attempts to be rewarded of making the effort. I honestly find it cool that similarly to the main games, some gyms have their gimmicks and don't mind one with a doubles gym leader. (Ofc I would mind if there were three but most gyms managed to be different and not cheese the system).
Eh, still kinda feels cheesy. Challenges based on versatility should probably stick to the gym trainers, but I'm really not too concerned, I don't want to be a negative Nancy or anything
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2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:
In this gym you play in two tiers at least. Or you play UT on stage 0 and run the rest of Gym on a single tier, or play in stage 2 at least 2 different tiers.
Stage 0 is optional, taking that challenge on will reduce the cool down and count towards a single victory in Stage 1. After you complete Stage 1 you will need to complete Stage 2. In stage 2 you have to earn 2 victories vs 2 elite trainers in 2 different tiers. So, UT, or any other tier you chose in Stage 0/1 will not count towards Stage 2's tier requirement.
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I do kind of feel like the gym leader should always give an option of two tiers. (Perhaps one HAS to be OU) since having only one option (dubs) kind of cheeses the system a little. A gym can put a really good dubs player as their leader and effectively limit the possible competition who can realistically take their badge. Since a lot of the people challenging will not have played dubs, meaning they'll have to breed up a team, learn the tier and then win against someone who's been playing dubs for years.
Is it possible for new dubs players to win in this time? Sure, but it does seem like a no brainer that if a gym wants to defend their badge they should just make the gym leaders dubs only.
I dunno, I get the need to keep the gym leader as the biggest challenge, and enforcing one tier like dubs is a very easy way to do that. But, it feels like a fairly cheesy way of doing it, I'd rather a gym badge be difficult to get because the gym leaders are the best the team has to offer, not because of the barrier of entry of a tier.
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13 minutes ago, Poufilou said:
Can we make gym leader battles BO3 with a format like (OU/Challenger's choice/Gym leader's choice) to avoid the situation where you will forever have to play a tier/format you don't like/play since that's always the option gym leaders will choose against you ? Like, OK I like that a badge needs challenge to be claimed but being forced to play a fucking Doubles match after climbing my way to a gym leader seems the definition of not fun.
If we go bo3 I think it should be (Gym Leader's Choice/Loser of M1 Choice/Loser of M2 Choice). I believe this is more in line with smogon tours, and just seems fairer, whilst still giving the gym leader an intial "advantage"
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37 minutes ago, Zymogen said:
Correct me if I’m wrong but Magic Bounce doesn’t prevent defog, does it? It simply causes the user’s evasion to drop instead whilst still removing hazards and screens?
Defog will only remove screens on your opponents side of the field (not your own) so when Defog is Magic bounced, your screens are removed and not theirs
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6 minutes ago, Essebinha said:
yes, anyway rotom is not the best example, since it has Hex. Also, already in the past Lucario was given a chance in UU, a chance to P-z in UU (Y stayed in uu), to Blastoise Shell smash..., Maybe we should give machamp a chance, if he breaks the goal he goes up to UU, as was done in the past.
Giving lucario a chance in uu was a mistake
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I posted this a while back in a movement discussion thread, its more so about arena trap than duggy specifically, but since the two go hand in hand I figured thats fine. The examples I gave I think were more NU orientated since it was NU back then, but the logic and theory remains the same.
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For the record I think dugtrio is banworthy in OU too, but this is a discussion about it in UU not OU.
- Axelgor and DaftKitteh
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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:
I did not go through all the seasons, I just said the ones that were on top of my head. I know there are more, but I'm not going to look through 130 pages of player sign ups from the past 13 seasons just to get a list of players that lack commitment.
Honestly valid, no one can expect you to do that. Like dont get me wrong the amount of effort you've been putting in as host is really admirable, I dont want you to think Im ragging on ya, I just don't agree with the confirmation fee, since it just feels too much like a half-heated sign up fee for some people and not for others
1 minute ago, KaynineXL said:The host gets the pics from discord to update the thread?
If that's how he's going to go about it sure.
Yeah exactly! Its just like posting on the forums but in a specified discord channel for the victory screens in the discord!
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6 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:
Nope. A couple reasons.
The obvious one is just lazyness. It doesn't take long to make an account so with that in mind, I'm not seeing a whole lot of motivation here.
Secondly, a forums account is needed throughout the season. If he/she needs to disclose a time on the thread, a battle or a win/loss, then he/she will need one anyway. If they are not going to do it themselves, then it falls onto me as an extra responbility, and I'm good thanks.
A couple of seasons ago id agree, but for last few psls and wcs we've almost exclusively used discord for sharing screenshots of victories and arranging our battles that I dont think this is an issue anymore
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13 minutes ago, gbwead said:
@Havsha Let me explain the problem in front of us, so we are all the same page. There is a very high correlation between lack of commitment and not signing up yourselves. Here are some examples that I could think of:
- Axoa was signed up by someone else in PSL 4 and refused to play any match.
- Manjume was signed up by someone else in PSL 9 and refused to play any match.
- JuniorPT was signed up by someone else in PSL 13 and got banned.
There are also joked signed ups that I need to look through like:
- imythic who was signed up by someone
- superman who was signed up by MDM
It takes time to filter through all the players getting registered. I don't want alts, fake sign ups, players that lack commitment, etc ending up on the final player list.
The 25k fee is only a small measure to discourage players that lack commitment from signing up. It's not ideal, but at least it will help prevent managers from drafting players that will disregard them completly.
edit: Also, if a player that wants to sign up through someone else does not want to pay the 25k, at the very least find a way to object to the 25k fee like Cristi did. If the player that doesn't sign up himself can't even figure out a way to communicate his refusal to pay 25k, that player should definetly not get added to the sign up list imo.
So in 13 seasons theres been just 3 cases of people signing up for someone else who refuses to play. That's really not bad at all considering the amount of sign ups we get per season. I dont think we ought to be disuading people from signing up (even if they dont have a forum account, and for one reason or another wont make one)
The issue of players refusing to play isnt event exclusive to other people signing up for them, theres so many times people sign up stating "I wont play for x manager" and stuff.
The issue of "joke registrations" isnt fixed with a 25k confirmation fee, people sign up for themselves with no intentions of playing saying things like "dont buy me I'm too busy" or whatever. There's likely more joke sign ups from people signing themselves up than there are people signing up for other people.
[WC 6] PokeMMO World Cup 6 - Player Registration Thread (August 20th, 2023 to September 2nd, 2023)
in Unofficial Events
Posted
Ign: Havsha
Team: Africa