Havsha

Not getting involved in this discussion anymore, but I'll give my final statement I guess. Hitmontop Nidoqueen: Slowbro: Durant: Aerodactyl: Sigilyph:

Okay assuming im completey trash at UU (I'm a queen at uu though, so that might need a lot of creativity and imagination) I still raised a valid concerm, and supported my claims with an argument and calcs, based off that alone, it should be an adequate reason to answer me query. (its not like my post in the thread was a salty rage post, it wasnt like I just lost to a lucario in UU, since it wasnt UU yet. Now if you can read the post and think to yourself "huh, shes crazy, lucario isnt a threat just because it cant be walled and revenged, what is she on about?" then fair enough ignore me. But, I dont think you can really deny that Lucario looks at least on paper a little busted and that the concerns I mentioned werent valid. Im sure a lot of our frustration is misdirected towards the TC, when it should be towards Munya (sorry if you aren't in charge of that munya) or whoever is in charge of the Tier policies, buuut from the outside perspective you all are whowe can appeal to (As you have the people in charge of the tier policies' ear). At the end of the day as little faith we may have in the TC right now, I assure you I have even less faith in the devs, so most of us realise we shouldnt even bother trying to talk to them

Because as a member of the TC you aren't just representing yourself, but the entire competitive community, many of whom would like to actually know you all aren't just doing nothing. Thats fine and all, but the when it takes 5 months to ban something that can pretty clearly be shown through calcs as being busted, then theres a problem. If tiering policy was different, or whatever the reason TC seems slow to act, then this would be fine, but waiting 5 month for what seems to be an obviously problematic pokemon to be banned because you ignored the calcs is dumb. I understand theorymmo can only do so much, but gees. If you know which players play UU and which dont, then you're welcome to only respond to those who play UU or at very least show through their arguements that they have a genuine point, because yeah there are people who don't know what they're talking about at all, which no one expects TC to respond to.

Not gonna lie, but seeing no TC memebers address the calcs was the straw that broke the camel back for me, I wanted to give TC the benefit of the doubt, but come on now, I put in the effort to raise a genuine concern with calcs and a fair arguement, but get nothing back? How am I meant to believe the TC is even discussing anything in private when they don't even answer the quite frankly predicatble concerns raised by the community?

Irrelevant if Lucarios priority espeed or vacuum wave is able to pick up the kill on them, as youve shown FULL hp flygon can survive +2 luc, but if its been chipped at all, lucario just sweeps

Im not convinced ice punch > crunch tbh, but speaking for the physical set Spiritomb needs to be able to land that wisp reliably, as its 2ohko'd by +2 crunch +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 138-162 (45.5 - 53.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (which to be fair is within reason to not miss wisp.) Also typing of Steal and Fight kinda solid vs foul play +2 252 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 92-109 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO (calc surprised me cause im a dummy and forgot how foul play worked for a second) Impish Swamp is blown away by luc after some little chip +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Torkoal too if rocks are up +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 261-308 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Sigi seems prettyy solid ngl I had forgotten it even outsped luc, so probably worth running a sigi more often that I had before Donphan if healthy is good yeah +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 286-339 (74.4 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery but without recovery its still kinda scary maybe im just a coward Buuut alot of what im saying its contingent on it getting +2 first.

I posted stuff about the physical set before, but I'll try reiterate briefly here: SD Set is scary, +2 Espeed can pretty much stop any pokemon from revenge killing it, provided you get the smallest amount of chip on some of them. Calcs and stuff in that thread because im not doing all that again. But, if late game Luc doesn't scare you enough, which it should, there's also its sheer versatility, it can be a special breaker, it can be a physical breaker, both sets have good priority, it gets access to both SD and Nplot, meaning both set can be equally inclined to clean house. That being said, it's not super tanky, whilst steel typing does afford it chances to set up, you still can't click set up vs anything. Also sash users can stop it in its tracks, like any other sweeper. But seeing how UU has no shortage of rocky helm users/hazard stackers the only ones I think worth mentioning are duggy (because arena trap xd) and sigilyph since it doesnt have to worry about hazards. Saw people comparing it to PZ, but its must scarier than pz, since luc doesn't have to worry about revenge killers, and Im pretty certain its a better breaker, with much more versatility. tl;dr its busted.

😳

Flygon has to be full hitpoints to deal with Luc after +2. This is very little chip, and pretty easy to get if you know you're going for luc sweep +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock I've played a few games today with physical sd luc, its kinda busted ngl, half the matches I don't seem to even need to set up, Luc can just clean up, but in cases I did get +2 it just swept. Since late game, anything that could hope to revenge luc loses to +2 priority. I've been running crunch over ice punch, nothings really given it an issue, havent ran into gligar though I do feel like physical is better than the special set, but Ill run more sp lucs tonight. I also found that one of the "better" revengers for Lucs are other Lucs since it can lose the speed tie if its physical vs physical, or special just beats the physical set in a 1v1. But speed ties aren't a reliable solution, so yeah. (scarf luc would be reliable) I also figure scarf metagross would then also just serve as a reliable answe, but I dont know how good scarf meta will be here. Sash Sigi is also a good answer. And finally durant, Im half tempted to run swarm so I dont have to worry about hustle miss /j In conclusion: It's busted.

Well its not just stall that suffers from things like Luc and Zam, other playstyles becomes less viable too, Im not saying it will be the case that Luc is so busted that its going to be considered uber offense, but if it is, its not just *sigh* stalwarts that will suffer. True enough, not an issue at all if you dont actively play the tiers, but for the people that do it could be a month or so of frustration and nuisance. (Perhaps more, as even if its busted the usage may not be super high for alternative reasons, or the TC can do TC things)

Revenge Killers: Arcanine - See above Post Crobat - No rocks, may require trade for LO chip / CC stat drops Azumarill: I stand by banded azu, may require a trade for that cc stat drop/lo damage Scarf Medi: Nope Flygon: Needs to be full Staraptor: Needs to be full or without rocks Mismagius: Considering LO recoil, and CC -1 SpDef, it’s a decent answer, unless luc is running bullet punch Yanmega: Only without rocks and after Lucs used a CC or taken LO recoil Rotom Heat: Needs to be Scarfed and no Stealth Rocks Sigilyph: Needs to be full or perhaps some variant ev spread I dunno Durant: On a side note this is just the physical SD set, Lucario can run sooo many possible sets, that just off my first impression it feels a tad overwhelming to deal with after seeing how much 1 sd can let it do. However, it does suffer from 4mss but I dont think thats enough to stop it being scary

Genuinely wasn’t sure how I felt about Lucario so I’m running some calcs: [I got distracted and this took me longer than I had anticipated so I haven't included Sp Set, yet alone the challenge of not knowing what set Luc you are up against *This is contingent on Lucario being able to get +2, lots of mons that it can set up on can hit it with super effective moves that won’t necessarily kill it, but will damage it to the point that LO recoil can become an issue. Physical Set: Tanks/Walls: Offensive Revenge killers vs Espeed in next popst Soon TM

30 minutes from now