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Everything posted by gbwead

  1. I just lost a duel because of the 60 mins time limit rule. After 20 mins, the duel was over, but because it was 4v5, my opponent had this artificial win condition (because of the time limit rule) that allowed him to win if he survived for 60 mins. So the rule that is designed to prevent endless stalling encouraged my opponent to stall an unwinnable game. I understand the need for a rule to prevent tournaments from lasting forever, but that doesn't mean the rule needs to reduce the game to something as simple as whoever has the most mons would have won. There are many ways to make the 60 mins time limit rule better: 1. Instead of looking first at the number of mons alive and then at the sum of % of hp on these mons, why not look at these two criteria at the same time? The number of mons alive is an arbitrary value that does not really reflect who is the most likely to win. For this reason, the following formula would be better imo: (sum of the HP% of all mons of player 1) x (number of mons alive of player 1) vs (sum of the HP% of all mons of player 2) x (number of mons alive of player 2) I do not see why the number of pokemon alive should be a criteria more important than the % of hp of all mons. There are tons of scenarios where the number of pokemons alive is more important than the % of hp of all mons and there are also tons of scenarios where the % of hp of all mons alive is more important than the number of pokemon alive. Looking at both criteria at the same time rather than one and after the other gives a much better picture of who is the most likely to win in stall matches. 2. At 55 mins, both players could get the option to extend the 60 mins limit for an extra amount of time. In the event, the player that chooses to extend the time limit loses, this player ends up with a big penalty (money penalty, temporary tournament ban, etc.) Temporary tournament bans are already common practice for bad sportmanship on the ladder, so I think it would be more than fair for people that would abuse extensions. 3. The following suggestion is quite complex and requires probably more thoughts, but it can somewhat work imo: (Total dmg inflicted by Player 1 / Total HP recovered by Player 2) x (# of pp left of Player 1) vs (Total dmg inflicted by Player 2 / Total HP recovered by Player 1) x (# of pp left of Player 2) This formula is based on the assumption that, with all the PP used in 60 mins, Player 1 was able to inflict a certain amount of permanent dmg and whatever amount of PP remaining for Player 1 reflects on the amount of permanent dmg Player 1 will be capable of inflicting long term. I do not believe any of these suggestion will be able to predict perfectly who the winner should be long term, but determining the winner based on these suggestions would be more accurate imo.
  2. I want to comment on the hax item nerf. I think that decision is quite bad and reflects very poorly on the game. Affecting all hax items with the same nerf makes little sense since they are so different. Focus Band and Quick Claw are very very very bad. They significantly increases your chances of losing when using these items and that's why these items are unviable on litteraly every single pokemon and in every single tier. No one uses them and the few that do are either too poor to buy better items or too dumb to realize how bad these items are. Focus Band and Quick Claw did not need to get nerfed with a warning message. That's overkill. If the objective of this nerf is for these terribly shitty and worthless hax items to remain playable, the nerf is a failure then because disabling the item entirely would make Focus Band and Quick Claw more viable then displaying to your opponent that you do not hold a Focus Sash, Choice Band, a berry, etc. Removing the unknown aspect of what item is being held is too much. These items hax once every 2625109 full moons, they did not need to get nerfed this way. Keeping them or removing them from the competitive scene entirely is way better than this warning message non sense. King's Rock and Razor Fang are also terrible items, but they can be somewhat viable on Cloyster and really only Cloyster. The warning message for these hax items is not very effective, sure it's a nerf but the haxing effect of what makes the item problematic in the first place is not affected by this nerf at all. The best nerf for King's Rock was to simply take @RysPicz suggestion and removing the hax chances on multi hit moves, so that the flinch chance is a raw 10% on all moves. Please change this hax item nerf to something more appropriate.
  3. When the policy gets updated to reflect all of that, please let us know so we can discuss it (especially the nerf policy in OU).
  4. Team name: gb&dog Player OU: gbwead Player NU: poseidonwrath
  5. I don't think anything is black or white when it comes to pokemon battling. Speed Boost Blaziken has been banned over and over for instance. We all know Blaziken is clearly not broken without Speed Boost and that other Speed Boost users are also not broken. It's the combination of Speed Boost + Blaziken that is the problem. It's pretty much the same thing with Arena Trap. Caterpie with AT is not broken. It's only (thus far) Dugtrio + AT that some people deem problematic. An ability by itself can't really be problematic, it's only when that ability is paired with the right pokemon that an issue may arise. If we give Wonder Guard to Spiritomb, it would make more sense to ban Spiritomb than banning Wonder Guard (which would result in Shedinja being banned as collateral dmg). "Lastly, while most of the pro-ban arguments revolved around the most common user of Arena Trap, Dugtrio, many users also agreed that it was Arena Trap that was at the heart of the problem instead of Dugtrio. On the Dugtrio suspect test ladder back in February, a number of players successfully used Diglett and to a lesser extent Trapinch to fulfill nearly the same role as Dugtrio on teams, showing that the ability is clearly overpowered on any user." This is from the link you just posted. We are not in the same situation in PokeMMO. In the past 3 years, Diglett and Trapinch have not been used successfully to any extent.
  6. I'm not a TC member, but I'll explain why I don't think it's possible to consider AT a problem. We have 3 AT users in MMO: Diglett, Dugtrio and Trapinch. When Gen 5 came out, Dugtrio was quick banned (no teampreview + 100 base atk stat). During that time, Diglett and Trapinch were not played in OU, UU or NU. They were not played at all. When Dugtrio was unbanned, it ended up in OU for a while; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in UU and NU. Then Dugtrio moved down to UU; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in NU. What this means is that AT is hardly an abusable ability without the base stats and movepool to back it up. Diglett and Trapinch are clearly overwhelmingly unviable, unplayed and irrelevant. Therefore, Dugtrio might be a problem, but definetly not AT.
  7. Ban P-Z and then we can talk about P2.
  8. Is this the August usage? That would mean it's like 6 days usage which doesn't mean much, but ok let's look at it anyways. The most important thing to consider here is that 2% of OU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio and 8% of NU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio. This means only one thing: NU players are shit at this game compared to OU players and perhaps they shouldn't get involved in tiering decisions if they are so clueless. I ask a few people about what you said in bold and there is no consensus about what you were trying to say. I personally believe you were trying to say that it's more difficult to remove hazards in NU which mean Dugtrio has less reasons to run sash and is a better position to kill stuff since they won't be at full health. If that is what you were trying to say, then I believe you are simply mistaken. Hazard control is pretty decent in NU with mons like Golbat, Mantine, Rotom, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Golem, Serperior, Cryogonal, etc. I mean cmon, you know all of them, so why do you believe they are less effective than OU hazard remover. I disagree with most of what is said here. Reuniclus and Espeon are extremely different. Why is Dugtrio supposed to enbable Reuniclus at all? Is Dugtrio supposed to enable Psychic types? Dugtrio enables Togekiss btw by removing Ttar, Magnezone et sometimes Jolteon. First of all, I think NU players are trash compared to OU players, so I think NU usage doesn't really show what is viable in NU. For the record, Volcarona and Ttar are both top used mons; Dugtrio traps both. Dugtrio never traps without any effort at all. Unless your opponent is braindead - which is more likely in NU than OU - you will always have to make some plays or take some risks in order for Dugtrio to come on the field. I already adressed what I think about CB/Scarf/Sash Dugtrio, so I'm not going to do that again. Why can Skarmory and Ferro afford to run Shed Shell, but Nidoqueen can't afford it? Skarmory and Ferro would prefer running Rocky Helmet or Leftovers over Shed Shell and many players choose to play these items anyways at the risk of getting trapped. Magnezone traps one of these steel mons, but some people run multiple steel types just like some players run multiple weaknesses to Dugtrio. Sure Arena Trap can trap more things in general than Magnet Pull, but that doesn't change much in regard to teams that stack mons weak to Dugtrio in NU, these teams are not super viable even if Dugtrio wasn't around. If we didn't have Team Preview, I would agree. However, in MMO, we know in advance we are facing Dugtrio and the risks that comes with bringing on the field a mon that can be trapped. When in comes to uncompetitiveness, there is a huge gap between Arena Trap without team preview and Arena Trap with team preview. Arena Trap remains quite uncompetitive, but in order to bring out the most cancer out of Arena Trap, Arena Trap users need to be good as well. Trapinch and Diglett also have access to Arena Trap and would never be considered banworthy. Dugtrio has much better stats than them, but even with better stats, it's still not great (even by NU standards). Speed doesn't mean that much when Dugtrio is extremely weak, doesn't hit really hard and has a poor movepool. Its trapping options are therefore pretty limited.
  9. Ok good, if the Dugtrio/Arena Trap discussion is not about NU specifically, but all tiers I understand. I still don't think it is banworthy, but I respect the tiering consistency.
  10. I understand that Dugtrio is capable of trapping important mons like the ones you pointed out (Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc.). What I want to understand is how is trapping mons like Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc. more banworthy than trapping mons like Ttar, Infernape, Volcarona, Magnezone, etc. For me, it's pretty much the same thing.
  11. I feel people don't realise the terrible precedent banning Dugtrio or Arena Trap in NU would set. Is there a reliable NU viability list out there that we can all use as a reference point? People list so many pokemon being weak to Dugtrio and I can't help but wonder what kind of metagame they are playing. Are they really playing 6 mons weak to ground or with low defense in their teams? Who plays Manectric, Electivire, Blaziken, Magmortar and Drapion together. Let's be real, most teams, the ones that are decent, do not carry more than 1 or 2 mons weak to Dugtrio. And that's not because they are afraid of Dugtrio, it's because they simply shouldn't overlap weaknesses. Some may say that if Dugtrio can successfully trap 1 pokemon, that means Dugtrio is cancer, but that's the same cancer that we see in OU and UU. OU and UU players do not carry 6 mons weak to Dugtrio, they play no more than 1 or 2 mons weak to Dugtrio just like NU players. I really hate the idea that NU needs some special treatment and tiering should be done differently there. A lot of people point out that usage or win rate are not good metrics to determine if a pokemon is banworthy or not. I don't really disagree with that, but why then present Dugtrio as this huge meta defining threat with only usage to backup that statement. I'm sorry but usage in the case of Dugtrio doesn't show that the mon is viable or meta defining. The reason why Dugtrio is played so much is because Dugtrio is a popular mon and even people that hate Dugtrio play it. With Team Preview and a 80 base attack, Dugtrio is really not that good and that's the reason it has fallen to NU. And it would fall to Untiered if it wasn't for the fact that NU needs Dugtrio. The tier has been in a terrible state for years because of all the unstability caused the crazy usage cycles. A Pokemon like Dugtrio provides a lot of much needed stability to the players thanks to its uncompetitive ability. In a chaotic metagame constantly shaken up, Dugtrio's cancer simplifies games and that's what players want (not me, I don't play Dugtrio in NU). Dugtrio's utilities and drawbacks are clear. Perhaps the issue is simply that people love to hate Arena Trap and that's understandable, but clearly not enough for a ban imo.
  12. Typhlosion was not NU yet, so its usage didn't really drop because of Dugtrio. As for Manectric, it always sucked. Bad win rate and for some reason it gained usage lately. Electivire win rate was also always pretty bad, so I'm not sure Dugtrio is responsible for it being meh.
  13. Wobbufet's nerf was also controversial. It was mostly because of Tickle which allowed Wobbuffet to reduce the def of any target making them vulnerable to pursuit trapping or Dugtrio.
  14. Apparently, you have over 900 NU mons. Perhaps you should simply ditch all your Spinda when teambuilding and play mons bulky enough to be viable in the first place, not only against Dugtrio, but anything really. Apparently, you missed my response to your flawed analysis on Dugtrio:
  15. I never tried to nerf Garchomp, I tried to get it banned. Nerfing a mon because it is arguably problematic in a lower tier is utterly idiotic and should never be considered. Imagine if we did that all the time. That would mean we would nerf Durant instead of banning it from NU which mean Durant would therefore suck in UU for no reason. We could also remove Extreme Speed from Lucario and just drop it in UU which would mean ruining Lucario for OU. This is just messed up and wrong. People really need to stop entertaining these kind of options.
  16. Why is Dugtrio unacceptable in NU specifically, but totally fine in UU/OU?
  18. All of this is so wrong, @pachima. Sure, let's go for that arbitrary 4% usage. Not 4.36% which is the reference point for the past 7 years. Let's go with 4% usage in order for Magmortar and Omastar to sneak into your analysis. First of all, let's get something clear. Sash Dugtrio is the most viable set on Dugtrio and usage reflects that. Please stop it with the Choice Band bullshit. It's playable, but it's definetly not what the main concern when it comes to Dugtrio in NU. Let's look at your list for Choice Band. There isn't a single pokemon on that list that let Dugtrio come in for free, so it's for Dugtrio to trap these mons it is absolutely not as effortless as you make it seem. Then there is a big issue. There should be an asterix next to most of these mons and some should straight up not appear here at all: Clefable isn't necessarily going to sit there passively and do nothing to retaliate agaisnt Dugtrio. Some Calm Clefable run Cosmic Power and, since it's impossible for that set to kill anything without set up first, this means Dugtrio CB can't RK this Clefable. It may double switch into it or require some u-turn/volt switch/teleport support in order to come in play, but it certainly doesn't come in for free. There is also Modest Clefable which simply kill Dugtrio with Ice Beam. And then we have Bold Clefable that doesn't care about Dugtrio at all. So please put a huge asterix next to Clefable. Zoroark doesn't necessarily fear Dugtrio, since you may not know you are facing a Zoroark. Some Zoroark are played with Choice Scarf or Sash and are extremely close to a guaranteed OHKO on Dugtrio (any prior dmg would be enough). In the case of Choice Scarf, the flinch factor from Dark Pulse adds on top of the potential OHKO on Dugtrio. Zoroak also has access to U-turn which can help it avoid gettign trapped in the first place and may also run Sucker Punch which can OHKO Dugtrio if Life Orb with a lot of investment in Atk. U-turn and Sucker Punch are not super common, but they have been played more in July tho. Anyhow, big asterix as well for Zoroark. Steelix just doesn't give a crap about Dugtrio and should just be removed from your list. Houndoom is kind of in a similar spot as Zoroak. The main difference is that it's less common to see a Sash or Choice Scarf Houndoom, but those definetly exist. Some play Substitute or Sucker Punch (which does not kill), but it's still something to watch out for. So, I agree that Houndoom should be listed without any asterix I guess. Drapion, I agree. Typhlosion, there is a decent amount of Typhlosion that are played Choice Scarf, so for sure there need to be an asterix there. Golem has way too much going for it against Dugtrio. It has Sturdy so prior dmg is required. Golem is commonly played with Custap berry, so the amount of prior dmg has to be limited. If the plan is to trap Golem in Custap Range with Sucker Punch, that means Dugtrio will be locked on Sucker Punch which is both sad and terrible. Golem also has access to Sucker Punch, so Dugtrio can't come in play against Golem with little HP and trap it. Golem also has access to Rapid Spin (2 required, so quite unlikely) which could potentially prevent Dugtrio from Traping it. Anyhow, there need to be a huge asterix next to Golem if you want to list it imo. Nidoqueen, sure. Gallade is commonly played with Choice Scarf, so it definetly isn't trapped that easily. I was also surprised to find out that there is a small portion of Gallade that are also played with Sash, so that would also help against Dugtrio. Shadow Sneak can be interesting if Dugtrio is quite low. If Gallade has already done SD, Dugtrio can't revenge kill it since Shadow Sneak Life Orb will OHKO Dugtrio. Some Gallade are also played with Substitute or Bulk Up which also makes it hard for Dugtrio to trap it. Imo, there need to be a big asterix next to Gallade. Espeon is extremely common with Choice Scarf, so Dugtrio won't be able to trap all of them. Some are also played with Substitute, so it won't necessarily be easy for Dugtrio to trap it. There need to be an asterix for Espeon as well. Manectric just sucks ass. Even if 60% of Manectric are played with Choice Scarf, Overheat doesn't even kill Dugtrio. It deserves to get trapped, so no asterix. Pikachu has a very decent chance of killing a full HP Dugtrio with Extreme Speed. So it should not be listed at all. Magmortar and Omastar were below the 4.36% reference point, so you should not list them at all, but they would still need some asterix since CB Dugtrio doesn't RK a set up Omastar and will lose to any Omastar with Focus Sash and Dugtrio will also lose to Magmortar. In summary, you list for CB Dugtrio should look like this imo: Considering Dugtrio needs either a good amount of prediction or support to trap these, I simply can't see CB Dugtrio as a significant issue in NU. Out of the 39 mons in NU (June), 4 of them will lose to Dugtrio in the event they get trapped for free and 6 more maybe (not necessarily a good gamble) will lose to Dugtrio. Now, lets look at your list for Choice Scarf: I don't have any issue with your Choice Scarf list (it's underwhelming as it should be), except for the fact that Pikachu and Magmortar should not be listed at all for reasons I already explained. Let's look at the main Dugtrio, the set people should care about. Bold part is utter bullshit for the record. The main reason why hazards should be disregarded is because most of the time Sash Dugtrio is the one setting up rocks itself, so the mon Dugtrio is trapping didn't come into the Rocks. I don't know what you have been smoking or in what era you live, but Screech Dugtrio has not been played since 2016. So, no Dugtrio doesn't Trap + kill Venusaur, no it doesn't Trap Clefable, just remove them from the list entirely. Zoroark, like I mentionned earlier can be played Choice Scarf and would just win agaisnt Sash Dugtrio since Eq + Sucker Punch from Dugtrio doesn't kill it. There is also the Sucker Punch and U-turn variants that you mentionned. In all cases, asterix next to Zoroark please. Houndoom, I agree. Drapion, I agree. To be honest, it's a good thing that a cancer mon like Drapion gets trapped by another cancer mon, it's the closest thing we get to karma in PokeMMO. Typhlosion, I agree. Golem, this deserves an asterix. Sturdy/Custap Berry can be an issue since EQ may put Golem in Custap range. Golem also has access to Sucker Punch as mentionned earlier. Nidoqueen, I agree. Espeon, I agree. The main difference is that Dugtrio can really used Sucker Punch properly when it isn't locked, so Espeon (even if Scarf) doesn't stand a chance. Manectric, I agree. Pikachu, well at least here, Pikachu is doomed vs Dugtrio since Extreme Speed can't break the Focus Sash. Dugtrio can't trap Pikachu directly tho because of Fake Out tho which mean the only possible way for Dugtrio to Trap and kill Pikachu is to switch into an electric move or revenge killign Pikachu. That deserves an asterix imo. Omastar, should not have been listed. Magmortar, should not have been listed. Even if your lists were accurate (which they are absolutely not imo), Dugtrio doesn't trap anything on these lists efortlessly. According to you, there are 42 mons above 4% usage. You listed 14 mons on your first inaccurate list. You listed 7 mons on your second inaccurate list. You then listed 13 mons on your third inaccurate list. That's an average of 11.3 mons per list which is below one third of 42 mons in NU, meaning 14 mons. There are 39 mons above the 4.36% reference point that has been used forever. In my updated versions of your lists, the average mons getting trapped would be 6 mons which is also below one third of the 39 mons in NU, meaning below 13 mons. So, there is no universe where your summary statement above is remotely true. Tbh, even thought Focus Sash Dugtrio can accomplish more compared to locked sets imo, I still don't think Dugtrio is more cancerous in NU than it is in other tiers. That's just how Dugtrio is. It traps Ttar, Magnezone, Volcarona, Tentacruel, Jolteon, Excadrill, Infernape, Darmanitan, Breloom, Heracross, Empoleon, Lanturn, Gigalith, Arcanine, Electrode, Bisharp, etc. You mentionned earlier that you think Dugtrio is unhealthy in all tiers and that may be true, but that certainly doesn't mean NU should get some special treatment. Dugtrio should be banned in all tiers or in none imo.
  19. You are correct If you talk king's rock represent a big part of wins, you're talking that less players lose with it If you're not replying to me, who is "you" refering to in your reply to my post.
  20. I never said or implied that.
  21. The item/nature usage shown is only from won games. It means that Cloyster wins 48% of its games and,out of those won games, Cloyster was played 28% of the time with King's Rock. We don't have access to the item/nature usage of lost games, so there is no way to know if King's Rock makes Cloyster better or worse.
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