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Tier Council
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About gbwead

  • Birthday 10/20/1991

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  1. Why are people voting for quick standard style when new slow style seems to provide much more drama and excitement?
  2. That's not really the point. Doubles is more accessible since you can play your OU mons there. Half the players in those Doubles tournaments are just playing their OU rain team. That doesn't mean there are more Doubles players, just that the tournaments seats get taken faster.
  3. Managers need to pick a tier. Doubles is not a tier. Therefore, they can't choose Doubles.
  4. I'm curious. What did you have in mind regarding this?
  5. I wish to use me veto on structure B and C because I see showdown tiers in those. There is a poll option on the forum btw. I think it's better to use that because otherwise you won't be able to know who is voting for what.
  6. We are talking about ice beam revenge killers because you brought it up!! So against Yache Berry Garchomp, what's wrong with using a bulky ice beam user and then revenge killing with another ice beam user? In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how KINGDRA is an Ice Beam revenge killer when it doesn't need Ice Beam to revenge kill!! In that scenario, YOUR SCENARIO, explain to me how P2 Ice Beam is a valid revenge killer? Which bulky pokemon breaks the Yache Berry of Garchomp then? Milotic. So if you are running P2 + Milotic as physical walls and Garchomp kills the first one and then the second one gets hit by a +2 EQ, it should be more than obvious that Garchomp is broken af!!!! That means Milotic is dead and that p2 a slow mon is below 50%! In what universe can you see this as acceptable? It just isn't. Scarf Salamence and Scarf Kingdra are utter garbage. We both know you never played such garbage in the past and probably never will because you know damn well it's only used in trashy counter team with little general use. You're just saying these things are playable as a counter argument, but even the Tangrowth mentioned by Bluebreath is more viable than these two shit mons. We will never find common ground if when I bring up Starmie as a Conkeldurr check, suddenly Conkeldurr transforms into a 0.0001% usage Careful set bulk up with Tpunch/Payback or when we talk Garchomp checks, suddenly Scarf Kingdra becomes a casual check that everybody knows and run. I have deliberately decided to only talk about ONE of the many available sets of Garchomp in order to get the discussion going and not go in 10 different directions at once. All you do is the exact opposite in an attempt to confuse people with your deluded vision of OU where Safeguard Volcarona, Conkeldurr Careful and Scarf Kingdra are everywhere.
  7. It's been 6 months already and I have seen/played enough OU to determine that Scarf Mence and Scarf Kingdra is indeed garbage. Playing these mons in our current meta will always be more of detriment than anything else and if Garchomp forces you to play this garbage, it needs to be banned asap. We are way over the adaptation time, it's time to face the facts and Garchomp needs to be banned. Starmie is the only Ice Beam revenge killer. Kingdra scarf is not a thing. Even if it was a thing, it still wouldn't be an Ice Beam revenge killer because Kingdra can use Draco Meteor!!!
  8. This is true. Bulky Wil-O-Wisp Rotom still lose the 1v1 and so does the trick variant. A destiny bond user would be more effective because at least Garchomp would be dead. A +2 burned Garchomp is just a regular Garchomp at nearly full health in a 6v5 duel. A Scarf Garchomp is not even a bad thing, especially in a 6v5 duel. Weavile is not super viable in OU right now and usage shows this. This is true. I tried this. I does beat Garchomp. However, that set is just not good. P2 is not even OU by usage and crippling P2 with Reflect doesn't help its case at all. Once again, this is a pokemon with low viability in OU. It can be quite useful still, but the drawbacks are pretty big and that's why it got no usage in our meta. I'm talking exclusively about a variant that includes a fire move, so Skarmory simply doesn't work. Like I said, the variant we are talking about includes a fire move, so Ferrothorn doesn't work. Even if there was no fire move, Ferrothorn would still lose. I can understand the use of P2, Weavile and Bronzong to some extent. But Slowbro, just no. This is not viable at all and even it still loses to the Yache Berry variant I am talking about. Tangrowth is hardly viable in OU, especially without recovery options. Umbreon works. Mamoswine is also not OU by usage. It struggled too much in the tier against Scizor and Conkeldurr. Now it also has to deal with Rotom, so Mamoswine is not super viable as well. Ya. Gliscor Rocky Helmet dents it. It doesn't beat it. It dents it. Hippowdown also will lose that match up. It can try to phase it out at the cost of its own health, but that's it. I think Hippowdon curse could work, but I have not seen one yet, just like I have not seen a Tangrowth or Slowbro yet. You don't need Stone Edge. Gyarados only wins against Garchomp if it intimidates Garchomp in a 1v1. Realistically, for this to happen, Gyarados needs to switch into Garchomp or revenge kill it. This means Garchomp could already be at +2. If Gyarados is already on the field and didn't DD yet, Garchomp can choose to revenge kill it. That's what's so ridiculous. If Gyarados is good agaisnt Garchomp, Garchomp should not be able to revenge kill it and yet it can. Cofagrigus works against the variant I am talking about. So to summarize, the only OU viable mons that can come on top against the Yache SD set are Mandibuzz, Umbreon and Cofagrigus. The rest is either not viable in OU or just mediocre at handling Garchomp. So 4MSS is not really a thing with the variant I mentioned when Garchomp literally destroy everything except for the 3 mons listed above. And 2 of those 3 mons, will stop Garchomp no matter the set. So 4MSS really only applies to the match up against Cofagrigus. And at this point, with all the complains about Conkeldurr, I am extremely surprised people are just okay with adding Garchomp to the list of things Cofagrigus needs to handle, as if it didn't have enough on its plate already. I am trying to get Garchomp banned as Uber Offensive, but this just stinks unhealthiness as well. About the revenge killers you listed: 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 88-105 (48 - 57.3%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO That is a lot of chip damage required for Scizor to revenge kill. Starmie is probably the best revenge killer. Depending on the item it is holding, it will need more or less chip dmg. Iirc, Spec Starmie needs at least 20% chip dmg in order to guarantee the KO. This is feasible, but there is a lot of downfall is being locked too. Gengar is not really in a great spot against Garchomp since it doesn't hurt Garchomp that hard: 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 101-121 (55.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 45% chip dmg is required to guarantee the KO here. Infernape is pretty similar to Starmie. Depending on the item it is holding, it will need more or less chip dmg. Against Choice Band Ape Close Combat, 25% prior chip dmg needs to be inflicted to Chomp to guarantee the KO. Very feasible again, but there is the issue of being locked and the issue of Garchomp being capable of OHKO Infernape without even having go to +2. Scarfers. Well in our meta, there aren't that many scarfers that good good against Garchomp. We have Hydreigon and Cloyster. That's pretty much it. Salamence scarf is not a thing in our meta. Scarf Darmanitan can't do much. Scarf Magnezone is ridiculous against Garchomp, 3HKO with Flash Cannon. Togekiss Scarf is okay thanks to the flinch chance, but that just stinks desperation. Kingdra under Rain needs to be mentioned because one of the most potent revenge killers. However, the amount of things that can truly "handle" Garchomp pales in comparison to what Garchomp is capable of destroying. It's not really setting up for free. When you look at the revenge killers you listed, some of them need prior chip dmg in order to get the ko. In our current meta, a lot of mons do not deal enough chip dmg on the SD turn. Garchomp typing is also a huge asset because it allows it to punish volt switch users so heavily. 1 volt switch as a scarf Rotom or Magnezone can mean your end instantly. 1 rock move locked TTar is just as bad. People complained about how Dugtrio was taking out Electric and Rock types for Togekiss to sweep, but Garchomp is far worse than Dugtrio. It doesn't need to trap Electric or Rock types, it punishes them so hard you will be in constant fear of using these moves, this is far worse than getting trapped by Dugtrio. That also speaks to the unhealthy nature of Garchomp. Chip dmg also applies to everything, not only Garchomp. And if you include chip dmg as a factor against everything that Garchomp face, Garchomp can get kills without even needing to use SD. This means the fear factor against Garchomp can be quite huge. As a 80% Blissey, what do you do against Garchomp? If Garchomp does SD and you do Ice Beam (if you even have Ice Beam), then you didn't deal enough chip dmg for Gengar or Scizor to revenge kill. A not Banded Infernape will also not be able to KO chomp. So you basically lose 2 pokemons and Garchomp will still be alive, heavily chipped but still alive. That's a huge problem. Chip dmg goes both ways, not just Garchomp way. As Tentacruel vs Garchomp, what do you do? Chip it a little or switch out hoping in does EQ on your Skarmory. Because if you decide to switch out and Garchomp does SD, that Skarmory is in a tough spot.
  9. Why are you giving me Cloyster and Hydreigon as checks to Garchomp when you are the one that wanted to talk about ICE BEAMER checks!!!!??? Mandibuzz is a counter, why are you mentioning it as if it was a check? It's not relevant at at all. Did I post calcs of Cofagrigus as a Conkeldurr Bulky check? Ofc not. There is no point in doing that... Scarf Mence is not a thing. Scarf Kingdra is not a thing. And your Conkeldurr calcs are not a thing as well. 252 HP/252 Spdef/252 Speed Conkeldurr. Because you are running Scarf Garchomp as you ultime solution to everything including an opponent's Garchomp!! The only pokemon that can "kill it with something else with Ice Beam" is called Starmie!!! Which is why I chose Starmie as an example!!
  10. I don't need to know speed the Conk user is using since 252 speed Conkeldurr is hardly a thing. Hippowdon counters Conkeldurr to a very reasonable extent. Also, keep in mind that even if you run full speed Conkeldurr, you still do not have a guaranteed 2HKO and you still need to predict properly. Also, a Conkeldurr with no bulk that manages to go through a Rocky Helmet Hippo is probably on the verge of death. It's not ideal, but like I said it's good enough considering the unlikeliness of this scenario happening in our current meta. I have played a shit ton of Hippo Rocky Helmet to stop Conk and it's very solid from my experience. That logic is completely flawed. Imo, yes, SD Yache set is the best set , but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the fact that there are other sets. If you only prepare for that set, then when you send your Cofagrigus or Bold Rotom against Garchomp, you need to be prepare to click that forfeit button if that Garchomp is holding a Lum Berry or hides behind a sub. No! "Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch." This is not as threatening and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do not give a shit about that set. "Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants." I hope you are kidding if you think this is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr. I have seen this before in action. It's complete gimmicky matchup fishing garbage. There are issues with every Conkeldurr sets and these issues are considerably more numerous and important than the issues that face the Garchomp Yache set. No. This is entirely different. We are talking about checks here. The definition of a check is as follows: "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Fast check example: For Conkeldurr For Garchomp Bulky check example: For Conkeldurr For Garchomp Whether we are talking about faster checks or bulkier checks, in both cases, the Conkeldurr check is always better left off after doing it's job than the Garchomp check and there is less risk involved. Let's say you do not have a free switch. What then happens to Garchomp and Conkeldurr checks? Fast check example: For Conkeldurr For Garchomp Bulky check example: For Conkeldurr For Garchomp Once again, checking Conkeldurr is significantly easier to checking Garchomp. So you choose to only prepare for Yache Berry Garchomp because all other sets of Garchomp are inferior. But Conkeldurr, you feel the need to prepare for the Flame Orb sets, the Bulk up Rock slide set, the bulk up ice punch set, the bulk up payback set, etc. I'm sorry but if this is how you perceive the OU meta, there is no point in continuing this discussion because clearly we do not have the same priorities at all.
  11. To this day, I still haven't faced a single 252 speed Conk. Imo, that is possibly the least viable conk possible. However, Hippo doesn't need to counter every single Conkeldurr set, it just needs to stop the vast majority of Conks and it does just that. For instance, I have seen some conks run some weird ev spreads with Stone Edge + Bulk Up or a random toxic just to beat Cofagrigus. That doesn't take anything from Cofagrigus itself as a great counter. It just means the player with Conk is willing to sacrifice a lot of Conk's viability and that's a good thing. You're giving me 10 different sets here. When I'm talking about Garchomp, I'm talking about one single set. I'm not saying Garchomp and Conkeldurr are not versatile, but there is an undeniable difference when you need 10 sets in order to accomplish what Garchomp can do with only 1 or 2 sets. However, if you are worried about these bulk sets with coverage issues, you can simply pair up the checks together to form a defensive core. Chandelure + Gliscor. Tentacruel + Salamence. Don't run Psyshock on Reuniclus, it's the least popular option already. None of these mons are actually bad or mons you would want to avoid playing. They are incredibly viable anyways. Most of the time tho, these checks by themselves will be enough to beat the regular Flame Orb set.
  12. At this point, I hope everyone is aware that Hippo should run speed investment, so yes it is a very solid Conkeldurr counter. A counter that people have played before and still play today. The most well known checks to Conkeldurr would be Gengar, Starmie, Chandelure, Reuniclus, Salamence, Gliscor and Togekiss. Keep in mind that nearly all of those are also capable of switching into Conkeldurr on the right prediction. Garchomp doesn't have as many checks and they certainly will never be able to afford switching into a Dragon Claw.
  13. I addressed this many times and I will do so again. Conkeldurr is not on the same level of Garchomp. Conkeldurr has few checks indeed. But even with few checks, it still got a very large amount of checks compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr with only 1 stab, poor speed, less bulk (flame orb hurts its bulk even more), less resistances and no immunity is so easy to revenge kill or check compared to Garchomp. Conkeldurr also has much stronger counters in Cofagrigus and Hippowdon which are incredibly more viable than Mandibuzz and Umbreon.
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