RysPicz

7450

It's time. I would like to discuss a potential Dugtrio ban from NU under uber support characteristics. There's a specific reason why Dugtrio was banned to ubers in several different metagames which rolled through PokeMMO. It's signature ability, Arena Trap, which allows it to trap and effectively remove multiple mons in the NU tier. Since I'm a lazy bum and I took part in multiple Dugtrio discussions over the course of many years, I'm gonna go ahead and just re-post what I already wrote long ago. 1. The centralization Metagame with Dugtrio is weird, least to say. CB Blazikens are almost never seen anymore, same for specs Houndoom. Any CB locked thunderpunch, specs locked Volt Switch/ TBolt is usually as good as dead with this thing around. It limits the teambuilding a lot, preventing pokes that naturally would hold CB from doing this. Teams are specifically built to avoid being trapped by that. For a long time I thought it's the necessary evil due to it's ability to remove the some special walls with sub reversal but now the CB (and even scarf!) set became much more popular and started to take out multiple mons with it's STAB EQ and coverage moves. To make things even worse, Dugtrio has access to Memento which makes it possible to switch in, set it's rocks and then cripple a mon with memento to allow a setup sweeper to just win the game. 2. The speed Dugtrio is in an awesome speed tier, allowing it to outspeed whole NU except some scarf users and speed ties with Sceptile. This makes it's job easier than ever- it's usually bulky enough to tank a weak attack from a wall (for example, Nidoqueen) or even something like HP ice from Manectric and just KO the mon back. Literally every non-flying or levitate poke takes chunks from STAB EQ/ Stone Edge/ Sucker Punch if it's a choice-locked Rotom or something like this. 3. Tier without Dugtrio We will finally be able to use pokes like CB Blaziken, Specs Doom, maybe Magneton and hell knows how many more. A lot of sets will finally see the daylight. 4. Diglett...? All in all, I'm all up in favour to get rid of this thing under support characteristics.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1380334072-v387zxppnx2mp8sv8sudipu2xk8pmnepw We're back

Just give up Huar, ignore him. It's like talking to a wall. You're a 400elo nab that has no idea about the game in his eyes, despite the multitude of your competitive accolades. He lives in his own world, let him be. At this point I honestly believe the discussion is pointless since we got a confirmation that changes are coming. What next should we focus on? I suggest Dugtrio or Quick Claw.

The problem with finding a replay is the fact, that you cannot share a replay from matchmaking. More experienced, skilled players who play in tournaments prefer to rely on their skills so we won't have many replays from tournaments to further proof of how idiotic those items are (although I do agree that the small snip of the battle logs isn't proof enough).

The savior

gg Takens, that was some intense match

Playing vs @Takens in 15 minutes.

Munyu, how many times do we have to repeat this... Usage/ winrate does not mean that something is broken, unhealthy, centralizing, offensive uber and so on. Dugtrio's sole presence impacts NU teambuilding on a massive scale and that alone is reason enough to ban it. If one mon's presence prevents the tier's versatility, then it really should vanish as soon as possible. Maybe when I'll get bored I'll pour my old posts about how idiotic Dugtrio is into this thread. Although first things first, I'd rather see King's Rock and Razor Fang nerfed, small steps, one at the time.

I'm so tired of discussing Dugtrio/AT over, and over, and over again. I've done it so many times I already lost count. Through many years, not much has changed with this mon, it's cancer wherever it appears. Just ban it. I really don't want to repeat what I already said multiple times in the past about this pokemon.

I do like that kind of response a lot. Any clues when we could expect those changes?

It appears like you have not read the thread at all or only read the posts that support your claim. I really do not want to repeat what others said about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth. I've been tracking this thread ever since it was created and at this point I will just start repeating what was already said. Sorry, but are you actually serious right now? My team is bad, because a pokemon that in normal game circumstances is a clear counter for Cloyster, gets RNG'd because of a held item? It's like saying that my team is bad because I lost my Volcarona due to a crit. Togekiss actually has counters which are on the high usage table. I believe Suigin has explained this comparisment somewhere inbetween of caioxlive13's rambling. Unfortunately, it's King's Rock that is the problem. Not Cloyster. Take King's Rock away- you have a perfectly good mon that has it's checks and counters. Leave King's rock and you will start facing what I did in OU- beat up + icicle spear weavile attempting to flinch it's way through physical walls such as Skarmory. Very skillful.

Just ignore him gb. If someone makes almost 100 posts in a 10-page thread then you can see that he's senslessly rambling from the distance. Not all people are capable of actually discussing something by providing reasonable, convincing arguments. Well he is not exactly derailing the thread. He is attempting to defend king's rock but his arguments bear no weight as they have absolutely no sense, and everyone else who disagrees with him is called a "wall player". I guess people like him were the reason why tier council existed- so people with knowledge, skills and experience, can discuss what can be done to eliminate potential overpowered threats. Kinda shame that TC has no power here to make a clear stand and simply get rid of this item...

I totally agree. But getting rid of King's Rock is just the stepping stone for the changes that we desperately need (also remember that there is one more item that can cause flinches, I believe razor claw or something like that), which also include evasion-boosting abilities, bright powder, quick claw, dugtrio and hell knows how much more. But for now, one thing at a time- let's actually start with something and get rid of what bothers us the most.

Happening in 15 minutes