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Tier Council
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Everything posted by DoubleJ

  1. I think this is a great post supporting why practice and observation are so important in this decision. Thanks. 1. There are better sets than Scarf, yes. 2. I didn't say it was a ohko. 3. You just said scarf was bad, so trick probably does cripple it. 4. Good bulk and Technician Mach is pretty decent. 5. Nothing that I said was not true, Durant has seen increased usage. Superpower still hits Rotom pretty dang good. 80% accuracy better than whatever Rock Slide calcs to be (math is hard)
  2. Are you saying that both Porygon2 and Lucario should be banned?
  3. Hax items are a staff and developer issue, and unfortunately not a problem for TC. Would need to continue the conversation in the suggestion thread probably.
  4. So one significant change is that its previous pairing with Wobbu before, along with its base 100 attack, made it broken. The old trap rain core was pretty impressive. Now with a Wobbu nerf on shadow tag, there is an assumption that Dugtrio's effect won't be as great. @gbwead but first proven to be banworthy.
  5. Your argument is that Dugtrio is now an Uber with base 100 attack. Why ban and not just reverse this change? What does this adjustment do to propel it to S class or above? Thinking back, has there been enough meta change to warrant reintroduction of base 100 attack Dugtrio?
  6. So what I'm reading is a lot of frustration regarding the TC's release of Lucario, as well as several community members feeling like they aren't being heard or listened to. I'd like to address each of these 1-by-1 from my perspective as a TC member. 1. Lucario Several months ago Lucario dropped below OU usage cut-offs and the Tier Council reconsidered its status as BL1 (banned from UU). We looked at the changes the tier has made since it was first made BL1 several years ago, these changes including the introduction of Eviolite, Gen 8 movesets, and new Pokemon (Johto). With these changes we felt comfortable testing Lucario, and a vote was held with approval by the TC. The decision was then made public, but before the game was updated, Lucario's usage rose above the cut-off and it remained OU. Discussion at that time was reviewed and we did witness a few community members arguing against Lucario coming down. Calcs were provided, but despite this, the TC felt that practice and observation was needed to fully consider Lucario in UU. Fast forward to this season, and Lucario once again fell below the cut-off and the TC made the decision to move forward with our decision to release it from BL1. A discussion thread has been opened and there is little discussion unfortunately. Respect to @Havsha for providing a sound argument, but we as a TC have not yet come to a consensus on Lucario's status in UU. This is being discussed daily. 2. Community Input This is certainly a grey area and we as TC members have little control on the decision making algorithm. Our purpose is to interact with community, discuss amongst ourselves, and then vote. As of right now, I agree that we do a poor job interacting with the community. If you want the community to have a vote, then that's a discussion with staff.
  7. Did you mean to start this event like 30 minutes ago?
  8. Usage this early in the "season" isn't indicative of where we will be in say, 1 month from now. While Lucario certainly has the highest usage (~37%) and the highest win percentage (~58%) in the tier, glancing at other tiers shows similar results: NU Blaziken has ~35% usage and ~56% win percentage; OU Garchomp has a ridiculous ~44% usage and ~52% win percentage; and Doubles (kek) Tyranitar has ~37% usage and ~57% win percentage. This early in the season, the best mons will have similar results as players are still adjusting to the meta. We can't merely glance at Lucario right now and say it's outright broken just by usage and win percentage alone, nor can we look at the other top mons and say "they're broken too, let's ban 'em." Thus far in my assessment, Lucario has looked like a highly effective wallbreaker and one that should be considered on most teams. Glancing at tournament play and in my own practice through matchmaking, it's hard for me to really say Lucario should be "quick bannned." It looks really good, but it is not sweeping left and right with no checks or counters. Players seem to be finding ways to slow it down and that's pretty exciting.
  9. Thread seems dead. Guess Lucario is fitting in well πŸ˜ƒ
  10. @gbwead prove to me it wasn't already
  11. Hey guys, at least he's putting in the work. Y'all know you're gonna cop his sets = )
  12. With the successful introduction of Porygon-Z to the Underused Tier this past season, the PokeMMO TC has continued to re-evaluate the current UU BL list and we have near unanimously voted to suspect test Lucario for the upcoming season, as it now has low enough usage to be considered for UU. The tier council recognizes that Lucario is an impressive offensive powerhouse, one that is able to break walls and sweep with physical, special, or even mixed sets. It has powerful STAB moves, multiple priority options, and can even be a reliable Choice Scarf user as well. Despite all this, we believe that the Underused tier has a unique variety of walls that in theory could check Lucario effectively. Crobat having already high usage in the tier, would make for the most likely check to most sets, fearing only a +2 Extremespeed after chip damage or a predicted Ice Punch/Psychic. While boasting good offensive typing, Lucario does not handle STAB Brave Bird incredibly well. While no one Pokemon can stop everything Lucario can do, a wide range of walls exist that can slow it down and force it to have pretty significant 4MSS because of that, often having to choose between Crunch vs Ice Punch for coverage. Despite such outstanding offensive power, Lucario also has a reluctancy to switch in and it hates chip damage; often relying on a Focus Sash or near full HP for optimal set-up opportunities. And despite such good defensive typing, it carries weaknesses to some of the most common coverage move-types in Fighting, Ground, and Fire. Without set-up, it often fails to have the power to reliably break many walls and could be crippled by Trick users. The addition of Lucario will inevitably shake-up the meta and will require a lot of adaptation. We will likely see a rise in usage of NU Pokemon like Slowbro, Nidoqueen, and Hitmontop, which will have downstream effects. Durant may also see additional usage resisting all priority moves, except Vacuum Wave. What this means for UU and NU is yet to be seen, but I personally feel that a changing metagame is very healthy for PokeMMO. We recognize that on paper, Lucario looks overpowered, but we were all surprised by how the meta adapted to Porygon-Z and we felt it was necessary to test Lucario there as well. If in the coming weeks we clearly see that Lucario is too much for UU, it will be banned back to borderline, but we anticipate this being a process that might take a month or more if not. Please discuss.
  13. I ran a bunch of matches overnight with both physical and special life orb sets. Both have outstanding wallbreaking, with special being a little better. Special has a tough time sweeping with Crobat and Yanmega resisting vacuum wave, thus physical is a little better. Didn't run into Slowbro but a few Dusclops, so would still prefer Crunch over Ice Punch. Only played against one and the opponent was quite bad, I fainted it with a Krook before it did anything. No signs of screens + Lucario yet. Matches were typically pretty fast paced and I felt a lot of pressure on my Porygon2, although it did tend to live forever or at least be one of my last mons in the couple matches I lost.
  14. While I don't necessarily agree that HDB would push sweepers like Gyarados or Togekiss over the edge, as they'll still have their slew of albeit shaky checks and counters post-setup, I do agree that the prospect of Multiscale Dnite is concerning with this item. I also see losing other items such as Life Orb, damage reducing berries, leftovers, etc as a big trade, but probably worth it. Now you brought up the question of defensive improvement with this item, which is what I was hoping @Lvkee was gonna bring up. It's a solid point and very much concerning, as you said, hazard removal opens the road for others to not use this item, and we really lack a lot that can swing momentum by those attempting to Defog (Defiant and Contrary) or Rapid Spin (Rough Skin Garchomp). Solid points all around Suigin, much appreciated as always.
  15. Excluding Volcarona, what other "stuff" do you think would become broken with this item?
  16. @TheBloo reserve me 10, I'll send to you tonight at 8pm Pacific
  17. You know, that is a very good question. With Venusaur proving to be a solid fit (and also being a check for Roserade in a sense), we should honestly reintroduce it as well, but that's my opinion. Now for the rest of you all knowing "community-players" who obviously know what decisions should be made, I have to remind you that the TC is quite active (cough cough Zebra... Tyrone... cough) and now have an activity requirement. Just because some of us don't partake in a "time-suck, poor-timing, bad-prize, not-worth-it" system like tournaments doesn't mean we aren't involved in the game. Lucario was voted on several months ago and determined to be a worthwhile test, our arguments are well laid out in prior threads so please review those for our discussion and opinion. Now I do feel you all for how slow tier changes occur, this is just a manifest of our game. Matchmaking has certainly allowed us to have more data faster and make better decisions, but it doesn't change the fact that all of these decision are incredibly difficult and often times mixed. Just look at your community discussions for example, where there is a lot of variety in opinion. That is often reflected in the TC, which is honestly good, because we don't want a lopsided system. Anyhoos, I'm sorry y'all don't feel heard, but for those of you who want immediate decisions and try to find every reason to complain, I lack sympathy for you. The TC has been elected by a tyrannical system and we make the decisions, but of course with reading through your many comments and responses = )
  18. These stalwarts crying hard. Viva la change. Is a meta after all. If Lucario or Zam are just outright broken, they'll be removed in due time but you have to give them due process.
  19. How does it feel to be the champion of the world and so few people even care. GGnore.
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