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Tier Council
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About DoubleJ

  • Birthday 01/31/1989

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  1. I think you're missing the point when trying to nitpick my argument. Not everyone runs the same basic sets or ev spreads, with the most common simply being pulled from Smogon. My primary argument here is that Lucario is too good, both in theory and practice. Access to Swords Dance + Extremespeed is the biggest reason. If you're opposed to a ban, then your post makes more sense and I'd like to hear more about that. Also, please refer to the TC Policy thread for definitions of a quick ban process. Additional edits are being made to the etiquette guide that should be posted at some point.
  2. So on paper, Lucario is a damn beast. It has no reason to not run either Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, and can clean nearly everything in the tier once it has set up (so long as it carries Life Orb and has enough health to survive). Even without Life Orb it has cleaning potential so long as you played your cards right and got enough chip. Regarding Swords Dance, Lucario can OHKO near everything with Life Orb and Stealth Rocks. The only Pokemon above 8% usage currently and survive the basic set of Swords Dance, Close Combat, Crunch, and Extremespeed at are Spiritomb, Dusclops, and Slowbro. Gligar gets a pass, but drop Crunch for Ice Punch and suddenly you're out of luck. Bulky Defense A +2 Extremespeed w/ Life Orb is able to clean near everything barring Mismagius, which has proven to be the best RK in the tier with an easily predicted HP Fighting that only does 55-66%. The only other thing that can stop it? Special Lucario with Vacuum Wave although a boosted espeed does 47-56%. Now theory is one thing, but we (TC) wanted practical and observational evidence to prove that Lucario deserves its position on the Borderline list and effectively banned from UU. Thus far, Lucario has easily risen to the top of the tier with over 30% usage and over 50% win percentage, both incredibly outstanding. In tournament play, Lucario is in the top 2 usage, but interestingly enough seen less in quarterfinals and finals matches in comparison. We see it sweeping in the early rounds, but really negated once competition tightens up. Other observations show that Lucario isn't necessarily the deciding factor in most matches. We have often seen Lucario taking too much damage to have much effect once it has set up, or being stopped with status moves. Dugtrio has been able to remove a few Lucario too as it has seen increased usage with its bump in Attack (Base Attack 80-->100). Now that is not to say Lucario hasn't been seen 6-0ing teams, it has. It is the most diverse and offensively gifted Pokemon in PokeMMO. Now in my own personal practice, I choose nothing other than teams designed around a Lucario sweep, or taking advantage of players being overly cautious trying to keep checks and counters alive at the cost of other mons as I typically win with a Scarf Krook or some other adjacent sweeper. But, I since Lucario dropped I think of no other set-up sweeper to use because there really isn't any need for one (Azumarill might be broken without Jellicent tho, but that's another story). So what does that mean? It means Lucario is too fucking good. Counter arguments include the fact that Lucario has very few set-up opportunities, maybe Scarf Krook Crunch/Pursuit and Porygon2 barring status. The entire tier has coverage or chunks Lucario a great deal, slowing down its sweeping ability, and more often than not, we see this being a huge factor in Lucario's effect on matches. Regardless, once Lucario sets up, it is almost indestructable, especially the Swords Dance version. Special Lucario can sweep but is a better wall breaker as there are more reliable RK options in faster threats that resist or are immune to Vacuum Wave. tl;dr Lucario looks too good and I'm leaning toward a Quick Ban, but that's my lone opinion and not the consensus of the TC. We are still in discussion and votes are coming.
  3. I think this is a great post supporting why practice and observation are so important in this decision. Thanks. 1. There are better sets than Scarf, yes. 2. I didn't say it was a ohko. 3. You just said scarf was bad, so trick probably does cripple it. 4. Good bulk and Technician Mach is pretty decent. 5. Nothing that I said was not true, Durant has seen increased usage. Superpower still hits Rotom pretty dang good. 80% accuracy better than whatever Rock Slide calcs to be (math is hard)
  4. Are you saying that both Porygon2 and Lucario should be banned?
  5. Hax items are a staff and developer issue, and unfortunately not a problem for TC. Would need to continue the conversation in the suggestion thread probably.
  6. So one significant change is that its previous pairing with Wobbu before, along with its base 100 attack, made it broken. The old trap rain core was pretty impressive. Now with a Wobbu nerf on shadow tag, there is an assumption that Dugtrio's effect won't be as great. @gbwead but first proven to be banworthy.
  7. Your argument is that Dugtrio is now an Uber with base 100 attack. Why ban and not just reverse this change? What does this adjustment do to propel it to S class or above? Thinking back, has there been enough meta change to warrant reintroduction of base 100 attack Dugtrio?
  8. So what I'm reading is a lot of frustration regarding the TC's release of Lucario, as well as several community members feeling like they aren't being heard or listened to. I'd like to address each of these 1-by-1 from my perspective as a TC member. 1. Lucario Several months ago Lucario dropped below OU usage cut-offs and the Tier Council reconsidered its status as BL1 (banned from UU). We looked at the changes the tier has made since it was first made BL1 several years ago, these changes including the introduction of Eviolite, Gen 8 movesets, and new Pokemon (Johto). With these changes we felt comfortable testing Lucario, and a vote was held with approval by the TC. The decision was then made public, but before the game was updated, Lucario's usage rose above the cut-off and it remained OU. Discussion at that time was reviewed and we did witness a few community members arguing against Lucario coming down. Calcs were provided, but despite this, the TC felt that practice and observation was needed to fully consider Lucario in UU. Fast forward to this season, and Lucario once again fell below the cut-off and the TC made the decision to move forward with our decision to release it from BL1. A discussion thread has been opened and there is little discussion unfortunately. Respect to @Havsha for providing a sound argument, but we as a TC have not yet come to a consensus on Lucario's status in UU. This is being discussed daily. 2. Community Input This is certainly a grey area and we as TC members have little control on the decision making algorithm. Our purpose is to interact with community, discuss amongst ourselves, and then vote. As of right now, I agree that we do a poor job interacting with the community. If you want the community to have a vote, then that's a discussion with staff.
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