Robofiend

I'm all for scaling- we already know that the devs have the tech to scale pokes down to 50 and it would make the frontier suck less for sure.

I think darkshade just /thread'd you - having a ton of people milling about in the existing cities makes the game look lively which keeps players from falling into the "no one plays this game, it must suck" mindset

I'm ok with the idea of giving it a tourney or two, but I think the only way to handle it is by running a bulky grass and that's going to make it really centralizing. Better to ban early than naively expect a poke this powerful to become balanced via non existent NU checks.

Lol, very clever clarification of the rules around getting banned, my friend ;)

But... Zangoose was a problem, we banned it. Without Pokemon like zangoose and Crobat I'm a little skeptical about offense continuing to be the dominant play style in NU.

I'm a little skeptical about the Flail set becoming big (you can just stall with Tangela until 1hp, sack something and send in Gligar or whatever) but the SD set is really scary, especially given how hard it nukes pretty much every popular physical wall, including grass types, though they win from over ~70%: +2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 99-117 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 113-133 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 141-166 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO +2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 113-133 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Hitmontop isn't even a check, unless it's to punch the Flail set out of existence. Lapras/Walrein dies to Superpower, Gligar to Waterfall, and other grassers like Victreebell, Shiftry and Tropius are just too weak to switch in without running obvious counter-sets. While Scyther, Electabuzz, Raichu (the fast one) and other random pokemon (Kadabra? CB Pinsir? fast Grumpig maybe?) can revenge kill Kingler after some damage, only Scyther (and I guess Sneasel) can boast the ability to kill a +1 Salac set. All of this is not to mention that the flail set executed perfectly is a pretty sure OHKO against Tangela or Bellossom, meaning that if your opponent sends out a Kingler late game and your Gligar/Scyther/Hitmontop is already dead, that's pretty much GG, as it outspeeds the tier after Salac and Flail does massive damage: +2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 187-220 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO +2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 164-194 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO Given these facts, I'm having trouble seeing why Kingler isn't fit for a quick ban. I think that it's one of those things that once people do the calcs, breed it, use and then win tourneys with, we'll be worse off than if we just banned it now. Like FireLion pointed out, the tendency to wait too long makes for an awkward period of "well I'm not gonna breed that if it's getting banned" followed by the players who already have them abusing them and then an awkward decision of whether to let everyone waste their money or just let these players keep on winning because they have the current OP thing that people are scared to breed. To me, it's the same problem that came to be with Rhydon - really good but not that highly used because people thought it'd be banned.

Kaynine hit the nail on the head- we like testing unless it's really obvious that a poke should be banned (salamence, Jynx, slaking, etc.). In all likelihood, Vap will be banned after the first tournament or two when everyone realizes that it's just plain cancerous for the tier (speculation on my part, but not a huge stretch of imagination)

OOOOO SICK BURN ALERT Also yeah he was talking about the fact that when I don't do the write up everything goes to shit, not that we just flipped a coin and then try to justify why that outcome decides Chansey's fate.

I think DS hits the nail on the head as far as tradeable content goes - people will just alt the shit out of this. Not to mention that if all you have to do is log in, many players will do that and nothing else - daily free shit doesn't promote actively participating in the game.

U ninjad me but its okay I still think this is a good idea. Berry costs will help the eternal money drain that devs love so much :)

Yeah I agree with JJ - Chansey just isn't "too good not to use"- Trace / NC Pokemon abuse the toxic stall (and most have recovery), Trapinch hard stops it, Trickbanders exist, Guts is always an option, and spikes, Magneton, Venusaur, and Calm Minders have ways of making its life harder. While it is annoying and somewhat centralizing, there are options to stop it and people have been using them to win battles, somewhat unlike Blissey or Snorlax back in the day.

You can post requests for unbans that will never happen in the OU Discussion Request thread ;)

They're not as important as focus blast, close combat, or zen headbutt. I guess it'd be nice to have a special dark move for NU but since we have so few ghosts to start with, shadow claw would have little effect.

128 max Also regarding this update generally - 1. Yeah, it's kinda sucky that staff tourneys might die out, but honestly I think this method will be a huge boost for the community. This game simply can't scale with 2-4 staff overseeing every tournament in a global game where some of us get off work at 1am GMT and others wake up at 1am GMT. Auto tourneys will definitely boost the possibility for players to play on their own time and not have to worry about building their lives around the game. Currently people living in Australia or Seattle have a hell of a time playing tournaments outside of the weekends and this will be a huge benefit for them. While tournaments might lose some of their "everyone together at once" feel, that's something that just has to die if this game is to scale to a global audience - which it needs to do to be successful. 2. Rewards are awesome. We've all been waiting for passive PVP rewards for ages and it's dope that the devs finally caved to this request, because now there's a reason to log in, play a couple matches, collect your winnings, and build up to that awesome BP move or item you've been looking for. Absolutely nothing wrong with this implementation at first glance - we'll have to see if the doomsday scenarios argued by some of the staff come to pass however (it's possible, but unlikely in my eyes). 3. Replays = Hell yeah. I really want to give this feature a test drive and think it'll be a great alternative to watching KaynineXL absolutely demolish the ORAS OU ladder on showdown. Bummer it won't work with mobile, but it adds a whole new level of scouting to the game, which should reward players who can play multiple teams/styles effectively. Overall: hell yeah. I'll be bummed if I can't find time for the PTS (I'm tempted to think it'll die before I get off work tomorrow, but a guy can hope). These are the droids features we're looking for.

>Chansey wishes on the switch >Switches out on phys attack >great success very nice I'm not saying Chansey's broken necessarily, but it's not true that Chansey needs to take a hit by default. I'm kind of open to the idea of test banning it but then again it's not really broken - it's just good at using its 2 sets (wish/protect and cleric) to win a match here and there. I've seen lots of new threats that abuse it (Growth/Leech Venusaur, SD Blaziken, pretty much any Metagross, Miltank, Trapinch etc.) and that gives me reason to believe that it's not de facto worth banning - it's causing at least some degree of innovation to occur instead of just stagnating everything like Gengar or Snorlax.

breloom sweep game is unreal http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-334662838

Nu: raichu plus anything that stops rocks

EYYYYYY inb4 shit update jk devs luv u

a word of advice - you can't use Dragonite in official tournaments so it might not be worth the time investment to you.

I'll fite u

This thread is just a reiteration of an argument that happens all the fucking time, so to summarize the key points: No, we're not going back to "power based tiering". We're going to keep moving things into their proper usage tier (based on how much they're used in that game) unless they break the game. Power based tiering is just too spooky and doesn't really make sense. Yeah, usage stats are broken right now because of staff turnover and the fact that they do this shit by hand. I've offered multiple times to write a script that summarizes team summaries (i.e. lists of pokemon that each player uses) into a simple usage stats table, but it's never materialized. I suppose I should ask Tyrone, because, to his credit, I've mostly asked Noadshade. Whether or not the original council did a better job or not is irrelevant, all of the original TC is rip. Also the metagames were arguably worse than they are now (game mechs were more favorable), everyone complained then too, and Senile/Think did most of the decision making. While the current council isn't perfect, we're at least somewhat democratic and no one can force a decision like in the old days - I consider this a plus. Yeah, the game mechanics, available pokemon/moves, and general slow pace of the game suck. Unfortunately, the Tiering Council can't do anything about that, so we just try to make the best decisions we can with what we have, considering both the raw usage and the community's input. Usage stats don't make bans happen: the Slowking/Scizor situation is a great example of this. While Scizor wasn't as highly used as Vileplume, Slowking, and Kangaskhan at some points, it was banned because there was a good reason to. It's the same reason that Metagross will never be banned despite being consistently highly used - it's just not broken. To top it off, no one wants it banned so there's no reason for the Tier Council to consider it. While some bans (Gengar or Blissey/Snorlax) have been tightly contested, most bans that actually go through are usually suggested and supported by people outside of the Tiering organization here. While it might seem like PokeMMO is always going to have imbalanced or centralized metagames, we work on the assumption that some degree of diversity is possible and beneficial: even if we can never achieve a truly great metagame, we can at least get closer to one. I generally don't put too much stock in arguments that say every Pokemon metagame is (centralized / imbalanced / there is always something that's "too good not to use") because if you play DPP or ORAS metagames you'll see that balanced, diverse and evolving metagames can and do exist. Given good tiering decisions and improved game mechanics, they're vastly more competitive than centralized/imbalanced metagames that plagued the earlier games (ADV, GSC). TL;DR: Sorry not sorry, this is one of those times where it's better to just push the devs to give us Technician Bullet Punch, Zapdos, Heatran and Focus Blast than it is to ask the Tier Council to change policy.

Yeah just giving u shit jimbo :) we all know lion overpaid lol

Nvm sounds about right kek

lmao the funniest part is the jim was worth less than the 5k lion paid for him

Yo add me for NU & ORAS UU