Robofiend

yo i'm gonna be cheaper this season, hype

Wow another pointless discussion in Comp Alley

literally just gave you an update lmao

I totally agree with you, XPLOZ, we've been kicking around this idea internally as more of the community and council has come out against unbanning things like Tyranitar and Gengar.

Also, fuck you for calling me lazy after I spend an hour of my life writing that wall of text explaining my reasoning while you write a single sentence that doesn't even present an argument

I disagree, we shouldn't just reset the tiers because "lol wynaut, we just got new items" especially when its obvious that those items will help the very things we're unbanning as much as their supposed checks and counters

Maybe, but even so, having to deal with the threat of three different sets is a lot of pressure. The CB set can annihilate walls like Skarmory/Swampert who try to phase or resist an attack, the Scarf set will help to weed out Starmie or other Choice-locked opponents, and the DD set will laugh at anything that's expecting a bad Scarf prediction and can't OHKO. While lots of pokemon can hit it hard, Tyranitar actually lives a lot of the fast scarf/band attacks at full health. While Tyranitar isn't exactly the easiest pokemon to get into play free of damage and that's not always the conditions you'll be seeing, the damage outputs here are pretty convincing of its acceptable defenses. 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 278-330 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Part of the problem is that Scarf Quake/Superpower is also really predictable and really hurts your team's momentum if your opponent decides to keep Tyranitar alive and sends in any of the myriad of other pokemon in the tier who resist these attacks. I'll take your point about Theorying items (although TC are now trying to discuss possible changes with the devs). While we don't know exactly when these changes will happen, or how much they'll affect the game, most of the TBA items also serve to help Tyranitar. Life Orb alone gives you endless possibilities, Assault Vest gives you extra special wall powers, and Shuca or (Fighting Resist) berry can also do a lot for you. I think my most solvent point here is the sheer number of pokemon that Tyranitar more or less laughs at: - Arcanine: you simply can't hang with that kinda Rock stab, not to mention a real lack of offense that will leave you totally unable to do anything, even if you do predict that Fire Punch correctly. - Weezing: sure, Tyra can't switch in reliably, but when running DD/Taunt, it has little to fear with a SpDef buff and Weezing's lack of offense against it - Venusaur: Giga drain does less than half to the spooky dino, and the popular speedy sets don't have shit to say to a +1/+1 or Scarf set with Fire Punch on hand. - Ludicolo: Scarftar alone 3HKO's it with Rocks (Giga only 3HKO's as well) and other sets obviously do more - Skarmory: Lol, Steel Wing. Honestly all it can do is hope you don't have Taunt and WW or force you out with resistances and spikes. Anything that isn't Choiced will be able to plow through it with a flinch or two, or a dedicated coverage move. - Dusclops: Absolutely worthless as a spinblocker with Tar around. Same goes for Haunter, really. - Slowbro: A wall no more when you have a phys attacker with a STAB that totally nukes you. - Jolteon, Zam, Espeon: Yeah, have fun using these guys, either you give up your HP to hit Tyranitar or get Pursuited to death trying to flee. Bulkier tar sets don't even care about specs, and they force people who use any of these mons to make blind 50/50's about setting up CM or trying to hit you on the switch. These pokemon suffer even with Chansey around, not to mention what happens when you suddenly get a crazy bulky pokemon that now needs its own coverage move and can live anything else you throw at it rather comfortably. - Magneton: With the usual Fire/Electric set, you really can't do shit to Tyranitar except hope for para, and even HP grass is pretty weak. - Chansey, P2: These pokemon are already pretty easy to abuse. When you throw in something that doesn't mind Toxic (CB or DD Tar) and ravage the meta with a STAB attack, it's just a bit crazy. That should be enough to make my main case: Tyranitar, even if it has checks, will just be insanely centralizing at this juncture. We've worked hard to make OU suck less, and frankly I think we've made a lot of progress from a year ago when pretty much every OU match was a Curselax war or before that when it was just Dragonite battles. I've long held that we're not going to be able to deal with Tyranitar until we get more Steel Types (BP Scizor, Scarf Heatran) and more viable fighting attacks (Close Combat, Focus Blast). I'm going to stand by that until we get word of more changes from the devs.

I'm opposed to a tier reset for two reasons: Without defensive items, offense will only get buffed by a reset. Thought Tyranitar was scary with only DD and Choice Band? Now you have to worry about Scarftar. If we get Life Orb, then this problem will only increase, as mixed sets will become ultra-viable as well. Even defensive items (Assault Vest, Eviolite) would do little to mitigate the Dragons/Pseudo-Legends/Gengar's ability to tear through the game, as we lack pokemon to abuse it (LF PorygonZ for Eviolite P2). With more changes coming (I'm betting new/updated moves would be next), a reset would throw the lower tiers into a cycle of instability for a long time. The way I see it, offensive items like Scarf and Specs are cool, but it's not like they're going to cut into Dragonite's ability to straight up crush the tier with Dragonspam or Gengar's deadly versatility - in fact, they'd only serve to enhance it and make these pokemon even more centralizing than they were before. The way I see it, these changes aren't going to change anything in particular, they're just going to make some lower-tier pokemon potentially banworthy. The chage does give me some hope though - if moves from 4th Gen were also added/updated, pokes like Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar would fear Focus Blast, Bullet Punch Scizor and other threats even more and Gengar might become less of a menace because of the addition of Scarf. But as of now, I think the requests for a reset are premature given the likely effects of these new items.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-357885244 tfw you get a straight massive hax injection right when you need it

lilligant mvp also deez playz http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-357227221

when the whole squad haxing http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-357048736

Gonna start with these, subject to revision: Porygon for A: great wall, but an ill-timed Toxic against a team that doesn't have Chansey can keep it from stalling as effectively as well as it does when healthy. The ability to check most Gyarados, Jolteon, and a few other pokemon is a huge plus as well. Its biggest weakness is less reliable damage output compared to Chansey and the fact that its offensive options (BoltBeam, Tri Attack, Facade) generally open the door for Metagross, Magneton and other specially defensive pokemon to come in with relative immunity, so long as they can risk taking Toxic. Heracross for A+: an all around solid sweeper with defense to back up an ultra spammable STAB and coverage to break through potential checks. Kingdra for A: a scary sweeper whose abilities as both a Special and Physical sweeper make it rather threatening, although they are partially mitigated by how common certain checks are (Gyarados/Chansey, in particular) Linoone for B: definitely falls into the "needs support" category, but only truly shines against stall. It requires a very special few teammates to be effective (Mag for Skarm, Gardevoir to east setup woes, etc.) but once it is set up very little can get in its way. While Metagross is a common threat, a +6 Linoone can both outspeed it and hit it hard enough to be effective. Alakazam for B: cool sweeper and support (dat Trickband) but the fact that Aero ruins it 90% of the time is a black mark on it. Espeon in part outclasses it with better defensive stats and similar offensive capabilities. Jolteon for B+: Growth set is gaining some traction, though shallow coverage and the omnipresent Chansey keep it from becoming massively threatening, so long as Chansey is played well and Jolteon picks the wrong HP for coverage. Trapinch for C: The definition of "niche", this guy does its one job (killing Chansey) incredibly well and can enable other lesser pokemon to sweep once the enemy's blob has been killed. Offensive teams without Chansey, however, absolutely ruin the little genius. Cacturne for C: Again, niche but usable. One of the few pokemon with Spikes in the current meta, and its resistance to common attacks from Metagross, Gyarados, and Aerodactyl can help fill in defensive holes on a team. Unfortunately, its defenses are rather papery outside of its useful resistances and other spikers (Skarm, Forre, Cloyster) all boast similar effectiveness against the tiers top sweepers. Tentacruel for D: Imo, it's a bit more lowly than Cacturne, boasting little in the way of healing, resistances, and support moves (yay, Rapid Spin) and coming up short against tons of opponents. Poison typing is an absolute curse with the popularity of EQ/Psychic Metagross, DD/EQ Gyara, Espeon/Zam/Starmie, and the myriad of other sweepers who can hit it for SE damage.

they both protect against special attackers. As it is your team is very susceptible to strong physical attackers, you'd be better doing Pory/Skarmo or Weezing/Chansey or something

slowpoke QueueNo Rush: Evolve: yeah sure EVs: 252hp/252def Level 50: why not Moves to Learn: slack off, psychic Moves to Keep: sleep talk, rest IGN: robofiend forre QueueNo Rush: Evolve: yeah sure EVs: 252hp/252def Level 50: why not Moves to Learn: spikes, rapid spin Moves to Keep: Toxic IGN: robofiend skamory QueueNo Rush: Evolve: yeah sure EVs: 252def Level 50: nah Moves to Learn: spikes Moves to Keep: Everything except Steel Wing (DP, Rest, something something) IGN: robofiend

Don't run Pory/Chansey on same team Rest/Protect on Skarmory over Rocks Whirlwind over Steel Wing No Fake Out on Ludi - Ice for Venu Porygon usually wants Toxic/Twave Blaze Kick > Fire Punch on Blaziken

Oh to be more specific, what I'm talking about is having each match spawn a chat that dies after the match is over. I don't really see a need for tourney wide chat if every match, including matchmaking m, has its own chat thread

I think we're due for some changes: Hera to A+: Heras a solid teammate who can abuse a lot of common threats with Guts and boost past walls with Swords Dance. With resistance to Dark, Ground, Fighting and enough bulk to take a hit or two from almost anything, Hera outshines other sweepers who have noticeable defensive weaknesses. Even Weezing, Heracross' best check is afraid of boosted attacks and can be played around pretty well. Other walls like Slowbro, Skarmory and bulky Gyarados can only swap in on certain attacks and risk taking losing large amounts of health against Guts boosted or Choice Band attacks. Kingdra for A: with the recent popularity of Gyarados, Venusaur, Ludicolo and Psychics in OU, Kingdra finds less of a niche than it used to. While it does still have enough power to plow through weakened teams and it can still abuse status stall and other defensive tactics well enough to stay relevant.

Let me preface this by saying: the main problem I see here is implementation. This could be anywhere from a little bit of work to a terribly frustrating amount of dev work. But... I think it'd be awesome to have chat rooms for Automated Matches (Tourny, Ranked, Matchmaking). As is, the feel of tournaments is slightly off because you can't talk shit without keeping 20 message threads alive. And now that random matches aren't by default in an area where lots of people hang out, you lose the fun of being able to hang out in a hub with friends and watch battles. The pros of chat are obvious, really, it's one of the most enjoyable parts of other PVP games, and I'd be surprised if it weren't already on the dev docket. At any rate, just thought I'd put this here so the suggestion's out in public, I've already heard a lot of people saying they want this in game.

ancient power is a good choice, hits arca/gyara hard enough and if you get a boost you're unstoppable you'd have to rebreed tho

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/randombattle-353985497 most brutal stall i've done to someone in a while, this guy just wouldn't quit

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-randombattle-353954633 get rekt orange

Literally no point in having this discussion

The reason that Vaporeon is getting more scrutiny than Umbreon is because Vaporeon actually has offense, while Umbreon is very similar to Clefable or other stallers who can Wish/Protect all day but can't really turn that into anything but a couple of stalled out turns for their team. Vaporeon's Surf alone (unboosted) does a sizeable chunk of damage to Steelix, Zangoose, Hitmonlee, Swellow, Manectric and a myriad of other physical attackers. Ice Beam hits Vileplume (+ other grassers) and Altaria hard enough to stop their setup or prevent them from counterstalling it. Vaporeon's ability to stall out pretty much anything (Vileplume can't even 2HKO, Kanga can't break it, Clefable just counter stalls) is straight up toxic, especially since specially defensive teammates (Umbreon, Kangaskhan, Clefable, etc.) can back it up with even more Wish stall or sponge/cleric Toxic to keep Vaporeon healthy. All of this doesn't even touch on how good the Modest Growth set is: +1 252+ SpA Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 115-136 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 2HKO on the tier's premier special wall is pretty amazing, not to mention that at +1 it has great chances against a ton of the tier's walls. +1 252+ SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 164-194 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO +1 252+ SpA Vaporeon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ SpA Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 111-132 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery All of this is sort of beside the point: honestly, Vaporeon wouldn't be that scary if it could only pull off this set. Faster sweepers break it much easier than the defensive set and Toxic stall from Umbreon or Clefable would be enough to keep it from boosting past them uncontested. But compound this with the fact that each set can equally help offensive and defensive teams and you've got the true definition of an S rank: meta defining, capable of pulling off many sets effectively, and effective on many teams. While Umbreon might meet the last criterion, I certainly don't see it becoming meta-defining, maybe even becoming a check against Kangaskhan, Houndoom and a number of other sweepers. TL;DR - lets use this thread to discuss Vaporeon (or not, since it seems most people agree it's pretty scary) and we can talk about Umbreon later, since it lacks some of Vaporeon's best traits.

Tbh I think the calcs just plain prove its too strong, that's why I wanted a quickban in the first place. To me it looks like "run a bulky grass and priority or get run over by most of the sets" which just doesn't seem right.

Go do the calcs. Can Whiscash ever 1shot its counters? Can it break Lapras easily? I agree about DE being a double edged sword, but discounting the Flail set is a bit naive - it's pretty damn reliable, especially since Kingler breaks Hitmontop (assuming SD/Flail) with +2 Crabhammer and takes hilariously little from uninvested attacks. One thing that should be mentioned, though, is that the Flail set needs to be sure it's not coming in on Toxic, because that frankly just ruins it and status is everywhere in NU. Kingler has good chances coming in on Poliwrath, Camerupt (assuming the Spdef version, not CB), Ice Punch locked Sneasel, anything that's Resting, and even a Lapras Surf. Other boosting attackers like CM Grumpig or (slow) Xatu could find themselves checked by a particularly ballsy Kingler player.