NikhilR

Can you point to me where I brought it up exactly? There's nothing wrong with using an initial Ice Beam user to break the Yache, and then rk'ing with Ice Beam. You can even go down a different path by using Dragon-stab revenge killers. Milotic + P2 + Blissey + Hippo can break the Yache Berry of Garchomp since they don't die to +2 EQ. The entire point of this is that you have MULTIPLE checks to Garchomp. If Garchomp is running Lum, Ice Beam P2 or Ice Beam Starmie can check it. If Garchomp is running Yache, then Cloyster and Scarf Mamo can check it. All non-sub or scarf variants of Garchomp are checked by Scarf Kingdra / Scarf Salamence. P2 isn't a revenge killer since it's slower; I misworded that and edited my post before you quoted it, that's my fault. I have played it in the past. I use Scarf Kingdra if I'm weak to rain otherwise, and I used Scarf Mence prior to Garchomp as a revenge killer for DD Gyara / QD Volca. Scarf Hydreigon checks Garchomp. Do you admit that? So let's compile a list of mons that can work: Yache Berry Garchomp Checks: 1) Scarf Kingdra 2) Scarf Mence 3) Scarf Hydreigon 4) Scarf Mamo 5) Cloyster SD Lum Garchomp Checks: 1) Scarf Kingdra 2) Scarf Mence 3) Scarf Hydreigon 4) Scarf Mamo 5) Cloyster 6) Starmie 7) HP Ice Scarf Mag 8) HP Ice Gengar Garchomp Counters: 1) Foul Play Mandibuzz 2) Foul Play Umbreon You don't necessarily need a fixed check / counter for it either. You can play around it with trick + getting rocky helmet damage on it too. Safeguard Volca / Conk Careful / Scarf Kingdra are not everywhere, but they have utility, and because they have utility, you shouldn't just completely ignore it when teambuilding.

It's been 2 years of Unova already and I have seen/played enough OU to determine that Scarf Mence and Scarf Kingdra have a lot of utility. Garchomp does not force me to use these mons because I can run Scarf Kingdra as a countermeasure to rain teams and Scarf Mence can revenge kill most other mons. Garchomp does not need to be banned asap, and it's time to face the facts that Garchomp does not need to be banned. Kingdra can Draco Meteor Garchomp, but Draco Meteor can miss, and Ice Beam is a way to get that guaranteed kill against non-yache Chomp. So therefore Kingdra is an ice Beam revenge killer. EDIT: Scarf Cloyster and Scarf Mamo are also great revenge killers. Icicle Spear is a great move to try and kill stuff that are behind a sub.

I don't care about your win rate because I don't know how you've managed to accomplish said win rate. You told me stuff like Zangoose or whatever can beat screens teams so the evidence I am looking for would be to see you win against screens team with said mons. But you won't do that, you won't let me try to prove you wrong when I asked you build me 2-3 teams that can reliably do that. If you can't do that, then how am I supposed to take your claim seriously? Just theorize everything? You do more OU battles than me, yes, but what's the point? I don't play unranked often because I don't care about beating charizardlover6969. If you include those games in your "I play more OU battles than you" statement, then it doesn't hold much weight. I play ranked / tours because I want to face the better part of the competition. You may have played ranked, but I don't think that's enough. If your hard facts are simply but theories then I want to have nothing to do with them. On another note, I don't respect you at all, but I am willing to change how I feel that way if you provide me with teams to beat Screens Teams like Umbra did.

Dude shut the fuck up and don't tag me or quote me because I don't want to be tagged with your nonsense. All you do is talk bs but when it comes to practice you disappear like Nileseyy Niles. I didn't want to specifically speak about Ice Beamer checks, no; that's my mistake if I led you on that way. I'm just giving you an example of how there are multiple checks to Garchomp, which need not be ice beamers. You can run Cloyster, Hydreigon, Scarf Mence, and Scarf Kingdra for that purpose. Scarf Kingdra is excellent to be able to counter rain matchups, so I don't know why it's bad. It's a great revenge killer, and has great surprise value, so I don't know why it wouldn't be bad. Yes I made a mistake with mentioning Mandi as a check and not a counter. You can make Scarf Mence / Kingdra a thing, but you just don't want to adapt or get used to running scarfers. I don't know what's wrong with Scarf Mence either. Just because "it's not a thing" doesn't mean that it can't be one. It's an OU mon for fuck's sake. You know Spdef Dnite was not a thing, yet I had to adapt to try to make it one to counter Togekiss. Timid Milotic was never a thing, yet I had to to adapt to make it a thing for Togekiss. So adapt. It's because all I have to do is literally run one mon (Garchomp) to revenge kill opposing mons. If I don't run a Cofagrigus for Conkeldurr, I could get fucked depending on its set. The reason I run Scarf Chomp is because it's an excellent revenge killer for almost everything, One"fast check" that can kill Lum Berry Garchomp with Ice Beam may be Starmie. Another "fast check" can be Scarf Kingdra as well with Ice Beam. You can run HP Ice on Mag as well (does not ohko but weakens it plenty). As far as bulky checks go, p2 kills with ice Beam. Why are you making it sound like Starmie is the only mon that can kill it with Ice Beam?

How can your Hippo counter Conk to a very reasonable extent when it nearly gets 2hko'd by it? Rocky Helmet Hippo also lacks recovery, which means it needs to be at 100% health + outspeed Conk which isn't guaranteed. Even if Conk is on the verge of death after facing a Hippo, which isn't the case, it can then recover a shit ton of health back with drain punch. I have played Hippo with RH too and I lost to ZAnderson most recently in an OU tour because his Conk outsped by Hippo. No it's not flawed. If Garchomp is running a Lum Berry, it may take down a mon, but then you can kill it with something else with ice Beam. I've not clicked the forfeit button vs Garchomp ever, so I must be doing something right. If Garchomp hides behind a sub, I hope the Garchomp user is prepared to press X vs my Shed Shell Skarmory then. This is as threatening and capable of sweeping as Flame Orb Conkeldurr. Starmie, Tentacruel, Reuniclus and Chandelure just to name a few do give a shit about that set. I hope you don't think that I am kidding because it is as threatening as a regular Conkeldurr. I have seen it before in action and it has done well for me. There are issues with every Garchomp sets and these issues are considerably not more important than the issues that face Conkeldurr, Volcarona, and Togekiss. 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 342-404 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 0 Atk Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO Starmie cannot check careful set, but it can check Flame Orb Set. Similarly, Specs Starmie may not be able to check Yache Berry Garchomp, but it can check other variants. 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 296-350 (82.9 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ---------------- Fast Checks examples for Garchomp: Scarf Hydreigon 252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 188-224 (102.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Scarf Mence 252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 162-192 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO Scarf Kingdra 252+ SpA Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 242-288 (132.2 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Shell Smash Cloyster +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 78 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 103-123 (76.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ------------ Bulky Check Examples: For Conk: 0 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 120 HP / 116 SpD Conkeldurr: 284-336 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 229-270 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Conk beats Reuni. Therefore not a check. The spread I used is from Smogon because there is no standard spread since apparently the norm is to keep speed creeping Hippos and this goes on back and forth. Bulky Check Example For Garchomp: +2 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (92.3 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO ------------- Yes because I have lost to more Conks than Garchomps.

Given that the most popular Conk set is a Flame Orb set, I'd say that 1) if you're using to Hippo to counter it and 2) if Hippo can only counter if it outspeeds it, then that's an issue because you don't really know what speed the Conk user is using. Even if let's say it's a 252 speed Conk, then if it muscles past Hippo, it's very likely to cause more defensive holes in your team because unlike Garchomp, it can drain punch and recover its health. It also has access to priority which is threatening for revenge killers. Yes you only gave me one Garchomp set, which was the SD Yache set. However, that set is the best Garchomp set, so it's not like I have to be prepared for anything more than that because anything else is just inferior. When it comes to Conk, almost every set it can run is threatening and capable of sweeping, even though the Flame Orb set is more popular . You said that if I'm worried about coverage, then I can run a few checks to form a defensive core. But can I not say the same thing with regards to Garchomp by saying run one ice beamer to break yache + revenge killer? But this is only true if you have the right check to its set, which you may not know until it's too late.

Well the question then becomes "how much speed should I invest?" because how do you know you're running enough speed to outspeed your opponent's Conk? The only way to do this is to make sure you then outspeed a 252 speed Conk, and by doing this, you undermine Hippo's ability to then wall other mons simply because Conk was too problematic. Salamence + Gliscor die to Bulk Up Ice Punch. Starmie + Gengar also die to Bulk Up Careful variants. So how are these checks? Togekiss is a great answer because of its ability to air slash flinch. Chandelure dies to one rock slide after Conk uses bulk up. Reuniclus probably loses to the Bulk Up Careful variant if it has psyshock + if Conk user plays it properly. The only pokemon that's capable of walling all sets is Cofagrigus.

What are some of your Conk checks other than Cofagrigus? I would like to know. Also the biggest difference between Conk and Chomp in terms of bulk is the special defense, but because Conk is slow, it can afford to invest in its bulk. Conk's primary weakness is Psychic and Flying type moves, of which the former mostly exists with Reuni and I think Flying is mostly common with Skarmory. But it's not a move that a lot of other pokemon pack on. Hippo is hardly a counter to Conk when it is nearly 2hko'd. +1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery A lot of Conks invest in speed nowadays (thereby reducing its bulk for sure), so it's highly unlikely that Hippo will be faster than it and will be able to slack off on the damage. If you add rocks on the field, Conk has a better chance of winning. With Drain Punch, that lack of bulk might not be so problematic if it can then just heal off the damage. The best Conk answer is Cofagrigus, only.

yes volt immunity nice but garchomp one burn = useless but infernape one volt switch = not useless. garchomp sub mean no fire fang = wall skarm. monkey no bulk but fast and good coverage. fight / fire / rock hit everything. what it not hit? also monkey with one sd = power to kill everything. same like garchomp, no? yes wide len mean no berry, but no need water berry for tenta because scald no kill in one turn. yes less risk for garchomp because 95% accuracy, i admit. eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, you dclaw into ferro rocky helmet, you fire fang or eq into flying gliscor rocky helmet, then you not know whether to sd or dclaw or fire and then garchomp = dead because opp smart. monkey just blaze kick = dead glisc and ferrothorn. blaze also possible crit and burn, very nice. monkey have other weakness yes, but if monkey carry psychic berry you run reuni = reuni dead. if monkey run ground berry and you use eq = eq user dead. you not know what berry monkey has, so what pokemon you send in vs monkey? garchomp i know is lo or yache at least. Infernape >>>>>>> Garchomp

Fire have one immunity important will o wisp or burn. Fire have more speed and good coverage. Fire use wide lens and hit stone edge = hit and you dead. Dragon use Fire fang and miss = dead. Fire no need to play moves EQ and opp switch flying / levitate user. Ez dodge. Fire no need play move Flare Blitz and instead run Blaze Kick. Blaze Kick burn and crit opp, Fire is op. Fire no 4x weakness to Ice Beam. p2 Ice Beam LO Garchomp = lol dead. p2 Ice Beam Infernape = live. Fire ability blaze in less 33% health range more power fire move = kill everything. Garchomp no ability lol = useless. Infernape >>>>>>>>>>>> Garchomp

Does this look like the face of something you want to piss off man?

Garchomp is definitely on a higher class than other SD users, but the function of every SD user is to break through certain walls or limit as many possible answers to it as possible. Garchomp SD Yache Berry has a limited set of answers yes, but that is the case with almost every mon with every set. You cannot have pokemon A counter every possible set of pokemon B, that's just not possible. If Garchomp has Yache Berry, it cannot freely SD vs a scald user, or something like defensive Rotom-Wash or Cofagrigus can come in and Will-O-Wisp it. You can also play around certain threats by giving them Rocky Helmet and pile on additional damage on Garchomp. See Rocky Helmet Gliscor / Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn. +2 252 Atk Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO +2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tentacruel: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 94-112 (32 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 224-265 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 214-252 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Infernape can also run Thunder Punch to take out Tentacruel / Starmie if it wishes. +2 252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 390-460 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 195-230 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252 Atk Infernape Blaze Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 357-421 (136.7 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 223-264 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Infernape can run a multitude of options as its third move, are you going to run multiple checks for it? Infernape has much lesser bulk than Garchomp, I agree. That lack of bulk can be compensated by having the right berry. Infernape doesn't need Life Orb for big walls like Reuniclus or Rotom-Wash. Its lack of bulk can be compensated by having the right berry resist. Infernape does not have the same base attk as Garchomp, but that too is compensated by SD. 4 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Passho Berry Infernape: 178-211 (60.7 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +4 252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 345-406 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Infernape suffers from 4 MSS, but unlike Garchomp, it can't be burnt which is super useful. If Garchomp chooses to not hold a yache berry, it makes itself more prone to being revenge killed by Ice Beam users. For every change in its set, you gain an advantage but also lose something valuable in the process. Let me address your 4mss argument this way. Infernape can run Mach Punch / Thunder Punch / Stone Edge as its 3rd move, for each of which there are different checks / counters. You won't know which set you're facing prior to the game, so the only hope you have is to pray you either have the right check to it, or you run every possible check to it. That's not a healthy approach, which is why it'd be easier to resort to revenge killing. While Garchomp may not have to compromise with Ground / Dragon / Fire coverage, at least knowing that it doesn't have to compromise gives you foreknowledge. It is not a massive win because Garchomp being able to take out one mon in your team means it has only earned 1/6th of a win. There's still five more mons to go. Garchomp isn't guaranteed a kill as easily as you make it out to be, because there's so many factors that go into it. Like if Garchomp is getting an SD, the question becomes what exactly are you doing that turn or why are you giving it a free SD? Garchomp is not going to get a free SD vs Ice Beam p2 / Ice Fang Hippo / Wow or Hpump Rotom-Wash / Blissey Ice Beam. Even if it does get an SD, it's not like it necessarily beats them. +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 229-271 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO in return, Ice Beam 2hkos. +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery in return, Ice Fang 2hkos. +2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery in return, Hydro Pump 2hkos. +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 301-355 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO in return, Ice Beam 2hkos. The issue to me seems that you give Garchomp a free opportunity to SD by switching in something else the turn that it SDs instead of attacking it straight away. We have team preview so you can make smart decisions on how to go about this. No, we're not assuming that because it can be revenge killed that it is automatically disqualified as an uber mon. This is the language from the Tiering Etiquette guide regarding Offensive Characteristic: A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort. I don't see a Garchomp completely sweeping a team with little effort. I don't see an opportunity where Garchomp gets to freely SD without trading something in return -> losing health / getting a burn / consumption of berry.

Almost every SD'er has the potential to 2hko every pokemon with Swords Dance because that's the purpose of it. Like Infernape can do that too. Infernape has much lesser bulk than Garchomp, but if it has the right resist berry, it can break through most walls in the game. It has the capability of also dishing out two hits before being hit twice. SD Excadrill can 2hko most stuff in the tier too while being able to dish out 2 hits before being hit twice. But that's the function of almost any wallbreaker or offensive pokemon -> to have the ability to guaranteed kill something. I'm not sure why it's so unique with Garchomp. You only have to run Mandibuzz + Umbreon if you want to be able to switch in and always wall Garchomp, but if your strategy or team is built in such a manner where if Garchomp can poke a hole in your team and then it falls apart, then to me that's more of an issue with your team. Garchomp being able to delete one pokemon from your team shouldn't qualify as a massive win for the Garchomp user because you still have 5 remaining members on the team which should be capable of winning the game. Garchomp is admittedly one of the best mons, and you can never go wrong with throwing it into your team. The fact that it doesn't take skill to use Garchomp can literally apply to a ton of pokemon here. I have run balanced teams in MM, and with success. If you wish to look at replays of my games in tours, you're free to do so. Garchomp was also banned in DPP OU because of the 120 BP Outrage which had the ability to nuke stuff like Cresselia, and that's something important that you're overlooking. The metagame here is VERY different from DPP so you can't compare the two imo. Garchomp could easily sweep in DPP OU because of how you lacked more defensive answers to it than MMO + you were dependent on scarf users to revenge kill it, and a majority of the scarf users in DPP can be trapped. Scarf Rachi -> Mag / Outrage Flygon gets locked so something else can set up or freely kill it / Latias could get trapped too -> Scizor or TTar. In DPP you can also get away with not using to scarfers to check DD mons because they can be taken out by priority users. DD TTar -> Mach Loom / DD Gyara -> Espeed Lucario and it has coverage issers / DD Dnite -> Espeed Lucario + Bullet Punch Scizor. You can also reverse sweep them by running TR Zong. So essentially in DPP, you could get away with not using scarfers, but Garchomp mandated using scarfers, and when your scarfer is not guaranteed to take out Garchomp because of vulnerable it is to being trapped, that was a problem too. In BW OU also there are no real defensive answers to Garchomp. It can literally 2hko almost any mon there. Landorus can be taken down by Draco Meteor with Gem, or with SD + Aqua Tail. Rotom-Was gets nuked by Outrage. The difference is that BW OU has more revenge killers compared to it, which admittedly we don't have. But I think the ones we have are enough or are capable of doing the job. Regarding your calc, you used Icicle Crash on Scarf Mamo, when Icicle Spear would be the better option so as to break the Yache Berry first on the first hit. This isn't me saying you're wrong about Garchomp, but I just feel like regarding your arguments about centralization / lacking skill to use / ability to take out a mon -> these are all concepts that would apply to a lot of OU pokemon we currently have. Initially I thought Chomp was banworthy too, but after playing several OU games I just didn't have the same opinion. Personally, I find mons like Togekiss + Conkeldurr + Volcarona more banworthy.

I think he meant for Rotom-Heat since that's what is on most screen teams.

You'd have to play well with it because there are 50/50s you need to win. Let's say you sub vs an azumarill that bellydrummed. In order to stall out reflect, you will most likely sub again, but it can waterfall that turn, break sub, and then use Aqua Jet the next turn.

Whiscash would still hit like a girl under reflect, and loses to a bellydrummer. I was thinking of using Metapod with Iron Defense, you think it can work against Bellydrumers?

It's because I disbelieve your ideas I would like you to prove me wrong in practice. I have no qualms with admitting when I'm wrong, but that's not the case for you. Either you play the UU official or let me play it with your ideas / strats, because I can also make unfounded claims about a certain mon / strategy not being broken. I will take the effort of playing the official, and with the amount of time you spend online ingame or playing MM, you can surely build a couple of teams. You just won't do it because you'll get called out on the bullshit you spout. I have tried beating such strategies and it's because I've failed I've come to the opinion that this strategy is too good; it's not because I'm lazy or don't want to put effort at all, because I did try. If you don't care about me saying you're full of shit, then so be it because so far that's what it is.

Build me 3 teams with these mons / strategies you've suggested, and I will try them out in the Monday official. If you can't do that, then I'm going to presume you're full of shit because this is nothing but theorymon.

I edited my post earlier for further clarification. EDIT: Okay, so if opposing user has Scrafty, and Rotom locks into Overheat, what are you then going to run to set up vs Rotom-Heat that would then sweep the screens team?

Right, but there's no way for you to know which 6 is there prior to the game, so you'd still have to prepare for Scrafty.

How about you stop ignoring my request of you supplying the teams to me instead of simply spouting claims without anything to support your dumbass argument?

Yeah, maybe Empo beats Venomoth. Does it beat Scrafty? I'm just not sure what Mamoswine would offer to a sun team, or what its role would be in such a team. If you're running a sun team, you'd want something that either sets up sun, abuses sun, or takes out your sun answers, and maybe it's my ignorance, but what role does Mamo play in that team?

Agility Special Empo probably is going to be set up fodder for Venomoth (again depending on screen). SD Empo can definitely put in work, but I wonder how it fares vs Scrafty. Can you point me to a replay of a sun team that has run Mamo + Torkoal in it? I don't remember ever seeing such a combo and I would like to see its utility.

There are a lot of factors that come into play, such as what the remaining members are of the Mamoswine user's team, because accordingly the Electrode user will set up the right screen against it. What mon are we talking about that could set up and "gg" it? What kind of Empo are you referring to that would set up? SD? What kind of team would run Mamo + Torkoal?

But the turn following that is the most crucial turn since it decides if you can set up. "Mamo switches into Electrode, the Electrode user then goes to Rotom, and then they can Volt Switch / Overheat / Double Switch? " You may have to win a 50/50 there because Rotom can either Volt Switch into an incoming mon, or it can stay in and Overheat. If it Overheats, your Mamo dies (depending on if Sash and if broken) or something else comes in that tanks Overheat, but allows something in the screens team to then set up. That's then 3-4 turns remaining, which is enough.