[The tiering system needs to be updated to fit the current state of the game]

12 hours ago, RysPicz said:

tl;dr

 

Up to OU/BL instantly:

Torkoal I don't think Torkoal is the problem at hand, I can't remember it gaining anything new so let it rise with usage if it proves itself to be OU.

Venusaur Personally iffy on this one, it is great in sun but we already had other sun sweepers that could perform in a similar fashion albeit Venu is definitely the best one.

Serperior Why has this not been quick banned to OU?

P-Z Debatable topic, doesn't look like TC want to move it up either way.

Empoleon Roost is good but doubt it makes Empoleon a defensive uber in UU, let it rise with usage.

Machamp Why has this not been quick banned to OU?

Espeon HA is great but again it doesn't exactly make Espeon an offensive/defensive uber. Just really good utility, I'm sure OU usage will rise but I see no harm in letting it find a place in OU naturally. 

 

 

Did I miss anything?

In general I do believe that drip feeding HA's serves the best interest of the games lifespan but some are obviously much more impactful. Given adequate time and community feedback, I don't think it is a stretch to say anything obviously OP for a current tier will be pushed up by the TC. 

 

18 hours ago, gbwead said:

I believe the best way to handle usage movements would be with a 2 repetitive months cycle. For a pokemon to drop to a lower tier, that pokemon needs to be below 4% usage two months in a row. For a pokemon to rise to a higher tier, that pokemon needs to be over 5% usage two months in a row. No more first, second or third month. A pokemon that has proven to be worth something in a higher tier, can rise up to that tier every month. We wouldn't have to wait 3 months for every single time. This system also requires no extra work or effort from staff. The data is available in game and no calculations are required. I remember analyzing what the tiers would look like based on that system in 2020/2021; the usage movements would have made more sense and were more dynamic too.

 

Adapting a new system like this would be ideal if tiers are going to constantly have new HA's introduced. The whole varying usage dynamic between different months was also a bit confusing, it should be made clear to the players that a mon is changing a tier, especially if it just got something new (e.g. HA). 

Another issue I see coming is the addition of new Regenerator Pokemons. I implore devs to not let that happen. This will kill the competitive scene. I like stall and would love to have more regenerator mons, but in PokeMMO it would be complete madness if we have a 1 hour time limit rule + multiple regenerator mons. Games where players have to make plays to win will result instead in huge stall fest based on that 1 hour time limit rule win condition. I don't know if there are any plans to add more regenerator mons, but if that is the case please reconsider before it's too late. 

 

Time limit is dumb in general, we all know it was implemented to make tournaments run smoother but winning on timer is just scummy and not in the competitive spirit. I can't remember how it works in the later rounds of a tournament but at the very least semis and finals should have the time restriction removed. They aren't waiting on many players so I see no need for a timer restriction.

 

[[PSL 14] PSL Team Name and Prep before the auction. by Mkns]

RAPIDASHing through the snow
The boys ARBOK in town
SEAKING VICTINI
POLIswag
Losing is ONIX-ceptable!
EXEGGCUTE order 66
ESPEONage (Espionage)
Not all GLOOM and HOUNDOOM
MASQUERAIN party (Masquerade)
You SPINDA me right round

[August-Movement Discussion Thread]

On 8/1/2021 at 4:05 PM, Poufilou said:

From what I read from Rys, if you replace the word "broken" by "not fun to play", it makes way more sense. But is still a individual point of view. Assuming those arguments are subjective is a first step to have a healthier debate ?

I would like to stress this point, Dugtrio is a very unhealthy mon to have in the game full stop. It gets banned in some way or another in pretty much every gen on smogon (apart from gen 3 iirc). Removing autonomy from a player results in that player having a sour experience, I'd argue Dugtrio in any gen or tier could find a way to abuse this. While Dugtrio appears to not be performing that great that is irrelevant, Dugtrio is just there to remove some specific threat(s) to open up a sweep. Sure you can setup right away when it secures a kill (e.g. flying mon on locked eq) but the Dugtrio player decides if they want that to happen. If anything Arena Trap is the culprit in all of this, you could argue to revert Dugtrio's base attack nerf and to ban/nerf Arena Trap from the game after as some sort of solution. However, Dugtrio is currently NU and it would seem a bit weird to do something so drastic to a mon in that tier. 

In regards to my inactivity I guess I'm just bored of playing mons at the moment, there hasn't been any significant updates in a long while and I couldn't bring myself to keep repeating the same stuff over and over. Should I still be in the tc? I don't really know but I still lurk from time to time and gather my own opinion on things so take that as you will. 

[UU Teambuilding Competition]

https://pokepast.es/8355ded2cf59856d
 

Spoiler

 

Gastrodon: Picked Gastrodon because it was the slowest mon on the list, in order to make my strategy work I need to cheese my opponent to oblivion so when they see the team they will click x. If this thing comes in on a water move it will also do some big scald damage.

Bronzong: Set up rocks and/or trick room then go boom. 

 

Porygon2: Needed to get some points from Umbra by including the op P2 on the team. Also sets up trick room and can teleport to my powerhouse Gastrodon. Sadly I had to run eviolite on this mon so it had more bulk otherwise it would be another Quick Claw.

 

Abomasnow: Pretty good mon, rock slide to hit rotom and ice shard to go first if you're afraid of your skills.

 

Bronzong2: Sadly Bronzong's evolution does not get trick room but it has better offensive stats. Bullet punch is nice priority if you really need to make sure you go first but with this team you should be going first always anyway.

 

Drifblim: First thing I saw that was somewhat slow with defog, should tank some things decently and has some nice support moves.

 

 

[Remove hax items and hax abilities from competitive play.]

These "hax" items are always a controversial topic, in my honest opinion they are usually worthless. However, they are most definitely not useless as when they do work they will most likely have a huge impact. Sure it sucks having lost to a random mon outspeeding you or getting flinched by a Cloyster but I think it is important to understand there are necessary trades the user must take to use these items. For example, Cloyster (the most prominent user of Kings Rock) will be without a Focus Sash or White Herb, which would make setting up in the first place an issue. 

 

Now do I think these items are fair? Not really but you are more likely to get better use out less luck reliant items. The issue really arises when you have to constantly play against these and eventually succumb to one of these "strategies". These items hold a lot of power in lesser skilled players hands, I believe this is the root of the frustration as  they now have a chance of  beating a skilled player. These items are not consistent at all, you could win many times and never even know your opponent used one of these items. 

 

With that being said I do believe Kings Rock may need some more looking into. The flinch chance is consistent and could be used without setup if need be. 

 

As for the "hax" abilities I'm not really sure why they were reintroduced. Garchomp had Swords Dance removed so those abilities were somehow reintroduced, arguably Garchomp was the greatest abuser of a "hax" ability with Substitute + Swords Dance but it may still be a broken strategy. Just having the ability to dodge anything is insane on a mon like Garchomp, providing free turns to punish the opponent. 

[add the moves gamefreak "forgot"]

22 hours ago, AQA said:

why not we changed the meta already XD

they could add many new moves and ban some of them if they are too broken

The meta will always evolve, whether that is due to popularity of Pokemon changing or new updates it is not something new. The reason why we have access to newer movesets is because they are playable in the official games, just because a Pokemon has been data mined to have access to new moves does not mean it will 100% have access to it if it is reintroduced into gen 8. They could easily remove them with a patch or just not have that Pokemon available in the game at all. A good example of this is when hidden abilities were introduced in gen 5, Chandelure originally had access to Shadow Tag but was never made available. In later games this was changed to Infiltrator. 

[add the moves gamefreak "forgot"]

If they are not playable in the official games do not expect them to be added. 

[OU Tier Discussion Request Thread]

20 hours ago, Lvkee said:

TC's general thoughts on Conk? The meta has shifted to cover it so much that many teams are wide open for other threats now lol, i think this should be a testament to how much control it has over this tier

I'm still not a fan of Conk. Jellicent and Spiritomb are on the rise to deal with it but not nearly enough, they do both have merits outside of being a Conk counter but they aren't that great compared to the rest of the OU metagame. I am aware that Conk does somewhat suffer from 4MSS but often enough the combination of drain, mach, facade + stone edge/rock blast is enough to leave a dent or sweep a team mid to late game. Without the right tools this mon becomes unkillable with drain punch spam healing it back to a healthy amount to then punish the next mon in the way. But surely with Conk's popularity that would mean running a counter or two is necessary? Well obviously, the problem rears its head when the only real counters are Cofagrigus and Spiritomb; everything else is merely a check (or dead with a bad predict) until you scout the moveset of Conk e.g. tpunch + ice punch Conk would make short work of Salamence + Jellicent. I believe Conk invalidates a lot of mons from functioning so it should be looked into further.

[JOHTO CONFIRMED]

In all honesty it would be nice to have Jhoto but it essentially only offers the story, no new moves or Pokemon is a huge let down (I guess we would get some new hordes but that is very minor imo). It is inevitable that we will get Jhoto at some point but as a long time player it would be nice to finally get dungeons or something like weekly missions to change up the monotonous endgame game play. 

[OU Viability Rankings]

Quick changelog:

Conkeldurr to S from A+

Rotom Wash to S from A+
Garchomp added to A+

Reuniclus to A+ from A-

Tyranitar to A from A+

Ferrothorn to A from A+

Hydreigon to A from S

Blissey to A from B+

Salamence to A- from A

Togekiss to A- from A

Breloom to A- from B+

Pelipper to B+ from A

Jellicent to B+ from B-

Gyarados to B+ from A

Dugtrio to B+ from B

Mienshao to B from B+

Magnezone to B from B+

Gastrodon to B from B-

Porygon 2 to B from B-

Chandelure to B from B-

Swampert to B- from B

Kabutops to B- from B+

Mamoswine to B- from B

Darmanitan to B- from B+

Mandibuzz to B- from B

Heracross added to B-

Lucario to B- from B
Sigilyph added to B-

Venusaur added to B-

Removed Bisharp

Removed Umbreon

Removed Archeops

Electrode to C from B-

Haxorus to C from B-

Arcanine to C from B-

Removed Forretress

Removed Scrafty

Removed Smeargle

Removed Staraptor

[UU Viability Rankings]

Quick changelog:
Vaporeon added to A

Druddigon moved to A from A-
Scrafty moved down from A to A-

Linonne moved down to B- from B

Removed rotom mow and wobbufett

[PokeMMO Tier Council Podcast]

Edited the OP to include the second podcast.

[PokeMMO Tier Council Podcast]

14 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

Amazing, but dear god please change the font. It looks like a 5 year old discovering photoshop for the first time

I just used cooltext and picked one randomly, if someone could provide me with a better alternative I can change them up.

 

19 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

If you guys could get your volume levels balanced that'd be a good improvement. I had to basically put my ear on the speaker to hear Blue but then gb gave me two ruptured ear drums right after.

Yeah this should be sorted out in the next one, my voice was being recorded locally and my desktop probably had the volume set too high.

[PokeMMO Tier Council Podcast]

Hey, the Tier Council has decided to release a podcast to paint a better picture of our thoughts. Keep in mind this is the first one so we are open to suggestions. We hope you enjoy it!

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Please level 100 in tournaments!]

Forcing a level 100 restriction just makes the competitive scene a chore. This will invalidate perfect comps with a 30iv and cause unnecessary grind (some players have a lot of competitive Pokémon that would require a significant amount of time to train or rebreed). 

[PSL XIII - Week Three]

Me and Zokuru in 12 mins

[October-Movement Discussion Thread]

8 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

Can we get an official thorough explanation on why the TC has decided to ban Roserade now? I agree with the ban but I would really like the know the reasoning from the TC. Why is it acceptable that the TC can just ban something without saying anything about it. ESPECIALLY when the only voice we've heard on this topic is gb's and he is strongly against it.

By no means is this a post on behalf of the council but I will voice my short opinion here.

Roserade was running rampant in the tier with very few defensive switch ins. The combination of grass/poison/fire/psychic coverage leaves very few mons that can switch into it freely and even if they could they risk a possibility of a spike going up. Even the best answer being Eviolite Heat Proof Bronzor could get slapped by a Hidden Power Ground variant of Roserade. 
252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 54-64 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO (forces a rest which can be exploited)

Simply put there are very few switch ins, and you may have to play risky until you know it is not carrying a certain move, e.g. if no psychic coverage then Golbat can do well against it. 

 

I'd like to briefly talk about Roserade's speed tier of 90 as well, though its not amazing it is definitely workable within NU as it out speeds a variety of bulky attackers. However it is prone to being revenge killed (90 is a flimsy speed tier with lots of threats creeping it by 5 points) but by that point it has already done its job and will probably run. 

[[UU] Cony！Cony！(Thursday,1st Oct)]

This prize makes no sense, Lopunny isn't even relevant in UU.

[Outrage buff to 100BP? For science?]

It probably wont be buffed to 120bp (devs like to be consistent with the main games if they can) until we get fairy types so I wouldn't hold out hope for the near future.

[UU Viability Rankings]

Sorry it took so long for an update, I will update the OP at some point with the following changes:

Spoiler

 

⬇️ S rank to A+ Metagross 

⬆️ A- rank to A+ Krookodile 

⬇️ A+ rank to A Crobat 

⬇️ A+ rank to A Scrafty 

⬆️ A- rank to A Snorlax 

⬇️ A rank to A- Bronzong 

⬆️ B rank to A- Druddigon 
⬆️ B rank to A- Sigilyph 

⬆️ B rank to B+ Yanmega

⬆️ B- rank to B+ Venomoth 

⬇️ B+ rank to B Azumarill

⬆️ B- rank to B Alakazam 

⬆️ B- rank to B Torkoal

Added Exeggutor to B rank

Added Victreebell to B rank

⬆️ C rank to B Blastoise  

Added Dugtrio to B- rank 

⬇️ B+ rank to B- Weavile

⬇️ B rank to B- Machamp 

⬇️ B rank to B- Mismagius

⬇️ B rank to B- Typholosion

⬇️ B rank to C Eelektross

Added Wobbuffet C rank 

 

Removed Kabutops, Mandibuzz and Gastrodon 

 

Thanks again to @Umbramol

[PSL XIII - Player Sign-up]

• IGN: BlueBreath
• Reason: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• Preferred Tiers: OU but can play any if you got cash to make teams
• Competitive accolades (optional, although it certainly increases your chances of getting picked/having an higher salary): I'm bad trust me :(
• Other random stuff: Yes.

[OU Viability Rankings]

Update:

I will try to give a brief summary for reasons.

Spoiler

 

⬆️ A+ rank to S HydreigonDraco Meteor nukes a lot of teams.

⬆️ A rank to A+ Conkeldurr Access to Close Combat and Defog, although I believe Drain Punch is still the better option.

⬇️ A rank to A- Skarmory Just seems there are more special threats to take on but it is still good at what it does.

⬇️ A rank to B+ Kingdra It did gain Hurricane but it does not really help it that much, rain also has to worry about Teleport now.

⬇️ A- rank to B Dugtrio While I believe Dugtrio is uncompetitive, it is clear Garchomp is the best Ground type at the moment. 

⬆️ B+ rank to A Gyarados Power Whip gives it a tool for Milotic, Rotom Wash and Gastrodon which were some of its biggest counters.

⬆️ B+ rank to A- Reuniclus  Can win games solo and Stored Power is a buff to the Acid Armour set.

⬇️ B rank to C Bronzong Rarely seen and is very niche.

Unranked to C (not entirely sure where to place this) Wobbuffet Recently unbanned from ubers with a nerfed version of Shadow Tag.

 

Would also like opinions on Gengar and Rotom forms after gaining nasty plot. I will update the OP when a consensus is reached on those two.

[OU Viability Rankings]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:22 AM, ThinkNicer said:

Why is this thread ded. Conk and Hydra for S rank for reasons I don't have to state.

 

I don't know if Tyranitar deserves an A+ rank right now.  The meta seems very unfriendly to it at the moment. Conk, Garchomp and Scizor are everywhere and make life really hard for Ttar. Everyone and their mother running physical defense on most Pokemon because of Chomp doesn't help Ttar either. Sure its a strong Band user and the best pursuit trapper. But I feel like A rank is fine.

Will try to update this in a week or two, I want to gauge the meta a bit more first.

[[OU Suspect Test] Draco Meteor Hydreigon]

32 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

 

Woah I was just weighing in some input there, I ultimately agree with your stance. I was more coming from the angle of a Draco reversal since that is what appeared to inspire your post and it was newly introduced (most players are aware it could be removed/banned). And by no means did what I say was the “right” solution, sorry if my post came out the wrong way. I’m open to suggestions on how to tackle the issue but would prefer complex bans to be avoided if need be but understand that may not be a reality. 

[[OU Suspect Test] Draco Meteor Hydreigon]

10 hours ago, ThinkNicer said:

So, because we know the PokeMMO Staff has decided to not allow complete bans in OU. I propose the following complex bans:

Ban Draco Meteor on Hydreigon: a tool that makes Specs Hydreigon a nigh unwallable force, especially for balance teams. Because of the variety of its sets, it has also become more of a guessing game which set a player is running as well. Guess wrong and you possibly lose the game.

Ban Flame Orb on Conkeldurr: Guts is a powerful ability and the fact that burn only does 6% damage compared to the original 12,5% in Gen 5 is a BIG deal. It takes half the damage it is supposed to, and it was already an incredible force with 12% burn damage. Conk is extremely centralizing and I'm baffled that people aren't talking more about it. Almost no Ghost type can beat it and it will almost always trade up in a match. Not having flame orb restrict the user to toxic orb, which can cripple Conk way more. Sheer Force is still a very viable set.

Ban Swords Dance on Garchomp: Garchomp is still extremely viable without Swords Dance, as a rocker, mixed attacker, scarfer or band user. But the existence of Swords Dance means that Pokémon like Mandibuzz, Cofagrigus and Umbreon have moved up to OU to deal with the threat. Now as we have discussed above, if you can ban Draco Meteor on Hydra for being oppressive and centralizing then Garchomp absolutely fits that bill as well.

I agree that there is currently a problem with those mons you mentioned but I am unsure if complex banning everything is the right solution. In an ideal world we would have the fairy typing and the problem is pretty much solved but we realistically have no knowledge when or even if we get them. Even some legendary mons could fix the situation e.g. mew for conk, but that has the same problem mentioned earlier.

 

Now I’m not claiming that I know what the ideal solution would be currently, just I’m not sure complex banning everything is right. It could lead to more complex bans and when it comes to the point where we have so many complex bans it may be difficult to understand the competitive scene. If we do go down that path I would think Volcarona fills similar characteristics, would we complex ban quiver dance on it? Well that would mostly kill the mon but we know that quiver dance is the core issue on it. Similarly what if we ban the wrong aspect of the mon? Say with your Conkeldurr example that people start running toxic orb instead, sure it’s worse but effectively it still performs its job.

 

Overall I really like that you brought up this topic but complex bans appear to be a short term fix, if the main issue here is Hydreigon then maybe Draco should be banned again. Again, no clue what the right solution would be currently, I just hope we get more tools to deal with them.