BaldManGoat

So sucker punch + super luck absol + scope lens, is completely different? It promotes rng, but its not annoying so leave it alone? Considering night slash + super luck + scope lens is a higher crit chance than kings rock flinch, but since it is easier to play around we should leave it be? As an item alone they both promote rng in the same way, and are abused by certain mons in the same way. So we should keep some meme rng items because you're not losing to them, and they can be fun to see in a battle? It sounds nice to say lets keep it 50/50 rng/skill ratio but unless you get rid of crits/para hax there will always be more luck than skill in pokemon battling, the skill comes from the teambuilding. Let's just ban kings rock away from cloyster and keep it in the game then. Cloyster almost always need the shell smash to set up the kings rock win, absol could late game sweep without the swords dance, and just start going to town right away. The setup turn cloyster needs makes absol super luck a more brain dead strat in the end. The argument is missing, you can teambuild around cloyster and don't let him smash in your face and you can win with faster mons.

I was saying in general, I do not believe sand veil is such a problem that you would even need to team build around. However, there are options to deal with sand veil with other weather setters. Although I do agree it is a lot harder to play around, I still don't think it is player unfriendly enough to get a ban. I hate garchomp just as much as the next guy, but I also don't think it is something that is over the top of what you would expect from rng abilities. Consider flame body and static, in a rng based argument they are essentially the same as sand veil as to it is a chance where they will active on you. There are also other moves that don't check accuracy but they would fit into the same group as weather setters for the most part, or maybe even some compound eyes memes. As for quick claw, I have no clue what the argument is for it. "you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it", lets say I bring a specs torkoal into a battle under a trick room and blow up your entire team, is specs unfair because "who would've thought a torkoal would bring specs?" If you need to know what mons bring what for certainty why even team build anymore? Whether or not it actives is a 90/10% chance in your favor which means most of the times you face a quick claw you don't even know its there. Losing to quick claw is painful in it's own right but I don't see why we need to ban an item because it is unexpected that someone brought it, and 10% of the time it ends you. To me that is a balanced ratio, and if anything I'd gladly play against quick claw. The play around factor of a kings rock cloyster is to ohko it before the setup because of its lack of focus sash. Another way is to bring priority of your own because kings rock is nearly useless when forced into an ice shard situation, yes it can flinch with shard too but the odds are very small, and aren't truly effective(unless in a 1v1 at the end of a battle). Sucker punch goes before cloyster every time, but the only true sucker punch user that could beat cloyster is bisharp, and only if rocks are up. Other things like banded technician scizor also 2 ohko after rocks. Things like mach punch conkeldurr can play around them as well. Ideally the goal is to ohko cloyster before the setup to completely render it useless. There is ways to prepare for cloyster outside of tanking it, a well prepared team with 2-3 special attackers shouldn't even have to worry about no sash cloyster being a threat if played correctly(obviously given how the game plays out/team matchups). Preparing for scarf air slash togekiss is hardly different and the flinch chance being close to the same as well.

I was just pointing out reasons I believe they don't need a ban. I don't consider them to be unhealthy items either. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to be banned. I think they're both funny items you can troll around with for time to time, you can't just push for a ban on items when you dislike playing against them. That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched. I fail to see a true reason for banning or nerfing the items. I also don't think it really takes the "skill" out of it either, to begin with the battling itself hardly takes skill considering the crits and hax that take place in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax. Banning items because you don't like playing against them is not a good enough reason to convince people to actually ban it.

I usually just lurk, but I see no one pointing the possible obvious reasons these abilities/items haven't been banned. As for the abilities sand veil and snow cloak both have easy counters, and you should be well aware of them coming so there really should be no complaints about them, bring a weather setter of your own and problem solved. Things that have easy outplays and are known threats shouldn't be a ban because you can't build around it. As for quick claw and kings rock, I would much rather face kings rock cloyster than focus sash and even white herb for that matter. The fact that in order to bring a cheesey item like kings rock into play you have to sacrifice the focus sash. A cloyster without focus sash should pose so little of a threat to a player that knows how to play around cloyster that the kings rock they brought instead won't even have a chance to be put into affect. You people act like serene grace air slashes don't exist in the same tier as cloyster, do we have to ban togekiss from PVP because the players are crying about hax? Hax is apart of battling, and something we all should be use to losing against in some games. As for quick claw, I haven't had enough exposure to the item but it goes without saying that leftovers/berries/choice items are way more consistent than quick claw is. People need to sacrifice other better items to use the cheese, and no matter how much it hurts to lose to RNG it shouldn't be banned.